New Forced Induction, New Numbers

I don't post much, don't have any agendas, don't like turbos, hate to type, and I think I am known as a pretty down to earth guy. I also had the opportunity to inspect the car, from top to bottom, at NSXPO. I did not see anything but a turbo and a methanol reservoir. Hopefully that sets me up to be an unbiased observer.

I think if you shift the dyno plot 700-800 rpm higher (to the right) it is no different than some of the other dyno graphs I have seen in the past on built motor, large turbo, NSX's, plus he has the methanol.

I have also had problems with the tach signal on some of my dyno runs, as much as 1000 rpms off from dyno to tach to ECU. I also have dyno charts from two different dynos showing as much as 80 horsepower difference on the same set up.

Armando did make a mistake on reading his dyno graph but he was busy ducking all the attacks.

This is where I will set myself apart from all other "opinions". I have raced the car in question and both of us had passengers. We rolled on starting in third gear and Armando was 3-4 cars ahead before I shifted to fourth. I have a six speed and I am putting 300 ft lbs and 400 hp to the ground on the conservative dyno.

So I don't know how much more power a motor needs to be making before it leaves your ass like that, but I am sure there is a formula to figure out the HP based on my brief encounter.

Joe
 
jdnsx said:
... it is no different than some of the other dyno graphs I have seen in the past on built motor, large turbo, NSX's, plus he has the methanol....
Click to expand...

The use of methanol is potentially being misinterpreted - it is not an oxygen source; what it can do is make for a 'richer' (or higher octane) mixture in lieu of additional fuel (gas) when mixed with the water spray, to further reduce the potential of detonation; it will do nothing for torque or horsepower.
 
jdnsx said:
I don't post much, don't have any agendas, don't like turbos, hate to type, and I think I am known as a pretty down to earth guy. I also had the opportunity to inspect the car, from top to bottom, at NSXPO. I did not see anything but a turbo and a methanol reservoir. Hopefully that sets me up to be an unbiased observer.

I think if you shift the dyno plot 700-800 rpm higher (to the right) it is no different than some of the other dyno graphs I have seen in the past on built motor, large turbo, NSX's, plus he has the methanol.

I have also had problems with the tach signal on some of my dyno runs, as much as 1000 rpms off from dyno to tach to ECU. I also have dyno charts from two different dynos showing as much as 80 horsepower difference on the same set up.

Armando did make a mistake on reading his dyno graph but he was busy ducking all the attacks.

This is where I will set myself apart from all other "opinions". I have raced the car in question and both of us had passengers. We rolled on starting in third gear and Armando was 3-4 cars ahead before I shifted to fourth. I have a six speed and I am putting 300 ft lbs and 400 hp to the ground on the conservative dyno.

So I don't know how much more power a motor needs to be making before it leaves your ass like that, but I am sure there is a formula to figure out the HP based on my brief encounter.

Joe
Click to expand...

What everyone is missing in this "off by 700-800 rpm" story is that both the torque, hp and BOOST correlate at the same rpm, even if there is some "delay in pressure readings". It really doesn't matter if the 330 ft-lbs came in at 3600 rpm instead of 2800, as the boost level would have shifted as well. The top end power of 714 was never in question. Can you explain the 330 ft-lbs on essentially no boost at those rpms with gas, methanol, water alone?

Frank already confirmed that nitropropane was in the mix for this particular dyno run so I don't know why you are in denial of that fact. Call him a liar if you want, but I think he was being sincere and forthright when he confirmed the nitropropane. As for what was in Armando's car when you saw it, I don't doubt nitromethane wasn't there then. The evidence we all need to look at is the torque number(330 ft-lbs) at nearly zero boost on that particular dyno run, not what Armando has in his car today or even the day after the dyno run. THIS IS ESSENTIALLY NA TERRITORY! Anyone who can't see this HUGE HUGE anomaly, probably shouldn't be boosting their car. If you do see it and you're protecting Armando, then please continue to boost in denial.

Regards,

Danny
 
jdnsx said:
Hey Ken,

I understand there is no oxygen, but timing can come up and intake temps can be very low.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

The point is, you need oxygen to form a combustion. You can have all the gas, methanol, timing and low temps you want, but no O2 equals no explosion. The amount of air (O2) that the NSX motor can breath in at 2800 rpm (I'll even give you 3600) on no boost (equals NA equals not any more O2 than most built NA motors) is just not enough to give you those torque numbers. That is why I was quick onto the usage of "an Oxygen supplement, ie NOS, nitropropane, nitromethane". NOS, Nitromethane and nitropropane each carry oxygen, although the later two require less volume in the combustion chamber, making even better than NOS or air at lower rpms.
If the purpose of forced induction is to squeeze more air (aka Oxygen) in, how else is Armando getting more air (O2) in when his turbo isn't even boosting yet? Methanol has nothing to do with this oxygen requirement. The top end number of 714 rwhp was never in question although now that we are on that subject, yes I believe the Nitropropane helped there too. If you say there is only one tank for the methanol and water reservoir, then the "mix" that helped on the low end was also still on and running at the end of the run. BTW, nitropropane is mixed in with the methanol and distilled water.

Regards,

Danny

Regards,

Danny
 
If the chart were truly 7-800 rpm off, then the math illustrated in my earlier post goes out the window; it would appear that the numbers for both the 2800 & 7200 support the mathematical equation, thereby suggesting that the rpm matches up pretty close.

a) The 'top' curve at 2800 viewed as torque:
Reading from chart, that would make HP = ~175; TQ = ~ 335

Then the equation would be HP = (335*2800)/5252 = 178 which is ~ 175

Graph & Equation fit!

b) Let's now say for arguments sake that the chart is moved to the right & those TQ& HP readings are now 3600 rpm:

Then the equation would be HP = (335*3600)/5252 = 229 which is NOT ~ 175!!

So I think the rpm would appear to be placed just about right!

I don't really care if secret sauce was used or not - I have no reason to doubt the chart indications are accurate; what is odd is that the tuner says, yes there is a secret sauce, the owner says no way, it's all pure honest grunt.
I don't even think there is any onus on anyone, owner or tuner to say what the secret of the numbers is, but it appears to not really hold water (double entendre absolutely intentional!) to say that it is pure unadulterated performance without some external source, be it boost or some other additional Oxygen source.

Perhaps the key lies in not what he is saying but not saying; Armando said quite vehemently supported by large $$$ that there nothing is in his "injection system" but water & methanol, and that there was no NOS system; now NitroPropane conveniently mixes with gas (whereas NitroMethane must be used stand-alone) - maybe that's the answer?
Perhaps it was mixed in the tank, not the spray?
(In which case, then it was helping all the way through the rpm range)

I'm not accusing anyone of anything - just analyzing the 'data' & then going fishing! :biggrin:
 
I put all the charts together since it made it easier to look at for the most part.

overlayul6.jpg



obviously blue line = psi
red line= tq
green line= hp
pink line = where PSI is = 0 so look below that line

'secret sauce' or not, i just wanna know what has been done to get this kind of off-boost power... 255hp@ ~ 3700rpm @ 0 boost?
 
lowellhigh79 said:
The BIG DEAL is misleading people. Intellectual honesty- Frank (Armando's builder/tuner) has it, but Armando doesn't.
Regards,

Danny
Click to expand...

I admited to making a mistake reading the dyno, Im not the most savy when it comes to the technical aspects of why things work the way they do, but I am savy enough to be able to pick who to right the checks to. I edited what I wrote about your avatar but you still chose to post it. Nice. As far as my avatar it has nothing to do with either Frank or his business. Ill redyno the car soon and you can shoot holes in that one also, if you ever bring your car to Miami, Ill show you what the rear end of a methanol injected turbo charged white NSX looks like.


Armando
 
MiamieNeSeX said:
I admited to making a mistake reading the dyno, Im not the most savy when it comes to the technical aspects of why things work the way they do, but I am savy enough to be able to pick who to right the checks to. I edited what I wrote about your avatar but you still chose to post it. Nice. As far as my avatar it has nothing to do with either Frank or his business. Ill redyno the car soon and you can shoot holes in that one also, if you ever bring your car to Miami, Ill show you what the rear end of a methanol injected turbo charged white NSX looks like.


Armando
Click to expand...

Armando,

It IS the technical aspects of "why things work the way they do" that we are having this discussion. Your claims and the data just won't fit.
You are taking this way too personally. This has never been about you and I have nothing to gain nor protect (as someone on this thread had suggested) by criticizing you or your achievements. I read posts all the time, and aside from posts related to my USCC win, the only time I regularly chime in is when a critical point of view is needed. It doesn't serve anyone on this board if "positive" conclusions are made based on improbable or faulty information, especially something this far out.

Aside from the distractions:

1) Dyno reading abilities (which you brought up)
2) Professional racers' NSX motors to prove BIG hp is possible(which you brought up)
3) Refuting what your builder told the rest of this community about nitropropane (but you chose to re-qoute him later)
4) And now a street race between our cars (which you just brought up)

You still have not given a cogent explanation of how 330 ft-lbs at 2800 RPM OFF BOOST is remotely possible on Air, gas, methanol and water alone. Please add how 714 rwhp is possible with 13 psi of boost without nitropropane when the only two other motors out there capable of this power (mine and FX) will require at least 17-18 psi. I would assume the amount of flow of your heads and intake will need to be at least 15-25% better than either of our race heads and intake. How is this possible. Keep in mind we are now comparing race NSX heads to modified NSX heads, not Supra heads.

Frank laid this issue to rest a while ago. You need to know more about your car, dyno data, and tuning principles before you reanimate something like this thread. Being able to write checks doesn't help here.

Regards,

Danny
 
D'Ecosse said:
If the chart were truly 7-800 rpm off, then the math illustrated in my earlier post goes out the window; it would appear that the numbers for both the 2800 & 7200 support the mathematical equation, thereby suggesting that the rpm matches up pretty close.

a) The 'top' curve at 2800 viewed as torque:
Reading from chart, that would make HP = ~175; TQ = ~ 335

Then the equation would be HP = (335*2800)/5252 = 178 which is ~ 175

Graph & Equation fit!

b) Let's now say for arguments sake that the chart is moved to the right & those TQ& HP readings are now 3600 rpm:

Then the equation would be HP = (335*3600)/5252 = 229 which is NOT ~ 175!!

So I think the rpm would appear to be placed just about right!

I don't really care if secret sauce was used or not - I have no reason to doubt the chart indications are accurate; what is odd is that the tuner says, yes there is a secret sauce, the owner says no way, it's all pure honest grunt.
I don't even think there is any onus on anyone, owner or tuner to say what the secret of the numbers is, but it appears to not really hold water (double entendre absolutely intentional!) to say that it is pure unadulterated performance without some external source, be it boost or some other additional Oxygen source.

Perhaps the key lies in not what he is saying but not saying; Armando said quite vehemently supported by large $$$ that there nothing is in his "injection system" but water & methanol, and that there was no NOS system; now NitroPropane conveniently mixes with gas (whereas NitroMethane must be used stand-alone) - maybe that's the answer?
Perhaps it was mixed in the tank, not the spray?
(In which case, then it was helping all the way through the rpm range)

I'm not accusing anyone of anything - just analyzing the 'data' & then going fishing! :biggrin:
Click to expand...

D'Ecosse,

Good point about the rpms. As for the nitropropane, he did specifically deny ever using it. As for the wager, I'm sure he's not using it in the mix now, so it's a sure bet for Armando.

Regards,

Danny
 
jdnsx said:
I don't post much, don't have any agendas, don't like turbos, hate to type, and I think I am known as a pretty down to earth guy. I also had the opportunity to inspect the car, from top to bottom, at NSXPO. I did not see anything but a turbo and a methanol reservoir. Hopefully that sets me up to be an unbiased observer.

I think if you shift the dyno plot 700-800 rpm higher (to the right) it is no different than some of the other dyno graphs I have seen in the past on built motor, large turbo, NSX's, plus he has the methanol.

I have also had problems with the tach signal on some of my dyno runs, as much as 1000 rpms off from dyno to tach to ECU. I also have dyno charts from two different dynos showing as much as 80 horsepower difference on the same set up.

Armando did make a mistake on reading his dyno graph but he was busy ducking all the attacks.

This is where I will set myself apart from all other "opinions". I have raced the car in question and both of us had passengers. We rolled on starting in third gear and Armando was 3-4 cars ahead before I shifted to fourth. I have a six speed and I am putting 300 ft lbs and 400 hp to the ground on the conservative dyno.

So I don't know how much more power a motor needs to be making before it leaves your ass like that, but I am sure there is a formula to figure out the HP based on my brief encounter.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

Nitropropane can be mixed into the methanol/ water reservoir so no additional tank is needed. The peak rwhp of 714 was initially not called into question, although an NSX with more than a 300 rwhp advantage over you should be much more than 3-4 cars lengths ahead of you from 3rd to 4th gear; "like you were standing still" is how it should have been. Furthermore, according to Armando's plot, he is making more torque at 2800 rpm and OFF BOOST than your max torque at any rpm? This thread was initially laid to rest after Frank confirmed Armando's car did in fact use Nitropropane. It subsequently came back to life only after Armando reposted one of my posts and issued a $5000 bet. Nobody is attacking Armando, although most of the challenges have been issued by him ($5000 bet, "your dyno reading skills suck", "Ill show you what the rear end of a methanol injected turbo charged white NSX looks like")

Pure methanol (ie, no gas or any other additive) running engines make about 25% more overall power than a comparable gas engine. This alone does not explain the 2-3 times torque numbers on Armando's plot and from what has been told, this is still primarily a gas engine with methanol/water injection. I guess the easiest way of explaining what is happening at 2800 rpm is as follows:

1+1=2 (I think we can all agree here)

1+1+X= 4 (Armando's claim)

Therefore X equals 2. Since X (methanol) is not well known here, everyone willingly accepts X=2

However X (methanol) equals 0.2 (arbitrarily picked for argument sake, but definitely less than 0.5). Therefore to get 4, you will need:

1+1+X+Y=4 where Y = 1.8

It is this "Y" that is so painfully obvious, that whenever someone says X=2, it's just plain wrong. Critical thinking, that's all.


Regards,

Danny
 
Wow you sure to write pretty, and it is obvious you know your tech stuff. If nitropropane was used on my car it was done without my knowledge. And if in fact it was used I think I should have seen a major difference in performance once the reservoir was empty and was refilled with methanol by me. It would also seem that I would need to also tune the car for nitropropoane and a seperate map for running methanol. I did not change the maps once the reservoir needed filling after the dyno session. I also did not notice any performace diffrence when filling the reservoir with the methanol mix.

But if saying I am using nitropropane will finally shut you up then so be it, you continuing to call me a liar is boring to me, but its always so much easier when sitting in your living room.


Armando
 
MiamieNeSeX said:
Wow you sure to write pretty, and it is obvious you know your tech stuff. If nitropropane was used on my car it was done without my knowledge. And if in fact it was used I think I should have seen a major difference in performance once the reservoir was empty and was refilled with methanol by me. It would also seem that I would need to also tune the car for nitropropoane and a seperate map for running methanol. I did not change the maps once the reservoir needed filling after the dyno session. I also did not notice any performace diffrence when filling the reservoir with the methanol mix.

But if saying I am using nitropropane will finally shut you up then so be it, you continuing to call me a liar is boring to me, but its always so much easier when sitting in your living room.


Armando
Click to expand...

Armando,

Actually, methanol, nitromethane and 2-nitropropane all require advanced timing, but how that timing changes with varying concentrations of methanol +/- nitropropane is for you and Frank to discuss.

Your ego has gotten the better of you. This was never about you, in fact, anyone else with that dyno and claim would have been called into question too. I take no pleasure in any of this, in my living room, study or anywhere else. FYI, your tendency to always leave with a parting shot keeps this thread alive.

Regards,

Danny
 
why cant we just all play nice?
 
NA1MT said:
why cant we just all play nice?
Click to expand...

NS1MT,

We did play nice (look back to page 3 of the thread, around 10/12, all was cool and we welcomed Frank to this community). This thread was laid to rest until the $5000 bet by Armando on Thanksgiving day.

Regards,

Danny
 
I saw these numbers last week think it was....and i was currently thinkin about wtf kinda car i wanted to get. It would have been either a Rx7, a G35, or a BMW 3 series...but i really wanted something diffrent and fast....and with those numbers and the Nsx's general str8 sickness i am convinced im goin for the NSeXy. But never the less, great job Sh1t1n on everyone with those numbers, no disrespect to anyone....but honestly....tell me he isn't...haha j/k
 
Some good reading this has been. Applause to both Danny and Armondo. People keep typing in "take the gloves off" and S#$T like that but really all this is, is a discussion.

Did Armonda use propane or not. When it comes down to it, who cares, so why not talk about it. As you all talk about it others learn.

This is the beauty of the forums, people can discuss things and others can learn. Example is my other post about turbo's for the car, and all I got was a smart ass comment by Armondo about how its just a "Wet Dream" of mine. But that was ok, it generated discussion, and hopefully some people learned from it. The fact that I have done more turbo cars, and have made more HP cars then Armondo doesn't matter and is of no consequence because it got people excited about the thread and got people posting. He has no idea about my extensive background and so little comments like that are kinda fun I guess.

So basically Danny and Armondo all I am saying is, I'm glad you all could have this discussion because while some may say you all are "dropping the gloves" and fighting all you are really doing is discussing a topic and bringing some good reading and knowledge to the community. I HOPE TO SEE MORE GOOD TECHNICAL reading like this as I post more in the NSX prime forum.

J. R.
 
Just spoke with Frank and he confirmed that he did use nitropropane to tune the car. I did not know until this morning . If I hurt anyones feelings (Danny not included) then I extend my apologies, now that I know the final mix in the "reservoir" we can turn up the boost and retune.


Armando
 
MiamieNeSeX said:
Just spoke with Frank and he confirmed that he did use nitropropane to tune the car. I did not know until this morning . If I hurt anyones feelings (Danny not included) then I extend my apologies, now that I know the final mix in the "reservoir" we can turn up the boost and retune.


Armando
Click to expand...

Does this mean Frank gets the $5,000?:biggrin: Now turn that sucker up!
 
BioBanker said:
have you done any dynos since Armando?

does the car feel out of tune?
Click to expand...


After talking with Frank at length this morning, the car without the nitropropane in the mix should net about 15 to 20% less power as it will be running much richer with the existing tune. I have felt a bit of a difference since refilling the injection system with methanol, but I had attributted it with getting accustomed to the car. Although I did what I set out to do (big HP & TQ for NSXPO)I would have liked the whole story before hand rather than beating a dead horse on the internet. Most was due to my pushing Frank to the last minute before we left for Expo and much traveling afterwards on both our parts. After all is said and done I am happy with what Frank has done and we will keep the nitromethane in the mix, we wil just tune the HP down to about 625 to 650.
Anyone have access to the nitropropane? I would like to source it from more than one place.



Armando

I forget who asked me for a picture of the aftercooler setup so here it is.
Turbo006.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Last edited:
MiamieNeSeX said:
After talking with Frank at length this morning, the car without the nitropropane in the mix should net about 15 to 20% less power as it will be running much richer with the existing tune. I have felt a bit of a difference since refilling the injection system with methanol, but I had attributted it with getting accustomed to the car. Although I did what I set out to do (big HP & TQ for NSXPO)I would have liked the whole story before hand rather than beating a dead horse on the internet. Most was due to my pushing Frank to the last minute before we left for Expo and much traveling afterwards on both our parts. After all is said and done I am happy with what Frank has done and we will keep the nitromethane in the mix, we wil just tune the HP down to about 625 to 650.
Anyone have access to the nitropropane? I would like to source it from more than one place.



Armando

I forget who ask me for a picture of the aftercooler setup so here it is.
Turbo006.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...


 

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