NSX sequel decided: 6 cylinders

[Cambo]

Even for NSX fanatics, the new one is a very tough sell.

Yeah, even for you guys in the USA who get your NSX's CHEAP!

I think $254k for an NSX-T in Australia is a little laughable. An S2000 is $75k but can be had for $70k with bargaining...

Theres a 2002 NSX-T for sale with 314km (demo) for $199k. I think there were something like 3 sold last year... !!

Cam

 

[mlambert890]

holy smokes! for comparison, how much are average cars?

 

[Cambo]

What would you like to know prices on?

Honda Accord Euro (ie US Acura TSX) starts at $34,750 + ORC inc Tax, and for the "Luxury" goes up to around $45k + ORC.

My Integra Type R sold for $39,990 + $2,000 for A/C + ORC.

A base model Holden Commodore 3.8L V6 is $31,650 (Auto) + ORC. This is Australia's most popular family sedan. In 5.7L GenIII V8 form (SS), it's $49,490 (manual).

A Subaru WRX STi is $56,630.
A BMW M3 is $141,500.
A Porsche 911 Turbo is $308,900.

It's a little annoying that you can nearly buy 5 WRX STi's for the price of an NSX, and that the 911 Turbo is only $50k or so more.

Cam

 

[POWERED by HONDA]

Cambo, is there an AVI, MPEG, WMV of your avatar? Looks cool!

 

[Cambo]

It's the Advert for the DC5 Integra Type R in Australia - well, a small bit of it anyway - I'll see if I can find the MPEG of it for you, and I'll post a link if I do...

 

[Animate]

Cambo: Does the government apply a "sports car duty". I can't imagine the manufacturers would demand such a high price. Or perhaps there are specific safety/emissions requirements that make importation impractical for low volume cars.....

 

[Daveg27]

Which would you rather have:

1. V6 400 HP gas: 17/24

2. V8 400HP gas 11/13 -- like ferrari's..

You really think a 400hp V6 is going to get 17/24 MPG? Gas mileage has nothing to do with how many cylinders an engine has and barely anything to do with displacement.
Case in point:
S2000 2.0L I4 mileage: 20/26 mpg
Corvette 5.7L V8 mileage: 18/25 mpg
Wow, big difference.

Fuel economy is much more dependent on gearing and weight.

Don't really agree here. Look at the Lotus Esprit when it "caved in " and went V8. It resulted in a heavier, not balanced and worse car than the S4, which was a 4!

Well, I didn't say it couldn't turn into a worse car. It's certainly possible that Honda could screw it up, just look at the latest Civic SI. Ferrari on the other hand has bumped displacement on their V8 cars with every successive model and the cars have gotten better and better. Let's keep optimistic and hope Honda does surprise us with something special. A V8 doesn't automatically mean big and heavy, that's all I'm saying.

 

[The REAL nsxtasy]

It's a little annoying that you can nearly buy 5 WRX STi's for the price of an NSX, and that the 911 Turbo is only $50k or so more.

The relative prices are very different from the States, where you can only buy about half as many (i.e. 2.5) WRX STIs for the price of an NSX, but the 911 Turbo is 50 percent more than the NSX.

 

[Tony Montoya]

Cars are too expensive in Australia.

I plan to sneak across the US border and lease an 04 NSX from the Acura dealer in Fargo ND. Then it's a quick blast to freedom from there.

 

[Cambo]

The relative prices are very different from the States, where you can only buy about half as many (i.e. 2.5) WRX STIs for the price of an NSX, but the 911 Turbo is 50 percent more than the NSX.

Indeed. Which makes me wonder why the NSX is so expensive...

Theres a luxury car tax thing for cars over $55k - but that would be the same for the Porsche and the NSX.

Back to the original topic though - MOTOR magazine Australia recently did a comparo between the Nissan R34 GTR N1-spec and the HSV GTS300 Coupe (300kw GenIII V8). The GTR Skyline is meant to produce 206kw (JDM Gentleman's agreed figure) but on the dyno it produced more than that figure at the wheels!!

I think this gentlemans agreement thing has pretty much gone out the window lately though. I'd like Honda to build the next NSX with a 4.0L Flat-Plane V8 with S2000-type specific output...

 

[Tony Montoya]

Great idea about the flat plane crank. If Honda builds a V-8 they should make it sound like a Ferrari. Some cars just sound so nice.

 

[Cambo]

Flat plane has some pros over cross-plane engine design...

First and foremost - weight. Due to the counterbalancing required in a cross-plane V8, Flat Plane V8's weigh comparatively less...

But they are less smooth in some ways... meaning Honda probably wouldn't consider it as an option.

Check this article:http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm

Cheers
Cam

 

[Silver F16]

A flat plane (180 degree crank) V8 will have more vibration than a 360 degree crank V8, however, it will still be smoother than inline 4s, such as in S2000. IF honda goes V8 with next NSX, the proper way is to use flat crank. tiny engine vibrations in sports cars are acceptable. The sound and slight perfomance advantages should drive this. If Honda use the lazy 360 crank, off firing V8, forget it, I'll take a V6 instead.

Honda lack of developing a production V8 is getting ridiculous. Toyota, Nissan, and even Mitubishi has a V8. Mitsubishi has in the home market. I even heard Hyundai has a V8 under development. We all know Honda likes to do more with less, but that philosphy doesn't jive well in the luxury or exotic car market. If they keep this up, pretty soon, everyone's going to think Honda doesn't make V8 because they don't know how. Give us a small block V8 with 3.5 liter. The small displacement will satisfy the tree huggers and the high tune flatcrank V8 well fullfill the performance enthuiasts.

 

[KGP]

Give us a small block V8 with 3.5 liter. The small displacement will satisfy the tree huggers ...

Sure, I'll take the V8 3.5, but not because the tree huggers might like it. Let them buy what they want, and I'll buy what I want.

 

[BITeR]

Seemes like some people here just want the V8 for bragging rights. "I have a sports car with a V8! Your car only has a 6??"
If bragging righs is all you care about, then there are a lot of "number" cars that will beat the NSX on paper.

Who cares about cylinders.
For one, a v8 will always weigh more than a v6.
If there is a new NSX and it has a V6 that can compete with v8's or more likely beat them, I say this is the way to go. More cylinders is more mass and will not be as rev happy as a 6 or even a 4.
If Honda can produce a 400 lb v8 the 6 will probably still be 20% lighter. More weight needs bigger brakes which weigh more and needs a bigger engine etc. Perfect harmony between weight and power is what a true sports car should be all about.

I do agree that the output of that V6 should be above 350 and I have no doubts that it will.

And I'll assume the "why does the NSX cost so much?" question is a wish for cheaper cars rather than a "I don't understand why it cost so much."

Look at any car with all aluminum chassis and body (if you can find one) Look under your car and take a look at the aluminum wishbones (belong in an art museum). Look up how much titanium cost per pound. Find any car that will hold it's pieces together for 12 + years and still look like it just drove out from the factory.
That's why. Exclusive Quality.

 

[BITeR]

One more thing.
I hope people realise that a horsepower (or cylinder) war is not necessarily best for the car.
Take Mercedes AMG and Audi RS projects. They just want the highest output right now, and they dont' care about how the cars gain more and more weigh up front. Handling will be affected by this, but hey they won the HP war.
This is a result of finance and marketing people driving the car development (no offence). I bet if the engineers would have a say, the horsepower wars would have stopped a long time ago.

I don't want to see this, and I hope it doesn't happen.
If the new NSX is best with a v8, then fine, let there be a v8, but if it will make it a worse car I don't want to see it. If the only reason for a V8 is selling more cars, the finance people have won again, like they usually do.

 

[Z0650TH]

BITer,

You make very valid points, but you have to remember that many V8's in all-aluminum form do not weigh any more than a 6-cylinder.

Take the upcoming Audi S4 (beautiful car if you are looking for a high performance limited production sedan). The new V8 will generate 340 HP versus the previous S4 making only 250 HP from a twin turbo V6. The weight of both power plants is virtually identical. So the car's balance and therefore handling is not adversely affected.


Just my .02

 

[Joel]

Ok, time to jump in again.

The next gen NSX should not deviate from the $90k price range.
$90k in 2003 is not the same as $90k in 1991 (I know the NSX were priced for less than that back then but this is for argument's sake). If demand started out high back then at that price range, I don't see any reason why consumer's attitude will not be replicated for the upcoming model. The reason people desired the NSX so much 12 years ago is because Honda pushed the envelope for build quality in exotic cars. Hell, it practically slapped Ferrari in the face and said "Come on, I dare you!" And since then Ferrari and other makes answered the call. In 1991, there was NO other car that offered itself BETTER than the NSX, period.

Dipping down into the Corvette price range would not do the NSX any favor. It will only mess up the supply & demand curve because it will be that much more attainable. And as we all know, we enjoy that certain rarity that comes with the car--at least I do. They need to raise the bar from where it currently sits now, not lower it.

In order to justify another $90k price tag or maybe even more (which is considerably "cheaper" nowadays given inflation), Honda needs to tap into that well again and introduce a new generation of NSX that will once again WOW the market technologically. Technology sells and Honda once knew it. And how do you sell technology? Performance. The NSX has always spoken for itself and continues to stand its ground even today when the tables have turned and now these other cars are doing the taunting.

Come on, Honda. Let's see what you've got.
**SLAP** "I dare you!"

 

[Silver F16]

If one wants V8 for bragging rights, they do sell Mustangs and Camaros for a lot less. For the upper market, bragging rights start with v10 and V12s. If a company is chasing after this market, bragging rights is part of the equation. Who in the right mind actually need a 650 horsepower V12 sports car. Consumers buy in this segment because they want EXCESS. They want excess power and an engine that says "I am king". Excess is something Honda doesn't understand and yet they continue to pursue with sales failures such as the RL and the NSX. Granted many owners, including me, appreciate the NSX for what it is, without the excess. Unfortunatly, the market for this is small, and that lies the problem of making the NSX successful from a revene standpoint. Given the auto market conditions, I doubt Honda will produce another exotic car which generate no direct profit other than bring people into their showroom to buy RSXs. Those days are gone. If you are going to bring a car to market, it needs to be profitable.

V8 engine is not exotic enough for "bragging rights". They are too common. What is exotic for V8s are the 180 degree crank. Only Lotus and Ferrari still use it in production cars. The music a 180 crank V8 makes is truly a masterpiece. Listen to a modern Ferrari engine while revving and you'll understand. It's not always about bragging rights, that isn't why most people buy NSX. It's about owing a very special vehicle. And the engine need to be a big part of that unique package.

 

[mlambert890]

There is one very important and noteable exception to the above - the 911GT2. Word has it that Porsche may be releasing an 8 for the 997, but as of today, they're using a super high output 6 and staying competitive with engines twice the size. Plus, few cars can beat the 911GT2 on the track and it is always regarded as an exotic. Of course I think FI is required to get that kind of power out of a 6 and FI would dramatically change the character of the NSX. Hmmm... tricky...

 

[BITeR]

Take the upcoming Audi S4 (beautiful car if you are looking for a high performance limited production sedan). The new V8 will generate 340 HP versus the previous S4 making only 250 HP from a twin turbo V6. The weight of both power plants is virtually identical. So the car's balance and therefore handling is not adversely affected.

Just my .02

I see where you are going, but you are comparing an old vs. a new engine. I'm sure the new S4's V8 with 2 less cylinders will still weigh 20 % less. Also two turbos weigh quite a bit.
See the difference? V8 with decent power is easier and cheaper than a high tech, light weight V6 with same output.

I do still not agree with the Excess argument. I understand people who buy for bragging rights, but I will not buy a car for that reason no matter what. That's what made the NSX special in the first place.
I quote an old statement "Performance on paper says nothing about real world performance."

Also the NSX is not priced to compete with V12 big buck cars like the Zonda. Read this article and I'll brag about a V6 with half of everything beeing compared to a V12. Now that's bragging rights!
http://www.jexoticar.com/www_docs/Jexoticasite/soundandvideo/evonsxr.htm

 

[Rai Zero]

Well here's my 2c. V6 but drop the price 30%

Let's go back in time to the introduction of the NSX. First year they sold 3000 this dropped sharply the second year and fell off the earth since then. This was not only the NSX, the Supra, RX-7, 300ZX all had steep drop offs but those other three drew the line and stopped selling when the sales volume tanked.

So the new cheaper 350Z debuts affter a several years and will sell more in one year than the entire previous gen did in 4-5 yeaars.

Now I think the key to the next NSX is affordability. I'm not saying it has to be as cheap as a corvette but that would be a huge step in the right direction.

I think they should keep the NSX in the fat part of the sports car pool with the Corvettes/Boxster S/M3 etc.. If the NSX was fighting against the Boxster S ($50-$60K) I think it would be selling 2-3K cars a year instead of 2-300 cars a year.

So if that means giving up it's expensive aluminumin body that's fine with me. The MR-2 Spyder weighs about 2300 lbs (steel). I think it's possible to do a V6 mid engine steel car weighing less than 3000 lbs. The Boxster S is one example (250 hp). Put the 3.2L 290hp NSX engine in a 2900 lb car price it at $60K and it'll sell at least as well as the Boxster.

 

[NetViper]

A v6 and dropping the price would be a great idea for a new sports car. But I would then suggest not calling it NSX. If it performed along the lines of the Boxster S, that should keep up the resale of the NSX. Just my thoughts..

 

[NSX UNITED]

Now I think the key to the next NSX is affordability...

Affordability is a good point, meaning it's NOT meant for everybody to afford one. I'd say keep it at 90k if there's a new one, 100k will be even better.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Tony Montoya
I plan to sneak across the US border and lease an 04 NSX from the Acura dealer in Fargo ND.

You can't.

And it's quite aside from the question of whether there will, or won't, be a 2004 NSX.

Why?

Because there's no Acura dealer in North Dakota!!!