This car is causing so much divide. It must be good. Just like our elections...:biggrin:
reviews are out
- Thread starter brucewinter
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fastaussie
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I'm looking forward to fastaussie actually driving the car so we can hear his opinion instead of those of his famous friends. I guess in the meantime We People will just have to listen to actual owners.
Ps. Fastaussie, do you know if they cause those people who robbed Kim k yet?
you're farking hilarious. not sure what you do for a living, but i reckon you should absolutely be a comedian! :wink:
NetViper, the NSX isn't as good as the rest, so what's your conspiracy theory?
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you honestly think Porsche and Ferrari "quickly upped their performance" in anticipation of the NSX?
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if only it was so easy to turn it up?
if it was, they would have done it already mate...
Yes I do.
They knew a new NSX was coming and it was in their best interest not to be seen as lagging in performance to a new technology.
The cost of falling behind the new NSX with hybrid technology would be detrimental to their marque and would require a great deal of capital to catch up.
However boosting performance in the current product line buys them time to see how the new NSX fares and would save considerable capital at a time when Volkswagen is having corporate issues.
However you don't buy this logic so perhaps you could explain why you don't think Volkswagen made any defensive moves.
fastaussie
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i don't think they specifically fear the NSX as you do.
i believe they're simply on their normal cycle of producing a superior car to their previous model. Ferrari, Porsche, Audi, etc., are all in the business of producing better cars relative to themselves and their competitors.
they're each gonna make the best car they can within their 3 or 4 year development cycle. i can't imagine any of them were solely concerned with besting the new NSX...
i believe they're simply on their normal cycle of producing a superior car to their previous model. Ferrari, Porsche, Audi, etc., are all in the business of producing better cars relative to themselves and their competitors.
they're each gonna make the best car they can within their 3 or 4 year development cycle. i can't imagine any of them were solely concerned with besting the new NSX...
No conspiracy theory, just want your opinion instead of Kim and kourtneys.
I am pretty hilarious though.
Actually I don't fear the NSX at all. :smile:
Perhaps you're too young to remember the effect the original NSX had on the sports car market in 1991/92.
It did raise the bar and cause some anxiety in within European manufacturers.
I'd argue a company making large profits in a very small market segment would definitely be keeping an eye on their competitors, particularly one with a new technology in their price range.
Would Ferrari be overly concerned?
An esteemed marque with a modern product line that neither Honda (nor anyone else?) can compete with so not likely.
Porsche?
More so than Ferrari I'd wager.
Their 911 turbo is still a king but what about the more bread and butter 911's which can't compete with the NSX.
Do you not think there is some risk of loss of 911 sales to the NSX?
The 911 (non-turbo) represents the majority of volume and profit no?
Audi/Lamborghini
I'd suggest the R8 has the most to lose in this race and Audi made sure their top model remained competitive.
If the R8 falls behind the NSX the Lamborghini line also takes a hit.
Big risk in my mind.
The upside for Porsche/Audi/Ferrari to compete with a new entrant is not great and requires capital with not much return.
Capital and marketing dollars spent without a price increase in order to maintain market share.
However the downside is enormous.
As many are quick to point out the NSX is not leading the pack at the moment and it will likely effect sales.
If the shoe was on the other foot and the NSX was leading the pack the effect on the Volkswagen group would be large.
Anyway enough said on the point.
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It's hearsay, but the rumour was that this motor, being bespoke, was designed with racing in mind. That is where my opinion of head room comes from. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the boost levels are very conservative as well. So yes, I think that a 50hp bump would be a doodle for a manufacturer, if not a moments work. it is boosted after all, and not NA. So if Acura are true to their word that they will develop this iteration of the NSX, then a bump in power for the next model year should be considered a given, not a maybe.
But then again, it is Honda/Acura we are talking about.
I think it would be best for Honda to start refining the new NSX immediately if it's going to last in the supercar segment that it has landed in today. More hp, and less weight should be the goal atm.
The rest of the package, looks and handling in particular could use more refinement also as expected in the upcoming years.
With all of that said, I think the new NSX is a very nice entry in the mid-engine category. Many reviewers have reveled in the new tech the NSX has bestowed while a few other track-oriented reviewers are questioning if it truly could be lighter/faster as Germany and Italy have been dominating the arena for quite some time.
The rest of the package, looks and handling in particular could use more refinement also as expected in the upcoming years.
With all of that said, I think the new NSX is a very nice entry in the mid-engine category. Many reviewers have reveled in the new tech the NSX has bestowed while a few other track-oriented reviewers are questioning if it truly could be lighter/faster as Germany and Italy have been dominating the arena for quite some time.
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fastaussie
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but that shoe isn't on the other foot is it?
i'm completely aware of the effect the original NSX had on the Supercar status quo. and the subsequent way that the Europeans and especially Italians changed (or were forced to change) the way they build their cars, most notably with increased livability and reliability. that is absolutely not in question.
but as has been said lately by the automotive press, this NSX isn't a game changer.
my point is that i don't think Porsche, Audi, and especially Ferrari are building their cars worried about what Honda is doing. seemed Porsche wasn't the slightest bit concerned when they left their cheeky little note wishing Honda good luck. and just as we all knew how far behind Honda was, you can guarantee all of the other manufacturers were well aware of it also. i could be wrong, but i don't think Porsche is at all concerned about selling less 911's, or Audi with selling less R8's...
yup.
you can turn the boost up fairly easily, but then you have to take the time to get all the electric motors, electronics/stability controls, torque fill, chassis balance, etc. to work in harmony all over again. not an easy task. if it was, it would've been done already...
yup...
I doubt Volkswagen is too worried about the new NSX right now either. I expect they are plenty busy trying to clean up the mess their criminal leaders have created for them. Any company can make mistakes. What Volkswagen did was no mistake. Just because the results of their flagrant scam aren't immediately evident, doesn't mean that we all won't pay the price of their shitty polluting pieces of crap. I never had much use for their products, and I sure as hell wouldn't buy anything they make now. They have totally demonstrated the amount of respect they have for their customers, and society in general for that matter.
This is a competitive space. All market participants worry about "the market," and not just any one competitor. Any OEM can honestly claim "I am trying to build better cars, and am not focused on competitor XYZ" but, of course, they are. I think all supercar makers are evaluating hybrid drivetrains, for instance. An NSX was first in this segment-- an important accomplishment. That doesn't mean they are "worried" about the NSX, as such. Just worried that they will fall behind the "market."
It would have been shocking if the NSX had emerged as the fastest car in the market with an all-new car after a 12 year absence (especially at this price point). The NSX did not shock the world in this manner. But "failure to shock and awe" is not the same as failure. And also not the same as disappointing reasonable expectations.
In terms of exceeding expectations and getting other OEMs to take notice, I think the R35 GT-R and the C7 Z06 are more notable than the new NSX.
It would have been shocking if the NSX had emerged as the fastest car in the market with an all-new car after a 12 year absence (especially at this price point). The NSX did not shock the world in this manner. But "failure to shock and awe" is not the same as failure. And also not the same as disappointing reasonable expectations.
In terms of exceeding expectations and getting other OEMs to take notice, I think the R35 GT-R and the C7 Z06 are more notable than the new NSX.
I don't think Ferrari was worried at all about the NSX when they designed the 488. They were and are worried about McLaren. Those cars compete in the same price range for the same customers. Now Ferrari still has the best brand in the business so no matter how good the P14 is, Ferrari won't have any trouble selling 488's for the time being. But they definitely did not want to get left behind by where the market is going.
That's one of the downsides of complexity, so many more permutations to test for. One good thing is that they're using more simulation to help them to winnow down the amount of stuff they have to test on the road. The expertise they gained while testing the NSX should be useful when developing variants as well as when/if they develop any other sports cars.
Exactly this. The ICE engine is not pushing the limit on specific output, but more power would require the NSX team to go through another lap of their testing program. They take the handling of the car very seriously in that they don't want the eSH-AWD and stability control systems to endanger the driver in any scenario. This is why owners can't go and change the handling parameters independently.fastaussie said:
That's one of the downsides of complexity, so many more permutations to test for. One good thing is that they're using more simulation to help them to winnow down the amount of stuff they have to test on the road. The expertise they gained while testing the NSX should be useful when developing variants as well as when/if they develop any other sports cars.
I really doubt that dialing in 10% more maximum output from the ICE would change anything, other than eat into their engineering margin of safety. If the handling tuning is really so sensitive, then simply limit the additional boost to when the wheels are relatively straight and/or lateral Gs are below a threshold. That should do it.
That said, I agree that, in the real world, such changes aren't made late in the development process. It is reasonable to assume that Honda is ALREADY testing variants of NSX with higher output for release in a couple of model years as a "R Type" or whatever. But that is true of every sports car ever introduced, right (first iteration of platform leaves room for improved premium versions and/or limited lower-cost versions)?
That said, I agree that, in the real world, such changes aren't made late in the development process. It is reasonable to assume that Honda is ALREADY testing variants of NSX with higher output for release in a couple of model years as a "R Type" or whatever. But that is true of every sports car ever introduced, right (first iteration of platform leaves room for improved premium versions and/or limited lower-cost versions)?
I'm not convinced that adding boost will require automatic remap of the electric motors.
First of all, it may have been done already as we know that there are versions of the existing motor out there with more power. Anyone think the Pike's peak car was the stock drivetrain?
Does the 2wd NSX race car use the same engine?
I don't for a second think that porsche or Ferrari are worried about a very low volume product from a company that specialises in hatch backs. You can see where ferrari's concerns are. That's why the 488 is twin turbo charged and producing 680bhp, just after the 675 came out.
Ferrari will be worrying about McLaren, not about Honda.
I think there are too few NSXs out there for their impact to be felt, but there's no question, the car has not turned the industry on its head like the GT-R did. Porsche without question sat up and took notice, that's why their 0-60 times plummeted and they started introducing launch control. At the same time, Nissan started trying to improve interior comfort in a bid to meet Porsche in the middle, albeit for much less money.
I don't think honda are trying to compete with the current crop of cars. At circa 3.0 and 7.0 to 60 and 100, there's not much left to give the supercar buyer. The supercar buyer isn't a hypercar buyer generally, and so that's the NSX's usp.
It's the first supercar that offers what the latest hypercars do, but makes it available to the "normal" rich guy as opposed to the superrich guy.
I still want more power though!
First of all, it may have been done already as we know that there are versions of the existing motor out there with more power. Anyone think the Pike's peak car was the stock drivetrain?
Does the 2wd NSX race car use the same engine?
I don't for a second think that porsche or Ferrari are worried about a very low volume product from a company that specialises in hatch backs. You can see where ferrari's concerns are. That's why the 488 is twin turbo charged and producing 680bhp, just after the 675 came out.
Ferrari will be worrying about McLaren, not about Honda.
I think there are too few NSXs out there for their impact to be felt, but there's no question, the car has not turned the industry on its head like the GT-R did. Porsche without question sat up and took notice, that's why their 0-60 times plummeted and they started introducing launch control. At the same time, Nissan started trying to improve interior comfort in a bid to meet Porsche in the middle, albeit for much less money.
I don't think honda are trying to compete with the current crop of cars. At circa 3.0 and 7.0 to 60 and 100, there's not much left to give the supercar buyer. The supercar buyer isn't a hypercar buyer generally, and so that's the NSX's usp.
It's the first supercar that offers what the latest hypercars do, but makes it available to the "normal" rich guy as opposed to the superrich guy.
I still want more power though!
Stated this before, but surprised Honda passed on rear axle steering in their SH-AWD on the '17 NSX.
After owning a '13 991 C2S rear wheel drive (no RAS) and then to an AWD '15 TT w/it, it is amazing how well it works
in cornering.
'17 991.2 S models offer it as optional in both C2S & C4S in addition to the GT3/TT/TTS models where it's included as standard equip.
Tests of the '17 991 in major publications, have said the rear axle steering is a huge benefit in handling.
After owning a '13 991 C2S rear wheel drive (no RAS) and then to an AWD '15 TT w/it, it is amazing how well it works
in cornering.
'17 991.2 S models offer it as optional in both C2S & C4S in addition to the GT3/TT/TTS models where it's included as standard equip.
Tests of the '17 991 in major publications, have said the rear axle steering is a huge benefit in handling.
fastaussie
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Porsche is on top of the shit, full stop.
no excuses, or shoulda/woulda's coming out of their range...
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it's got absolutely nothing to do with the NSX.
it has to do with meeting European emissions and MPG requirements (more stringent than America), and their own horsepower goals...
no excuses, or shoulda/woulda's coming out of their range...
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it's got absolutely nothing to do with the NSX.
it has to do with meeting European emissions and MPG requirements (more stringent than America), and their own horsepower goals...
Agreed. I suspect it is a null set, but no one should buy the new NSX if they have never owned a 911TT and if getting the NSX will preclude them from owning one in the future. In other words, I don't think the NSX (or the R8 or a McLaren) is a "mandatory bucket list" car in the way a 911TT is. New Ferraris are in a different price bracket, so I would not say the same thing about the 488.
The trouble with the 911 is the engine will always be in the wrong place.
ferrari is bucket list for me, mclaren is not. Porsche is common or garden.
ferrari is bucket list for me, mclaren is not. Porsche is common or garden.
Kind of like having the steering wheel on the wrong side....
One affects handling and polar moment etc. The other doesn't.
fastaussie
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you've never driven a modern 911 then...
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and by your own admission, your beloved GTR is all wrong also...
Do 991 carrera 4s, turbo, gt3 and gt3 rs count as modern?
Sorry I forgot to ask your permission first to allow me to have my own opinion.
if you read what I wrote in post immediately above, I was referring to the fact that lhd vs rhd doesn't have an absolute effect on handling. The position of the engine does, whether you like it or not.
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Do you know anything about drivetrain layout at all? I know you tell us you are a special driver but are you an engineer of some kind?
the gtr is front mid engined. Even if it were front engined, it has a huge heavy gearbox at its rear end to help its weight distribution. That wouldn't help its polar moment, but as it happens the centre of mass of the engine is behind the front axle.
in the 911, the engine is behind the rear axle, the gearbox is at the back too. I'm not saying Porsche hasn't done an amazing job but they've had to fight physics all the way.
give them a clean sheet and what happens? Mid engine! Boxster, GT and 918.
The 911 is rear engined because it's unique in its class and always has been rear engined. It's also a winning formula and a huge sales success for a business who like making money!
Sorry I forgot to ask your permission first to allow me to have my own opinion.
if you read what I wrote in post immediately above, I was referring to the fact that lhd vs rhd doesn't have an absolute effect on handling. The position of the engine does, whether you like it or not.
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Do you know anything about drivetrain layout at all? I know you tell us you are a special driver but are you an engineer of some kind?
the gtr is front mid engined. Even if it were front engined, it has a huge heavy gearbox at its rear end to help its weight distribution. That wouldn't help its polar moment, but as it happens the centre of mass of the engine is behind the front axle.
in the 911, the engine is behind the rear axle, the gearbox is at the back too. I'm not saying Porsche hasn't done an amazing job but they've had to fight physics all the way.
give them a clean sheet and what happens? Mid engine! Boxster, GT and 918.
The 911 is rear engined because it's unique in its class and always has been rear engined. It's also a winning formula and a huge sales success for a business who like making money!
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fastaussie
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gees, everyone is so touchy lately. get some girlfriends or something will 'ya boys! :biggrin:
yes, i know what you were referring to. i come from a country with right hand drive cars. and yes, i completely understand the effects of a where an engine is placed in a chassis relative to handling and polar movement. mass centralisation. and if you've driven a modern Porsche, you would also know that whatever magic voodoo they're employing in Germany, it is certainly working because their cars perform and handle in superlative levels of amazing...
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p.s. explain an antiquated ICE, 420 horsepower 911 Carrera lapping an identical time to the 573 horsepower hybrid-techno wonder, mid-engined Supercar of the future? it would appear that engine in the back isn't hurting anything.
yes, i know what you were referring to. i come from a country with right hand drive cars. and yes, i completely understand the effects of a where an engine is placed in a chassis relative to handling and polar movement. mass centralisation. and if you've driven a modern Porsche, you would also know that whatever magic voodoo they're employing in Germany, it is certainly working because their cars perform and handle in superlative levels of amazing...
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p.s. explain an antiquated ICE, 420 horsepower 911 Carrera lapping an identical time to the 573 horsepower hybrid-techno wonder, mid-engined Supercar of the future? it would appear that engine in the back isn't hurting anything.
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Maybe lap time isn't the only criteria for designing a car?
its not that I'm touchy, it's just you are the most sanctimonious forum contributor I've ever had the displeasure to read. The annoying thing is that there are nuggets of wisdom in your posts.
its not that I'm touchy, it's just you are the most sanctimonious forum contributor I've ever had the displeasure to read. The annoying thing is that there are nuggets of wisdom in your posts.
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