...the Sonata topped the Accord, the entire brand, however, was slightly behind Honda. NSXprime is the only forum I've ever belonged to that people generally read posts prior to commenting about them.. let's keep it that way.
New 9th gen Accord - disappointing
- Thread starter PHOEN$X
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...the Sonata topped the Accord, the entire brand, however, was slightly behind Honda. NSXprime is the only forum I've ever belonged to that people generally read posts prior to commenting about them.. let's keep it that way.
Re: 2013 Accord Sedan and Coupe Revealed
Hmmm, looks bland and ugly. Thanks for the pix.
Hmmm, looks bland and ugly. Thanks for the pix.
No see, the Sonata, the car was ranked higher than the Accord. The brand Hyundai was behind Honda. Now to read the post I just quoted...... oh whoops. Do'h. :smile:
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Sahtt. I reread the post you and turbo are quoting and saying proves that the sonata beat the accord. But all I see is that it beat important competitors ( not listing Honda or the accord) and a brand ranking where Honda is above them. So why are you being such a dick saying to me that prime is a place that people read posts . Also while you are debating facts in another thread you said lance was married to Cheryl crow. That was never the case and I didn't feel the need until now to tell you to get your facts straight
Last year, the Sonata beat the Accord. I don't know how else to say it. This year the Elantra tops the list in its class. Hyundai is beginning to be very competitive at resale value. Whether someone says it was first or second or third doesn't matter much, they are in the mix.
IMHO, I just don't see the Sonata as being a better looking car (either exterior or interior) than the newest or previous gen Accord.
C'mon, this:
vs this:
Doesn't it make sense that a lower priced car in the same class would outsell a higher priced competitor in a relentlessly down economy? If so, what took so long?
C'mon, this:
vs this:
Doesn't it make sense that a lower priced car in the same class would outsell a higher priced competitor in a relentlessly down economy? If so, what took so long?
No need to lose your temper. You are right - Cheryl and Lance were engaged at the time, not married. I'm far from a celebrity gossip expert. Not sure how much of a difference that makes but I stand corrected.
Turbo's posts were clear to me but apparently that is not the case for everyone. I'll leave it at that and won't risk a honda-tech situation where it does not belong.
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Just look at 2011 numbers..
Hyundai Motor Company
Revenue US$ 97.408 billion
Net income US$ 4.707 billion
Total assets US$ 104.06 billion
Total equity US$ 24.028 billion
Honda Motor Company
Revenue ¥7.948 trillion (US $10.092 billion)
Net income ¥211.48 billion (US $2.685 billion)
Total assets ¥11.780 trillion (US $149.575 billion)
Total equity ¥4.402 trillion (US $55.891 billion)
Looks like Hyundai has made much better sales...but Honda still has better assets and equity than Hyundai.
If you look at equity...Honda is still more than x2 bigger than Hyundai. However I do think that Hyundai is a big threat.
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Wow, forget assets and equity, if those numbers are correct, Honda is exponentially more profitable than Hyundai.
Profit Margin on Sales:
Honda - 26.5%
Hyundai - 4.8%
Not Porsche profitable but certainly respectable. I'll have to look to see what the benchmark is to determine what the industry avg. is but, wow, that's a nice %.
Profit Margin on Sales:
Honda - 26.5%
Hyundai - 4.8%
Not Porsche profitable but certainly respectable. I'll have to look to see what the benchmark is to determine what the industry avg. is but, wow, that's a nice %.
Most people discounted the fact that Japanese car companies were hurt by the tsunami. The last couple of months sales report (on vtec.net) shown that Honda rebounded huge, specially the Civic where most people on Prime hated.
I do know this, Hyundai is taking the same route Toyota did (as a foreign brand manufacture) by flooding the rental car agencies, something Honda refused to do. The reason is to protect the resale value for the consumer.
What is remarkable is the fact that Honda is still holding margin, something most of the Japanese electronic companies couldn't do. Margin is everything because that means when hard time comes, they have more wiggle room. Judging by the severity of this recession and they're still able to hold their margin, the company will shine brightly once they finish rebranding it self through the upcoming product line.
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Osiris_x11
Gold Member, Moderator: Marketplace
... amen!
This is my personal impression, but I think a lot of Hyundai designs are over-done.
Whereas Honda/Toyota look more clean and simple (this could be considered as boring), but I do sometimes think that Hyundai adds too many lines and curves.
Just like how Pontiac used to be back in 1990s.
Whereas Honda/Toyota look more clean and simple (this could be considered as boring), but I do sometimes think that Hyundai adds too many lines and curves.
Just like how Pontiac used to be back in 1990s.
Even Hyundai agrees with this. The next wave of Hyundai cars will be more restrained with a new design language called "Fluidic Precision".
-Jim
Osiris_x11
Gold Member, Moderator: Marketplace
ways-to-go...
Hyundai's philosophy on their models has always been design-by-committee, a mash'up emulation of sorts (to play catchup in a stop-gap meets piece-meal manner). With European (namely Audi) design exec's now onboard, things will likely gradually change.
Interestingly, Honda used their reputation for reliability/dependability - performance/handling - affordability/value - quality/refinement w/ their mainstream offerings to create Acura for their own customers when they realized that these individuals were going to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes Benz for luxury/comfort - technology/safety - innovation/features - design/styling. A bottom-to-up approach if you will. And it worked, at the time.
And as of late, Hyundai is using their Equus (by-far the strongest value in full-size import premium/luxury sedan segment), Genesis sedan (the best all-around offering in the mid-size import premium/sports sedan segment), Veracruz (at the time, the best mid-size import premium cross-over/utility offering) to showcase their prowess, getting these same satisfied customers to then stay in-house for their other down-market needs (Sonata, Elantra, Accent, Genesis coupe, etc). A top-to-down approach if you will. And it's working, at this time.
FWIW, I truly have no idea how Hyundai is (if-even) making any money from the Genesis sedan. If it was produced and offered by Acura or Lexus or Infiniti, it'd easily be ~$10k+ more in MSRP than it's offered at currently. It's fit, finish, and feel trumps anything under ~$75k MSRP. It's over-engineered & over-built, and the current iteration will likely have a long(er) life-cycle than it should due to the allocated design/engineering/production monies in that platform. And the successive generation will likely be cheaper (in quality), chintzier (in presence), and emblazoned w/ obvious cost-cutting... due to the bean-counters realizing they don't have to "over" do anything. Grrr!
As w/ the NSX upon release & the original LS400, the Genesis sedan is a game-changer. Hyundai did it right, for sure.
Hyundai's philosophy on their models has always been design-by-committee, a mash'up emulation of sorts (to play catchup in a stop-gap meets piece-meal manner). With European (namely Audi) design exec's now onboard, things will likely gradually change.
Interestingly, Honda used their reputation for reliability/dependability - performance/handling - affordability/value - quality/refinement w/ their mainstream offerings to create Acura for their own customers when they realized that these individuals were going to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes Benz for luxury/comfort - technology/safety - innovation/features - design/styling. A bottom-to-up approach if you will. And it worked, at the time.
And as of late, Hyundai is using their Equus (by-far the strongest value in full-size import premium/luxury sedan segment), Genesis sedan (the best all-around offering in the mid-size import premium/sports sedan segment), Veracruz (at the time, the best mid-size import premium cross-over/utility offering) to showcase their prowess, getting these same satisfied customers to then stay in-house for their other down-market needs (Sonata, Elantra, Accent, Genesis coupe, etc). A top-to-down approach if you will. And it's working, at this time.
FWIW, I truly have no idea how Hyundai is (if-even) making any money from the Genesis sedan. If it was produced and offered by Acura or Lexus or Infiniti, it'd easily be ~$10k+ more in MSRP than it's offered at currently. It's fit, finish, and feel trumps anything under ~$75k MSRP. It's over-engineered & over-built, and the current iteration will likely have a long(er) life-cycle than it should due to the allocated design/engineering/production monies in that platform. And the successive generation will likely be cheaper (in quality), chintzier (in presence), and emblazoned w/ obvious cost-cutting... due to the bean-counters realizing they don't have to "over" do anything. Grrr!
As w/ the NSX upon release & the original LS400, the Genesis sedan is a game-changer. Hyundai did it right, for sure.
Well, it's been said that the Accord's been growing larger every gen'...
For those that still think Hyundai is a "recession" brand. Elantra ranked first in its segment by Motor Trend:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...ll.html#ooid=pqcHZnMjpVdHW1PBeiX6c3PFJCBISfRH
This is not good news for Honda or Toyota. I still like Honda best in terms of driving dynamics (not looks or features), and that is the most important to me. But it isn't to everyone. And if Hyundai masters that, they will be very tough to compete with. Perhaps Hyundai will force Honda to get better. The one thing for sure is this impression that Hyundai is some junky, cheezy, sort of cheap brand for bad times is far from accurate.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...ll.html#ooid=pqcHZnMjpVdHW1PBeiX6c3PFJCBISfRH
This is not good news for Honda or Toyota. I still like Honda best in terms of driving dynamics (not looks or features), and that is the most important to me. But it isn't to everyone. And if Hyundai masters that, they will be very tough to compete with. Perhaps Hyundai will force Honda to get better. The one thing for sure is this impression that Hyundai is some junky, cheezy, sort of cheap brand for bad times is far from accurate.
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Just because one magazine said Elantra is superior to Civic, that doesn't mean it will sell better.
So many magazines said Solstice was better than Miata, yet people still picked Miata.
Sure, Elantra seems like a bang for buck and all that, but when it comes to purchasing, more people are buying Honda than Hyundai.
Just look at last 5 years of sales...
HONDA CIVIC
2008 - 339,289 72,463
2009 - 259,722 62,654
2010 - 260,218 57,501
2011 - 221,235 55,090
2012 - (as of July) 187,586 36,627
HYUNDAI ELANTRA
2008 - 94,720 11,814
2009 - 103,269 30,675
2010 - 132,246 34,556
2011 - 186,361 44,970
2012 - (as of July) 116,281 29,904
***The first number indicates US sales, the second number indicates Canadian sales***
I agree that Hyundai is doing well, but they haven't reached Honda yet.
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You're right, but look at the trend. One is trending down, the other trending up. That's the worrying thing not the numbers. Hopefully Honda can reverse that trend, but when the "cheap cheesy" brand starts winning comparison tests against your car, it makes it that much harder. Look despite what it may seem like on this thread because of a couple of guys taking personal offense to what I'm saying, I love honda and own two. That's why I'm harsh on them when they brilliantly engineer a car and then ruin their sales by making an ugly body for it. This accord is definitely a step in the right direction. I just personally think they could have gone a little bit further. It is definitely better looking than the last model. But Hyundai is a fierce competitor and a force to be reckoned with. Should not be taken lightly.
Again, it makes sense. Buyer's flock to the lower cost option during times of economic troubles or uncertainty. Add a aggressive and opportunistic competitor(s) to the mix and the established company experiences lower sales.
Given the sales numbers above, below is the forecasted sales numbers for each model, US and Canada:
Honda Civic
2012 - 382k
Hyundai Elantra
2012 - 248k
Coupled with a potential 27% and 5% profit margin for each respective company, Honda could actually sell substantially less than Hyundai and still be in better shape financially.
Given the sales numbers above, below is the forecasted sales numbers for each model, US and Canada:
Honda Civic
2012 - 382k
Hyundai Elantra
2012 - 248k
Coupled with a potential 27% and 5% profit margin for each respective company, Honda could actually sell substantially less than Hyundai and still be in better shape financially.
How do you figure? Net income 2011, if these numbers are right, are way higher for Hyundai. Despite the margin, their volume of sales is making up for it. I'm suspect of these figures but you can't just look at margin, or one model. Based on the figures Hyundai, despite the lower margin, is earning quite a bit more already. That's scary...
According to those figures, which I have yet to verify, Hyundai makes 2 billion more than Honda on 9x more gross revenue - 90 vs. 10 billion. The low profit margin necessitates that Hyundai, Walmart, or whomever, make up for the low margin by number of sales. Honda simply doesn't need to produce the amount of sales in order to produce the net income that Hyundai needs to - simply b/c the profit margin is so much higher.
Additionally, if A = L + OE, it also looks like Hyundai may be more heavily leveraged as well.
You may want to look at some of your posts w/i this thread and see if your advice is applicable for yourself as well.
I heard this morning that Hyundai is telling investors that they won't be meeting their August sales forecasts b/c of labor union issues. Run some decision models with Hyundai sales dropping 10, 20, or 30% and see how it affects net income...
Something to think about, supposedly GM was losing money on every car they sold, the only reason they were able to keep that going was due to increase in car sales, so through juggling money in a form of ponzi scheme, they were able to stay afloat until the recession hit.
Hyundai is selling with a very thin margin and they are cutting very close to GM's business model, while they are still making money, they are cutting it very close.
Also you can look at retail business, companies like Circuit City, they used to own all the tangible stuff within their operation, other than leasing the retail space, they even do their own in house financing and extended warrantee coverage, but they couldn't battle the low margin of electronic goods even with a annual sales of $7 billion.
There is a good reason why most of the fortune 500 companies of 1980's are no longer around.
By able to keep a healthy margin in such poor economy and a tough competitive environment, Honda is doing quite well.
Hyundai is selling with a very thin margin and they are cutting very close to GM's business model, while they are still making money, they are cutting it very close.
Also you can look at retail business, companies like Circuit City, they used to own all the tangible stuff within their operation, other than leasing the retail space, they even do their own in house financing and extended warrantee coverage, but they couldn't battle the low margin of electronic goods even with a annual sales of $7 billion.
There is a good reason why most of the fortune 500 companies of 1980's are no longer around.
By able to keep a healthy margin in such poor economy and a tough competitive environment, Honda is doing quite well.
Again, this wasn't intended to be a Honda vs Hyundai thread. I just happen to think that Honda can do a better job with its designs as no Acura/Honda product has lured me visually since the 90s.
However, since we're on the subject, I've been tooling around Kauai all week in a Hyundai Genesis rental. I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with its quality and ride, and I think it looks pretty sharp too. It feels comparable to the ES350 that I drove, and while the TL may have better steering feel, I'm not too fond of its busy interior or the beak design. Even without taking value into consideration, I think Toyota and Honda have plenty to worry about from Hyundai.
However, since we're on the subject, I've been tooling around Kauai all week in a Hyundai Genesis rental. I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with its quality and ride, and I think it looks pretty sharp too. It feels comparable to the ES350 that I drove, and while the TL may have better steering feel, I'm not too fond of its busy interior or the beak design. Even without taking value into consideration, I think Toyota and Honda have plenty to worry about from Hyundai.
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