NBA Playoff thread

You are right TURBO2GO but in all of human history ...... they are what humans put on a pedestal. The gladiators of Rome, the Greek olympic athletes, the Saxxon/Spartan warriors ...... all fit that model of human exceptionalism which invokes emotions that endears them in a good or negative way.

The guy or gal down the street is normal, average and neither excites or titillates.

Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. They have the human exceptionalism of convention in the face of overwhelming odds.

We admire those we deem greater than ourselves (even if it is just one aspect) ..... because they can do something we (and for the most part our peers) can't or will not do.

Most people keep their heads down and follow the herd ...... these "superstars" if you will don't.
 
Kobe a better shooter ....... hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Kobe has never shot over 50% ever in a season. Jordan has done this many times in fact for Jordan's career he is a .495 percent shooter, Kobe is not even close. Don't let Sportcenter highlights fool you.

Better shooter doesn't mean you shoot a higher percentage. MJ improved his shooting toward the later stages of his career. By your argument Shaq would be a better shooter than MJ! I've seen Kobe make fade away 3 pointers with his left hand. Michael drives to the basket better and gets easier baskets. Kobe can drive, though not as well, but he chooses to get his baskets outside and the degree of difficulty in his shots is higher. His ability to make difficult shots is also better than MJ.

A superstar only scoring 25.7 or 22.4 is being shut down when they lose because it's obvious his team needed more points. I'll have to check but I'm sure Kobe's FG% was in the 30-40% for those series ...... terrible.

Kobe shot 41% in the Boston series. By comparison KG shot 43%, Pierce shot 43%. Kobe lead both teams in steals and lead the Lakers in assists. Anyone with the defensive scheme that Boston dished out on him would have been shooting poorly and that's where the rest of the team needs to step up.

Jordan played in a era that didn't have defense. What are you smoking. The 80s may have been more show and go but the late 80s to the mid 90s was all about defense.

If what you say is true, how do you explain the scoring decline over the last 20 years? It has been because of the rules favoring defense, not because the players can't score. Average PPG in 1984 was 110.8. In 1994 it declined to 93.4!

My post about Jordan at 40 is to show that all these new great athletic players (that were not around when Jordan was in his prime) were playing then and Jordan still scored on them ---- and was still an all-star.

Kobe plays like Jordan after his first retirement (and past his prime).

Your point about him being an all-star shows how little you know about bball. All-stars and MVPs are equally popularity contests as they are real awards.
 
Lets not forget Kobe's and MJ's contribution to our world has been to play basketball well. A sport meant to entertain. They didn't do it for a noble cause, they did it while they were paid extremely well and treated like royalty. I think MJ was possibly the best ever, but I think he is kind of an ass. I think the same of Kobe. At the very least, he cheated on his wife and then made up for it by buying her a $16,000 ring.

I like watching basketball and arguing with you guys, because it is fun, but not for one second do I ever think that either of these guys is in any way better than the poor guy who busts his balls working at a local soup kitchen to help others. No one knows that guy, he has no money, no one asks for his signature, but he gives more to the world that he lives in than a basketball star does.

"Star"... "superstar"...."all star".... I find it comical sometimes that we reserve these words for people who do nothing but play a sport well. It's not like they are a Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King. They just dribble a ball well.

^ :cool:
x2


and if i was kobe's wife, i would have dumped him once for cheating, and twice for spending a measly 16k on a ring:tongue:


mj and kobe are both great players, everyone knows mj was great.. period! kobe has alot of finesse on the court, nobody can deny that
 
I think it was a lot more than 16k, it was an 8 carat purple ring worth about 4 million.

You guys that complain about cheating just haven't been in the right situation.

LOL.... Malibu, are you defending cheating on your wife? It's not the coolest thing to do in the world. Nor is buying her a 4 million dollar ring to say "I'm sorry". I think she is a selfish girl without values if she takes a ring as an apology. It's such a shallow move.... "Oh I'm sorry I lied to you and was acused of rape of this hotel girl worker, here is some money to make up for it". Then she says "OK"... LOL.... and the whole world is fixated on the cost of the ring. Who cares!!! Look at how we are as a general public... the kinds of things we are concerned about.

I'm just saying even if you are the best basketball player in the world, it doesn't make you better than a regular guy that lives his life in a more giving, more honest, less egotistical way. That's why I don't think its worth a lot of energy trying to figure out who was the better player. We can talk about it if it is fun, but let's keep things in perspective. Most of the reason I write here and make bets is just to have fun with my prime friends. I'm not here to prove anything, and if the Celtics lose, so long as we all had a good laugh and made fun of each other, it is fine by me. Losing $100 to Jeff if LA wins is OK with me.

You know the thought that went through my head honestly.... what I wanted to REALLY say is... the winner gives that $100 to the other person's favorite charity. Lets help someone else out. I mean there is a kid some place tonight who is hungry and in pain because he has no food. Right? The reason I did not say it, was I thought it to be unfair to put my own standard on Jeff. I shouldn't be telling him what to do with his $100. But it is what I wanted to do. I figured if I win, I send him a PM and just say "hey man, send that money to X charity for me instead please ".
 
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You know the thought that went through my head honestly.... what I wanted to REALLY say is... the winner gives that $100 to the other person's favorite charity. Lets help someone else out. I mean there is a kid some place tonight who is hungry and in pain because he has no food. Right? The reason I did not say it, was I thought it to be unfair to put my own standard on Jeff. I shouldn't be telling him what to do with his $100. But it is what I wanted to do. I figured if I win, I send him a PM and just say "hey man, send that money to X charity for me instead please ".

then why bet in first place? why don't you each just donate to your favorite charity, and not have to wait to see who wins.
 
then why bet in first place? why don't you each just donate to your favorite charity, and not have to wait to see who wins.

It's a friendly little bet between veteran Prime guys. I don't want to make it anything more than that...very similar to the mayors of the 2 cities betting beers/pizzas etc.

Jeff
 
Here we go again...

They are 2 different players with different playing styles. MJ played in an era where defense wasn't as important and there are nowhere near the amount of highly skilled players as there are now. As for getting shutdown, Kobe averaged 25.7 points in the Boston series that they lost, that is not being shutdown IMO. Give credit to Boston's defense, they threw the kitchen sink at him and made him less productive than usual and the reason they lost is the fact that the rest of the team was not stepping up and were outplayed physically. Boston beat LA up. In 2004, he averaged 22.4 in the Detroit series against one of the best defensive teams in history. That's not shutdown either. If you want to discredit him for his team's effort, let's be fair and bring up Jordan and his stint with the Washington Wizards. :rolleyes:
Played in an era where defense wasn't important? Defense during the late 80's to mid 90's was basically jungle ball and you could get away with murder. You didn't need to focus on it because it was already very physical.

Jordan scored 63 points against Boston in the 86 playoffs, and averaged 43.7 ppg, 5.7 apg, and 6.3 rpg for the three games series. That is unreal, especially since Boston at the time was a power house.

Jordan averaged higher points at a time when the league averaged higher points. Defense has been getting so tough that David Stern had to change the rules so that you could score more. MJ never scored 81, not even close IMO at 69 and it took him 50 minutes to do that and it took Kobe under 42 minutes to get his 81. And Kobe could have outdone the 81 on that night and other nights. Does anyone remember when he single-handedly outscored the Mavericks after only 3 quarters by HIMSELF 62-61? Coach Alvin Gentry after the Phoenix series called him the greatest finisher in the NBA ever, ahead of MJ.
He changed the rules to score more? Dude you don't make sense, Jordan was scoring absurd amounts during the regular season and playoffs prior to the rule changes.
Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

Kobe's 81 was against a sorry Raptors teams. Jordan put down 69 against Cleveland and 63 against Boston in the playoffs. Kobe doesn't compare during the playoffs. If you were to put Jordan at his prime in the NBA now, he would destroy the 81 mark easily. Kobe would not have scored 63 against Boston, the physical play would have shaken him.
So it's not absurd to put him up there with or past MJ but there will never be another MJ either. He was a special player at just the right time and the first true hero and almost universally loved player that also commands an enterprise for himself. I grew up idolizing MJ. Nowadays, any good player has legions of haters, I don't remember that situation with MJ so much but it was a different era. Kinda like Arnold Palmer whom everyone loved and now we have Tiger Woods who is a better player and even before his scandal wasn't completely loved in the same way. MJ was more gifted physically, better & bigger hands, higher vertical, better build. Kobe on the other hand shoots better (with both hands) and has better agility and a wider array of shots.

This is one of the biggest debates in basketball right now and there's a reason for that...
It is absurd to put Kobe up there with Jordan. People forget how much Jordan accomplished during his career. The only thing one could argue possiby is Kobe may have a better 3-pt shot but even than, we will have to wait til the end of his career to determine that.
The legacy of Kobe will be cemented in the next 2-3 years.

If he wins no more rings he will be remembered as a great superstar and the best non-big man of his generation.
Most likely scenario.
Lets not forget Kobe's and MJ's contribution to our world has been to play basketball well. A sport meant to entertain. They didn't do it for a noble cause, they did it while they were paid extremely well and treated like royalty. I think MJ was possibly the best ever, but I think he is kind of an ass. I think the same of Kobe. At the very least, he cheated on his wife and then made up for it by buying her a $16,000 ring.

I like watching basketball and arguing with you guys, because it is fun, but not for one second do I ever think that either of these guys is in any way better than the poor guy who busts his balls working at a local soup kitchen to help others. No one knows that guy, he has no money, no one asks for his signature, but he gives more to the world that he lives in than a basketball star does.

"Star"... "superstar"...."all star".... I find it comical sometimes that we reserve these words for people who do nothing but play a sport well. It's not like they are a Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King. They just dribble a ball well.
What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?
You are right TURBO2GO but in all of human history ...... they are what humans put on a pedestal. The gladiators of Rome, the Greek olympic athletes, the Saxxon/Spartan warriors ...... all fit that model of human exceptionalism which invokes emotions that endears them in a good or negative way.

The guy or gal down the street is normal, average and neither excites or titillates.

Ghandi, a Mother Teresa, or a Martin Luther King are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. They have the human exceptionalism of convention in the face of overwhelming odds.

We admire those we deem greater than ourselves (even if it is just one aspect) ..... because they can do something we (and for the most part our peers) can't or will not do.

Most people keep their heads down and follow the herd ...... these "superstars" if you will don't.
Again, no one within this debate was praising either of the two for their off-court humanitarian contributions. How does this factor within a basketball debate?
Better shooter doesn't mean you shoot a higher percentage. MJ improved his shooting toward the later stages of his career. By your argument Shaq would be a better shooter than MJ! I've seen Kobe make fade away 3 pointers with his left hand. Michael drives to the basket better and gets easier baskets. Kobe can drive, though not as well, but he chooses to get his baskets outside and the degree of difficulty in his shots is higher. His ability to make difficult shots is also better than MJ.
Congrats, you win for the most point-less arguments within this thread. What does degree of difficulty within shot selection have to do with winning games? NOTHING. If you think Jordan didn't take difficult shots, please go to youtube and watch some of his highlights.


If what you say is true, how do you explain the scoring decline over the last 20 years? It has been because of the rules favoring defense, not because the players can't score. Average PPG in 1984 was 110.8. In 1994 it declined to 93.4!

Your point about him being an all-star shows how little you know about bball. All-stars and MVPs are equally popularity contests as they are real awards.
Please, educate yourself on basketball before you act like a pompous ass to others.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

Since 1990, the NBA has instituted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

The MVP selection is not by any means a popularity vote, shows how much you REALLY know about basketball.
 
Can we stop with the Jordan comparisons? Why don't we let Kobe finish his career before we compare their individual accomplishments. :rolleyes:


OUch ^ the truth hurts.. And the "Truth" is gonna hurt the Lakers again in the finals!! ahha.

Kobe has played great in the playoffs, but lets be real without Gasol the Lakers probably finish as a 7th or 8th seed at best and would have been one and done.
Gasol is the real reason this team wins. I have respect for him as he quietly sits and lets Kobe take all the praise.
Bynum is weak and Ariza.. I think you guys would be better with him than Artest..
Ray Ray is gonna make it rain!

NICE! The "Cooler" has spoken. Time to bet on the Lakers! :biggrin:
 
then why bet in first place? why don't you each just donate to your favorite charity, and not have to wait to see who wins.

what would that have to do with our bet then??? I'm saying if I get lucky and free money comes my way, then let someone else benefit. $100 won't make or break me. But it will mean a lot to someone else. Even if I win, still it will be coming from Jeff to someone that can use it.
 
Can we stop with the Jordan comparisons? Why don't we let Kobe finish his career before we compare their individual accomplishments. :rolleyes:
Sucks that all of the people who argued for Kobe couldn't make a single point stick.
Yep, will do. Better to debate with more knowledgeable fans.
How delusional are you? All of your points were dismissed and proven incorrect. You know nothing about basketball, the only person you could beat in a basketball debate would be this guy:
dumbass.jpg
 
i think the fact that gasol and KG used to play on the same team together played a huge role in the way he shut garnett out. although, when they put wallace on gasol, it disrupted his game and they almost came back for a second. also, artest did a great job of keeping pierce out of the game by not letting him get the ball.
 
Great game by the lakes last night and they got some pretty solid play from the bench offensively and defensively. Lakes looked aggressive! Hope they continue to play that way.

I thought three plays summarized the game well:

1. Farmar stealing the ball from Rondo from an inbound pass.
2. Artest stealing the ball from Davis underneath the basket.
3. Kobe blocking Allen's dunk.

Note, they were all defensive plays. And sheesh, were the refs calling a tight game or what?
 
One of the guys betting with the beantown fan should buy him this shirt:

BostonMassacre_online.jpg
 
This still cracks me up: :biggrin:

2j5dmbs.gif


Hey, Chris Rock, shut up. Kobe's in the zone.
 
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