Ski_Banker
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WingZ said:
S2000 was never meant to be a groundbreaking supercar, don't see how that relates with or without F1 driver's input. Makes me think of old Isuzu's with the "Tuning by Lotus" badge on the side :tongue:
Serious discussion on next NSX
- Thread starter WingZ
- Start date
S2000 was never meant to be a groundbreaking supercar, don't see how that relates with or without F1 driver's input. Makes me think of old Isuzu's with the "Tuning by Lotus" badge on the side :tongue:
Ski_Banker said:
Obviously you don’t know the whole story.
Ayrton Senna is in a way, employed by Honda, and he is closely associated with Honda because of the McLaren/Honda background. In fact, Senna holds financial interest with Honda because he owns some Honda Dealers in Brazil.
Senna tested the NSX while testing the F1 car at the Suzuka Circuit. And there were many testing sessions on and off-season. When Senna drove the first prototype in early 1989, he pointed out some major weakens of the chassis (body flex). The standard of chassis rigidity was low back in the day, and Honda used Ferrari 328 and Porsche 911 as their benchmark. The objective was to introduce a prototype to Senna for feed back, a prototype that has a greater chassis rigidity than the intend competitors. Senna pointed out all the weakness of the chassis, and discussed the enforcement area needed, which took Honda another 6 months to modify the chassis design. The reworked chassis was about 100lbs heavier than the original prototype because Senna felt it was necessary. That is why the NSX Coupe Chassis is still top rated against today’s super cars.
The suspension tuning was also a major part of Senna’s involvement; the handling characteristic of the car is a big deal because Honda wanted no knife-edge handling like the Ferrari and Porsche. Many have forgotten just how nasty those cars were to drive. Also, Senna insists on using the Yokahama tires as OEM equipment, which Honda rejected during the development, mostly because of the cost factor. So you can all thank Senna for those super fast wear OEM tires.
As for branding the car using Senna’s name? Of course it’s part of it, but the true nature of Senna’s involvement is to make the car better, to stand out, and to be special. If Honda really wanted to capitalize on using Senna as a Marketing tool, they would have introduced a Senna edition to salvage the drop in sales in 1993.
Are you aware of Michael Schumacher’s involvement with the Enzo?
Regardless what people have to say about Senna’s involvement is with the NSX, you cannot deny the fact that it’s a sweet ride, even after 15 years. This car set the bar so high that it took Porsche and Ferrari 10 years to catch up. In away, the NSX is still more superior with it’s drivability, construction, and reliability.
WingZ said:
What S2k has is that great engine. Many have argued the Chassis is not up to the ability of the engine. I owned a 2001 S2k before, and the chassis was scary when pushed to the limit. I spun out on many occasions because of the over steer. That is probably why Honda kept on updating the chassis to help the handling of the car to be more user friendly. Honda introduced the Type V model in Japan and Europe to help solve the problem with the snappy chassis.
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WingZ said:
How about a 7+ liter V12, carbon fiber body weighing 2700 pounds? Pagani's the name.
Z06...another huge displacement engine. Weight of car? Just over 3100 pounds.
What's with all the porkers (Carrera GT, Enzo) using carbon tubs/panels, and tipping the elephant scales over 3200? They must be running somewhere near 1/4 ton of ballast, right?
Next gen NSX should be a v10 hybrid with awesome gas mileage, lightweight, SH-MR, dramitic/timeless design, priced just right. now that would be groundbreaking.
Maybe the body will be non flamable magnesium for the new groundbreaking technology? Magnesium is lighter than aluminum for that matter. Does anyone know if mag wieghs less than carbon fibre?
Or better yet, maybe they will use the forging process for an even lighter and stronger alluminum body...hmmm...i like the sound of that.. NSX - first to use forged alluminum chassis, body, and suspension :biggrin:
I really hope the new engine will be a high revving V10 with at the very MINIMUM an 8500k redline!!! And maybe use forged titanium internals. Maybe an electronic adjustable cam height when in race mode to lower the cams a couple mm to push the valves open more :tongue:
OK...i'm starting to dream but Honda should consider the forging process. The first NSX saw no budget to be groundbreaking, lets hope for the same for the successor.
Or better yet, maybe they will use the forging process for an even lighter and stronger alluminum body...hmmm...i like the sound of that.. NSX - first to use forged alluminum chassis, body, and suspension :biggrin:
I really hope the new engine will be a high revving V10 with at the very MINIMUM an 8500k redline!!! And maybe use forged titanium internals. Maybe an electronic adjustable cam height when in race mode to lower the cams a couple mm to push the valves open more :tongue:
OK...i'm starting to dream but Honda should consider the forging process. The first NSX saw no budget to be groundbreaking, lets hope for the same for the successor.
If I had to bet on the weight of a next-gen NSX I would put my money in the 3150-3250 range.
The car will probably be a GT car and that is the minimum to be able to offer a V10 and some of the luxury space a GT car requires...
The car will probably be a GT car and that is the minimum to be able to offer a V10 and some of the luxury space a GT car requires...
MoreRPMs said:
The Zonda rules, but at $400K, not many NSX owners could afford it!
FYI, the Z06 beat the Zonda around the Top Gear track. While that is not really a scientific measurement, it shows how fast the Z06 is.
SoCalDude said:
I have seen them both near each other not side by side and the GT is bigger. I don't have a good side by side picture, but this may help as a GT showed up at the last NSX meet we had in Orlando. Still not the best vantage point but it may help.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=616739&postcount=74
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- 4 October 2002
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- 569
According to this article, no more SH-AWD for the V10 NSX replacement. The SH-AWD system can only take up to 350 HP.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/67806/new_civic_type_r_is_here.html
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/67806/new_civic_type_r_is_here.html
Silver F16 said:
That's good news! Now hopefully their wrong about the next NSX chasing Aston Martins. Unless this is the other ( r.e secondary ) sportscar. Then it's okay:biggrin:
Ski_Banker
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Vancehu said:
Thanks for pointing out a few specifics - I wasn't aware of Senna's direct inputs. But, it still does not change the fact that he was not an engineer. He was an extremely knowledgeable driver that could help the engineers find problems (ie, there's too much body flex). Porsche, Ferrari - they all employee world class drivers to test their products and help refine them. Think about it, if only the "best" could do the task of pointing out design flaws (and not just any top driver), then only the "best" would be able to tell if there was a flaw at all. As for his relationship with Honda - well, obviously it was his boss. Of course he is going to drive an NSX as his daily driver (free, I'm sure). Lots of sports stars own auto dealerships, so of course Senna would have Honda dealerships rather than MB, BMW, whatever.
Let me be clear: I'm not questioning his F1 supremacy. Or that of the NSX when it came out. I'm just saying that the NSX isn't what it is BECAUSE of Senna, and that without him alone (not some other top driver helping), the car wouldn't have been just as revolutionary.
Ski_Banker said:
Come on now! Anyone who's ever driven an S2000 will tell you it's a "super" car:wink:
you know what? NSX need more hp for sure.
500hp won't ruin NSX's balance as long as the car is made right.
Here are some good examples...
Ferrari F40, F50 and Enzo
McLaren F1
They all kept their balance right.
However Lamborghinis aren't that good when you talk about the balance because they're too heavy and stuff. Also Dodge Viper isn't that good too according to Mario Andretti.
500hp won't ruin NSX's balance as long as the car is made right.
Here are some good examples...
Ferrari F40, F50 and Enzo
McLaren F1
They all kept their balance right.
However Lamborghinis aren't that good when you talk about the balance because they're too heavy and stuff. Also Dodge Viper isn't that good too according to Mario Andretti.
Vancehu said:
Did someone dig him up and revive him?
Osiris_x11
Gold Member, Moderator: Marketplace
Honda-Acura 'supercar', please!
- What did the NSX introduce in 1990/91 that was void or absent in the automotive industry and the exotic/high-performance_sportscar market?
- To what degree was the NSX ahead of it's contemporaries upon release, and the years to come?
- Since release of the NSX, what innovations/advancements/technology has trickled down to other Honda/Acura vehicles?
- Currently, what is considered a baseline or prerequisite for an exotic/high-performance_sportscar?
- What possibilities (realistically) exist that aren't in production or can be greatly improved/excelled upon?
- What are core values & fundamental principles that the manufacturer, namely Honda, adheres to w/o compromise?
- In current times as well as the future, what are the major issues & concerns in the world of the consumer?
- What is the purpose of creating such a platform?
- What anticipated & tangible results are sought?
- Are their other contigencies at hand influencing/dictating the advancement of this project?
Answering those questions broadly or analytically should offer some insight towards what direction the NSX-replacement / HSC-concept / Honda-Acura supercar will be headed...
(atleast it'll remove the the talk of a 3.9L 50-valve V10, 550bhp, 9750rpm, 7-spd. sequential-shift, 2700 lbs., full carbon-composite, 20" wheels, ceramic-discs, active-spoilers, multi-adjust susp, 32.5mpg, and 3-cupholders [one for each seat]... :tongue: )
- What did the NSX introduce in 1990/91 that was void or absent in the automotive industry and the exotic/high-performance_sportscar market?
- To what degree was the NSX ahead of it's contemporaries upon release, and the years to come?
- Since release of the NSX, what innovations/advancements/technology has trickled down to other Honda/Acura vehicles?
- Currently, what is considered a baseline or prerequisite for an exotic/high-performance_sportscar?
- What possibilities (realistically) exist that aren't in production or can be greatly improved/excelled upon?
- What are core values & fundamental principles that the manufacturer, namely Honda, adheres to w/o compromise?
- In current times as well as the future, what are the major issues & concerns in the world of the consumer?
- What is the purpose of creating such a platform?
- What anticipated & tangible results are sought?
- Are their other contigencies at hand influencing/dictating the advancement of this project?
Answering those questions broadly or analytically should offer some insight towards what direction the NSX-replacement / HSC-concept / Honda-Acura supercar will be headed...
(atleast it'll remove the the talk of a 3.9L 50-valve V10, 550bhp, 9750rpm, 7-spd. sequential-shift, 2700 lbs., full carbon-composite, 20" wheels, ceramic-discs, active-spoilers, multi-adjust susp, 32.5mpg, and 3-cupholders [one for each seat]... :tongue: )
Shumdit said:
His spirit lives on!!!:biggrin:
Senna died on May 1st, 1994. His last involvement with the NSX was the NA1 NSX R, which was introduced in 1992.
Ski_Banker said:
Some times, that what the engineers need. Imagine every production cars out there received input from top notch race car drivers. Can you name another car that was aid by F1 driver, other than NSX and Enzo?
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Re: Honda-Acura 'supercar', please!
Advanced valvetrain technology utilizing tech trickled down from F1 might enable them to achieve what you've written below...
They've just gotta up the displacment to at least 4.5 liters :wink: . And when they do 550hp will be a cakewalk.
Osiris_x11 said:
Advanced valvetrain technology utilizing tech trickled down from F1 might enable them to achieve what you've written below...
Osiris_x11 said:
They've just gotta up the displacment to at least 4.5 liters :wink: . And when they do 550hp will be a cakewalk.
Ski_Banker
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Vancehu said:
No, not specifically I can't. And yes, I agree - if real drivers didn't test the prototypes that goofy engineers put out, there would be a problem. But, as stated before, I'm 99% sure that Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc. employ world class drivers for product testing.
While I appreciate the point that I did not buy my NSX purely for power, it would be nice to have some. Imagine how cool it would be if the NSx had come standard with even 350-380 hp like the Ferrari F355 has. The NSX would have been an even more amazing car, and much more capable of competing on the global stage. Consider how many people here on Prime have spent well over $15,000 trying to make the NSX faster and fix the one shortfall that it has......no real kick in the pants speed!!
I have been debating for a long time now to go 'all or nothing' with my NSX. Either I am going CTSC or just leaving the car alone and buying something else to satisfy my need for speed. It would be great to see Honda come out with a version of the NSX with over 400 hp and watch as it dominates the sports car scene all over again. How cool would that be? The headline, 'The NSX has set the standard for the sports car market....AGAIN,' and watch what happens.
I have been debating for a long time now to go 'all or nothing' with my NSX. Either I am going CTSC or just leaving the car alone and buying something else to satisfy my need for speed. It would be great to see Honda come out with a version of the NSX with over 400 hp and watch as it dominates the sports car scene all over again. How cool would that be? The headline, 'The NSX has set the standard for the sports car market....AGAIN,' and watch what happens.
TC said:
Remember there are often significant discrepancies between what a manufacturer will claim and the actual measured weight of a production car in U.S. trim full of fluids. Ferrari is probably the worst offender here although not alone.
For instance, you mention the 355 is actually lighter than the NSX coupe. Can you cite your source(s)?
Please bear in mind the F355 Berlinetta (coupe) Car & Driver tested in March 1995 weighed in at a rather portly 3,268 lbs. For comparison, the NSX (coupe) tested by C&D in April 1994 weighed in at only 3,030 lbs.
And despite Ferrari's quote of 3,197 lbs for the F430, C&D also measured its weight at 3,380 lbs (coupe albeit F1 equipped) in its August 2005 issue.
NetViper said:
The technology is certainly there despite increasing regulations and I don't think the car would have to be as diminutive (or raw for that matter) as the Elise. Unfortunately as TC mentions, the market would likely favor power over light weight.
NetViper said:
I agree. I think the Z06's weight is quite an achievement, particularly when you consider the strength required for things like driveline and suspension components to manage the engine's prodigious torque.
NetViper said:
3,000lbs would be great although I'd love it if somehow Honda could make the car even lighter!
My dream NSX would:
1. incorporate the quality, comfort and usability of the current car.
2. remain RWD (please no AWD).
3. be light weight – ideally 2,800 lbs or less. It’s not about absolute power but a healthy power to weight ratio that really matters.
4. have a minimum of driver aids.
5. favor function over form where important and in keeping with the ethos of the current model. For example, please no 20 inch rims with wide tires that compromise both ride and handling.
6. produce 350 to 400 bhp.
7. sell for no more than $100K (maybe $120K tops).
8. have manual steering.
The car I've described would occupy a unique place in the sports car market, but I doubt my dream NSX would be a sales hit as I recognize my preferences lie pretty far outside the mainstream...
I'm not picky.. Just so they have the Type R version finally available.. 
- 2550-2675 lbs wet
- Minimalist Enzo Like Interior (No PW, PL, PM, etc...) ideally with a center
seat driving position. It is so hard to find a good one seater these days in the show rooms.
- One Din MP3 Player is allowable as an added option.
- Composite Latest Tech Chassis Construction- Hydroformed Bonded Aluminum or CF Tub Mid or Rear engine RWD design.
- Good stock aero, under tray, splitter, hood, wing, rockers.
- In Board Push Rod Suspension, adjustable dampeners with external canisters, far lower roof line (< 40"), wider track, entirelly non-compliant design, anti sways, etc..
- Ceramic Composite brakes, race inspired ABS, dual master cylinders
- Tight Ratio Manual Steering Rack
- Halon, 6pt belts, seats, quick release, roll cage, air jacks, cut-off, etc..
- GT500 class Toda power plant except now reliable, perhaps Indy inspired V8 with 11K RPM redline, dry sump, and Honda Zero Maintenance Guarentee
- Center lock magnesium racing wheels with say some Bridgestone R Compounds
- Maybe a Honda Sequential or 7 speed F1 (little better than the one in the FIT)
- Some new colors that aren't so bland..
- Factory backed race support
umm.. how does 88-125 grand sound? :biggrin:
- 2550-2675 lbs wet
- Minimalist Enzo Like Interior (No PW, PL, PM, etc...) ideally with a center
seat driving position. It is so hard to find a good one seater these days in the show rooms.
- One Din MP3 Player is allowable as an added option.
- Composite Latest Tech Chassis Construction- Hydroformed Bonded Aluminum or CF Tub Mid or Rear engine RWD design.
- Good stock aero, under tray, splitter, hood, wing, rockers.
- In Board Push Rod Suspension, adjustable dampeners with external canisters, far lower roof line (< 40"), wider track, entirelly non-compliant design, anti sways, etc..
- Ceramic Composite brakes, race inspired ABS, dual master cylinders
- Tight Ratio Manual Steering Rack
- Halon, 6pt belts, seats, quick release, roll cage, air jacks, cut-off, etc..
- GT500 class Toda power plant except now reliable, perhaps Indy inspired V8 with 11K RPM redline, dry sump, and Honda Zero Maintenance Guarentee
- Center lock magnesium racing wheels with say some Bridgestone R Compounds
- Maybe a Honda Sequential or 7 speed F1 (little better than the one in the FIT)
- Some new colors that aren't so bland..
- Factory backed race support
umm.. how does 88-125 grand sound? :biggrin:
Rennphile said:
Ferrari.com - the site lists the specs of their current and past cars. The 3380 lbs for the F430 may have been for the spyder, which is heavier.
Regarding Ferrari being an "offender" of claiming lower weights for its cars, where do you get that from? Also, the definition of curb weight is the weight of the car full of all fluids and a full tank of gas, no passengers and no cargo. Gross vehicle weight is the car fully laden with passengers and cargo. Car & Driver usually notes on its specs if the weight of the car is the manufacturer's claim (or estimate if the car is pre-production). Otherwise, the weight that they list is the weight of their test car (including driver and test equipment). Then they do some wacky "correction" of the results (for acceleration and braking) to account for the extra weight, temperature, roll-out, etc. That's why C&D usually posts the fastest acceleration times.
I think he said the 3380 was an F1 Coupe they tested. Not taking sides, just clarifying.
Rennphile said:
If Honda came out with a car that costs 120K and only has 350HP, they would be laughed at. I don't care what it weighs. The US market only cares about 1 thing....HP.
The Z06 has set the bar. Honda needs to step it up.
