Serious discussion on next NSX

[satx]

Ferrari.com - the site lists the specs of their current and past cars. The 3380 lbs for the F430 may have been for the spyder, which is heavier.

Regarding Ferrari being an "offender" of claiming lower weights for its cars, where do you get that from?

3380lbs. was a coupe......ferraris ALWAYS weight more than claimed. It is either due to listing a dry weight or it is a lie. This is well known. HP is also overstated on almost all models with the f430 being the exception. I guess ferrari is realizing the impact of the chassis dyno and has decided to go "straight".......at least in that area.

 

[TC]

If Honda came out with a car that costs 120K and only has 350HP, they would be laughed at. I don't care what it weighs. The US market only cares about 1 thing....HP.

It's not just the US market - its the world market. European car companies make many more high HP models than US companies - 500+ HP is available from Mercedes, Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Lambo, Audi (upcoming R8), Aston, Maserati, Maybach and McLaren (and I'm probably overlooking a couple others). If you set the bar at 400+ hp, Mercedes alone has some 13 models that fall into that category. All these cars aren't made solely for the US - car enthuiasts around the world buy them. Why Honda has chosen not to make an engine with more than 290 HP is totally mystifying to me - 400 hp, decent fuel economy and low emissions is readily doable.

 

[BD]

If Honda came out with a car that costs 120K and only has 350HP, they would be laughed at. I don't care what it weighs. The US market only cares about 1 thing....HP.

The Z06 has set the bar. Honda needs to step it up.

You know that is not going to happen. I can't imagine Honda CEO pulling every one's leg by telling the world that they are builting a sports car for new era, with giant V10, and end up with Camery hp. Regardless, the car will be fast, extrodinary fast. For hp per dollar buyers, jump on the Z06 or Viper NOW:biggrin:

 

[Rennphile]

Ferrari.com - the site lists the specs of their current and past cars. The 3380 lbs for the F430 may have been for the spyder, which is heavier.

I'm afraid that Ferrari's site isn't the best place for unbiased information. The measured weight of 3,380 lbs was indeed for the F430 Berlinetta (coupe) not the Spider. Note that when C&D did test the F430 Spider in its June 2006 issue, it weighed in at 3,460 lbs. As bad as that sounds, it still considerably undercuts the Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder which weighed in at an astonishing 3,820 lbs!

Regarding Ferrari being an "offender" of claiming lower weights for its cars, where do you get that from?

The issue of optimistic claimed curb weights as well as horsepower and torque figures by Ferrari has been a longstanding practice that goes back many decades. I'm hardly the first to observe or call attention to it.

Also, the definition of curb weight is the weight of the car full of all fluids and a full tank of gas, no passengers and no cargo. Gross vehicle weight is the car fully laden with passengers and cargo. Car & Driver usually notes on its specs if the weight of the car is the manufacturer's claim (or estimate if the car is pre-production). Otherwise, the weight that they list is the weight of their test car (including driver and test equipment). Then they do some wacky "correction" of the results (for acceleration and braking) to account for the extra weight, temperature, roll-out, etc. That's why C&D usually posts the fastest acceleration times.

Your definition of curb weight is correct. But where are you getting your information about C&D including the driver and test gear in this calculation?

Here’s an excerpt from an article published by C&D in November 2002 that addresses this specific issue:


"Acceleration

Before testing any vehicle, we fill it with gas, check the fluids, and set the tires to the manufacturers' recommended pressures for light-load, high-speed running, if they are specified. Then we weigh it. At the test site we measure humidity, barometric pressure, and temperature. To eliminate the effects of weather on performance, we employ proprietary empirical correction factors to adjust all results to dry air at 14.7 psi and 60 degrees Fahrenheit using PsyCalc 98 software (www.linric.com) to crunch the weather data. Since cars run best in cold dense air, our correction tends to add time to results generated in low-temperature, high-pressure conditions and subtract time from hot-weather, low-pressure tests. To cancel the effects of the wind, all acceleration tests are run in both directions; the best runs in each direction are then averaged."


Here’s the link to the entire article for anyone who is interested. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2509/how-we-test-cars.html

Please note there is no correction for braking. But as far as using a correction factor for acceleration runs, it is probably the best way to directly compare and interpret field data gathered under a wide variety of conditions.

 

[Rennphile]

If Honda came out with a car that costs 120K and only has 350HP, they would be laughed at. I don't care what it weighs. The US market only cares about 1 thing....HP.

The Z06 has set the bar. Honda needs to step it up.

It's sad (to me at least) but you're probably right. Mainstream car buyers today do have some pretty rigid expectations and a big horsepower number ranks right up there with lots of cupholders and that "new car smell".

I guess I hold out hope that there might be broader acceptance of the less is more approach. For example, the Noble M12 GTO-3R may only have a paltry 360 bhp, but I doubt anyone would snicker at its 0 to 60 time of 3.3 seconds. I know comparing the Noble to any sports car made by a mainstream manufacturer isn't entirely fair, but it does highlight how potent a low weight design can be.

Please Honda, just make it light!

 

[AmigaOS]

"The Z06 has set the bar. Honda needs to step it up."

Read this:

S2000 Humbles ARC competitors

www.s2ki.com

 

[ericwgnsx]

Read this:

S2000 Humbles ARC competitors

www.s2ki.com


Nice!! Go Honda!!
Honda really got it right with the S2000 and NSX.
The CTSC on the S2000 really helped, I'm sure. For some reason though, Honda always seems to be a little timid when it comes to horsepower for all of their cars. Overall balance, and not HP, is the Honda way. (Although more HP is always better, and too much is just right!!!):biggrin:

 

[gene]

If Honda came out with a car that costs 120K and only has 350HP, they would be laughed at. I don't care what it weighs. The US market only cares about 1 thing....HP.

The Z06 has set the bar. Honda needs to step it up.

Set the bar? Is HP # all it takes to "set the bar"?
I hardly think a virtual copy of a "91" vintage body style is setting any sort of bench mark.

The current NSX is drop dead gorgeous, but I hope Honda hits another grand slam, not make a copy of a 16 yr. old design like chevy did with the current Vette.

Or is the bar you're writing of simply in the horsepower category....please expound.

 

[NSXGMS]

Set the bar? Is HP # all it takes to "set the bar"?
I hardly think a virtual copy of a "91" vintage body style is setting any sort of bench mark.

The current NSX is drop dead gorgeous, but I hope Honda hits another grand slam, not make a copy of a 16 yr. old design like chevy did with the current Vette.

Or is the bar you're writing of simply in the horsepower category....please expound.

Overall performance sets the bar and HP is an inherent part of that. All Honda has to do is get the car to go around a track faster than the ZO6. I really don't care what the HP is. But it's not going to happen with less than 450 HP unless the car weighs 2700 lbs which we already discussed is unrealistic.

I'm sorry, NetViper is 100% correct. The looks of the C6 are not in question here. It's already been discussed here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40102&highlight=compared+side

Performance of the car is in question. What a job Chevy has done. On a good day the ZO6 will beat the F430 around the track every time. And it costs 70K. That's the bar. Why build the new NSX if it's not going to be a groundbreaking showcase as it was the first time?

It's got to be faster than the F430, just as it was faster than the 348, which means faster than the ZO6, or it won't sell in the US market unless the price is well under 100K which it cannot possibly be with the technology, R & D and $$ that will be going in to it.

 

[WingZ]

Overall performance sets the bar and HP is an inherent part of that. All Honda has to do is get the car to go around a track faster than the ZO6. I really don't care what the HP is. But it's not going to happen with less than 450 HP unless the car weighs 2700 lbs which we already discussed is unrealistic.

I'm sorry, NetViper is 100% correct. The looks of the C6 are not in question here. It's already been discussed here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40102&highlight=compared+side

Performance of the car is in question. What a job Chevy has done. On a good day the ZO6 will beat the F430 around the track every time. And it costs 70K. That's the bar. Why build the new NSX if it's not going to be a groundbreaking showcase as it was the first time?


It's got to be faster than the F430, just as it was faster than the 348, which means faster than the ZO6, or it won't sell in the US market unless the price is well under 100K which it cannot possibly be with the technology, R & D and $$ that will be going in to it.

I don't know where you guy's get this thinking. When the NSX came out the ZR-1 out performed the 348 at the track and in 0-60. The NSX guess what? was not faster than the ZR-1, nor did it produce higher cornering numbers ( although it was faster than the vette in the slalom. Nice thing was they were about the same price.

The ZR-1 was pretty heavy back then at an as tested weight of 3500lbs. The NSX was an as tested weight 3000lbs. The NSX was able to stay close even with a 105 hp deficit by being 100lbs lighter. Some how I don't think a V10 NSX will be 500lbs lighter than the Z06 , but hey you never know:biggrin:

 

[timothyaw]

The Z06 is a very impressive car indeed. But I've been wondering something. Chevy uses displacement for big horsepower. I understand you have to have a large engine somewhat to make big horsepower. But it seems like other manufacturers can make similiar horsepower with slightly smaller engines. Corvette is up to what now in size, something like 7 liters?

Will they just keep increasing the engine size to get more horsepower? After awhile they'll be up to 10 or 11 liters, it's just crazy to me.

 

[NetViper]

Overall performance sets the bar and HP is an inherent part of that. All Honda has to do is get the car to go around a track faster than the ZO6. I really don't care what the HP is. But it's not going to happen with less than 450 HP unless the car weighs 2700 lbs which we already discussed is unrealistic.

I'm sorry, NetViper is 100% correct. The looks of the C6 are not in question here. It's already been discussed here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40102&highlight=compared+side

Performance of the car is in question. What a job Chevy has done. On a good day the ZO6 will beat the F430 around the track every time. And it costs 70K. That's the bar. Why build the new NSX if it's not going to be a groundbreaking showcase as it was the first time?

It's got to be faster than the F430, just as it was faster than the 348, which means faster than the ZO6, or it won't sell in the US market unless the price is well under 100K which it cannot possibly be with the technology, R & D and $$ that will be going in to it.

Exactly. This is not simply about HP. The Z06 ring time (7:43) is 13 seconds faster than the NSX-R (if you use the highly debated 7:56). That is impressive as hell.

 

[|Adeel]

That is impressive as hell.

The only reason that Corvette impressed me :tongue:

 

[lightguy]

The current NSX was/is a different beast from what the replacement will have to be.
It was/is a commercial flop.
It was lightyears ahead of its time.
Ferrari finally equalled it in the 360 yet it's nowhere near as fuel efficient.
Honda leads me to believe the replacement will be steel in an effort to reduce costs. The HP monkey will be fed.
I'm glad they are changing the name as there may never be a car so everthing (for its time) as the NSX. An automotive Camelot.

 

[NSXGMS]

Honda leads me to believe the replacement will be steel in an effort to reduce costs.

What leads you to believe this?

I have to disagree. Reducing costs isn't what the NSX is about. Once Honda has that mindset forget the next car competing with Ferrari or even being an exotic. Honda's style is not nor has it ever been a huge HP engine in a heavy car. I see no evidence to suggest that that is a viable route for Honda.

The NSX was a sales disappointment for two reasons: 1) crash of the global economy at the time of release and 2) Honda's failure to update/market the car properly over its lifespan.

Steel is moving backwards with technology. Aluminum and CF are today's technology, period. To regress after all the R & D already under the belt is illogical. And it would probably cost them more money and R & D to go back to the drawing board with old materials for this platform.

And how do you know Honda is changing the name?

 

[Shumdit]

And how do you know Honda is changing the name?

I was told by someone on the (works for a supplier) that he was also told the car would not be called the NSX. He knew about the V10 before it was publicly announced, so I see no reason to doubt him. He referred to it as Honda's spin on the Gallardo.

 

[annointed]

The Ford GT is a big car when compared to the NSX. Have you seen them side by side?

NetViper (iirc the user) had a pic of a Ford GT that he rented for a weekend (this past April 1st in fact) next to his NSX in his garage. The Ford GT was a much larger vehicle, especially in terms of width. The wheels also struck me as being insanely wide.

 

[NetViper]

NetViper (iirc the user) had a pic of a Ford GT that he rented for a weekend (this past April 1st in fact) next to his NSX in his garage. The Ford GT was a much larger vehicle, especially in terms of width. The wheels also struck me as being insanely wide.

Here you go.

 

[BioBanker]

Forget the new Z06 as being the bar, the new bar will be set by the 911GT3RS. That car beat the Z06 by 3 seconds. Sure its more expensive but man, what a hot'n'sexy machine that will rip pretty much anything anyone brings a new one. Mind you its way more dough, but you cannot cannot deny this beautiful monster.

I must have!

This is the car the next NSX must beat IMO.

 

[|Adeel]

997 GT3 RS is a TOTALLY different market...

 

[BioBanker]

Agree that the RS is more of a track car, and that the base GT3 is more aligned, but if you want to be the king of the segment, from a performance perspective, you have to be at, or ahead of, the RS. The GT3 isnt THAT far behind.

 

[clr1024]

Forget the new Z06 as being the bar, the new bar will be set by the 911GT3RS. That car beat the Z06 by 3 seconds. Sure its more expensive but man, what a hot'n'sexy machine that will rip pretty much anything anyone brings a new one. Mind you its way more dough, but you cannot cannot deny this beautiful monster.

I must have!

This is the car the next NSX must beat IMO.

Looks like its a gutted track car. Don't think thats a fair comparrison when the Z06 is rolling full stock. C6-R would be a more fair comparrison, guessing the GT3 would be eaten by that

 

[BioBanker]

Probably wouldnt be THAT far ahead of a GT3, which is awesome itself. Same HP. The RS is just 20kg lighter than the reg GT3 and BOTH are street legal in the US, when they hit the shores (RS spring 07).

Biggest advantage are aerodynamics/downforce and the race suspension.