My Low Boost CTSC 2004 NSX dyno'd at 297HP -- is that low??

[charleysung]

I have a 2004 NSX with about 20K miles on it.

It has aftermarket air intake and exhaust, stock headers, stock ECU. No other engine mods.

It has a whipple Comptech low boost supercharger.

Is 297 HP at the wheels kinda low?

I know it depends on what kind of dyno was used.


I did the math like this -- stock is 290 HP at the crank. With approximately 15% loss of power, it means I was probably getting about 245 HP at the wheels in stock form. The CTSC is supposed to add about 70 HP at the wheels. So I should be getting about 315 HP at the wheels with the CTSC, right??

Thanks for your input.

 

[nsx1]

All the 2002+ NSX's that I know have dyno'd around 290HP at the wheels. Mine was 295HP before the CTSC install... 369HP after. (Dyno'd at Autowave in Huntington Beach, CA)

A few months later, on another dyno (in the Santa Clarita, CA area), my first run measured 267HP, second run was 297HP, third=300+, fourth=even more...

On your 2004, with the CTSC, I would guess you should get a lot more than 297HP on a reliable dyno machine.


.

 

[charleysung]

All the 2002+ NSX's that I know have dyno'd around 290HP at the wheels. Mine was 295HP before the CTSC install... 369HP after. (Dyno'd at Autowave in Huntington Beach, CA)

A few months later, on another dyno (in the Santa Clarita, CA area), my first run measured 267HP, second run was 297HP, third=300+, fourth=even more...

On your 2004, with the CTSC, I would guess you should get a lot more than 297HP on a reliable dyno machine.


.

It sounds like the results really depend on how reliable the dyno is. I can't believe one dyno had you at 369 HP, and another had you at 267 HP. Maybe I should try dyno'ing my car at another tuner to see if it comes out any higher.

 

[docjohn]

Do a search about dynos.There are different types which give very different numbers.Most common: mustang vs dynojet.Also there is another thread here somewhere asking just the same ? and a nice discussion ensued about lower numbers with a standard comptech blower.

 

[ffffanman]

how does the car feel now that you installed the whipple on it?
Did you get the right pulley with the kit for your newer engine, for I have read
something on this, that new engines get a different pulley than the old 3.0.
So I'm thinking if your kit came off of a 3.0 engine and you have a 3.2, then you need a different pulley.
I could be wrong.
Trev

 

[charleysung]

how does the car feel now that you installed the whipple on it?
Did you get the right pulley with the kit for your newer engine, for I have read
something on this, that new engines get a different pulley than the old 3.0.
So I'm thinking if your kit came off of a 3.0 engine and you have a 3.2, then you need a different pulley.
I could be wrong.
Trev

The SC came off of my old 1999 NSX, so it has the right pulleys. It feels pretty fast, certainly faster than stock, but I just don't know if it is performing at its full potential.

 

[ffffanman]

Let me take your SC for a year and so and I'll do all the testing for ya!
On the serious side, is it worth 6500.00 in your opinion to put a used whipple ctsc on a nsx? Performance wise.
Trev

 

[The Kid]

297 is way to low! My 3.0 spun 299 hp with the stock header, intake and exhaust:biggrin:

 

[Lonestranger]

I think a lot depends on HOW used it is - was it maintained properly, if so, how many miles etc. We have 30k miles on our package with no hiccups! Don't ya know?:wink: However, if it was to do again, for the price of new CTSC package ( when/if available), I would probably look at Turbo package (depending on your ultimate performance goal. = more ultimate HP potential etc.) That being said, for very satisfying increase of "fun" with virtually no additional maintenance, it is hard to beat the a CTSC package. (But $5k -5.5k sounds more in the ballpark for a used package. IMO :wink: )

Let me take your SC for a year and so and I'll do all the testing for ya!
On the serious side, is it worth 6500.00 in your opinion to put a used whipple ctsc on a nsx? Performance wise.
Trev

 

[nathan]

People need to get off of the dyno numbers kick. Dynodynamics dynos read very, very low. Unless of course, they are altered or calibrated to read higher like the ones in cali

You really should have done a baseline on the dyno before the CTSC install and see what the overall gains are on the same dyno after the install. If possible, do you have a friend nearby with a stock NSX that can run the dyno you did? That may help settle things. Or just run him, and you will see were you stand.

Dyno numbers are just that, numbers. Technically speaking my Autorotor CTSC put down a "low" number. But, considering that I can beat low 12 sec Evos and vettes, and Porsche 911s, I could care less about the peak number.

Point is, dont believe all of the hype from everybody on here about "low" or "high" numbers. Check to make sure that you boost graph and your A/F graph and make sure they are in proper spec. Then lets go from there.

Nathan

 

[NSXGMS]

People need to get off of the dyno numbers kick. Dynodynamics dynos read very, very low. Unless of course, they are altered or calibrated to read higher like the ones in cali

You really should have done a baseline on the dyno before the CTSC install and see what the overall gains are on the same dyno after the install. If possible, do you have a friend nearby with a stock NSX that can run the dyno you did? That may help settle things. Or just run him, and you will see were you stand.

Dyno numbers are just that, numbers. Technically speaking my Autorotor CTSC put down a "low" number. But, considering that I can beat low 12 sec Evos and vettes, and Porsche 911s, I could care less about the peak number.

Point is, dont believe all of the hype from everybody on here about "low" or "high" numbers. Check to make sure that you boost graph and your A/F graph and make sure they are in proper spec. Then lets go from there.

Nathan

Where did the OP indicate he was using a Dynodynamics dyno?

It's understood that dynos can differ greatly but quite frankly 297 whp for a CTSC NA2 NSX is alarmingly low and way outside the margin of error for any brand dyno I've ever seen.

First, most NSXs have drivetrain losses of 12-13%. This means the whp of a NA2 should be no less than 250 whp. Second, he also has an AM exhaust which would presumably add no less than 5 whp. I'm not even going to bring up the fact that there's quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest that all 03+ NSXs have balanced and blueprinted motors. Let's just keep the number at a solid 255 whp baseline. :wink:

At 297 whp that is a gain of 42 whp over our "assumed baseline" or only 60% of the average gain reported by other low-boost CTSC users (~70 whp). Something is amiss. Vance Hu's stock 03 with I/H/E puts down 303 whp for goodness sake. And you just heard from Mike who puts down 299 whp with an NA1 NSX with stock I/H/E!

I agree with you that dyno numbers are numbers and that people often get caught up in them and read into them too much. There's certainly more to speed than hp--even straight-line speed. Obviously a Ariel Atom with 270 whp is going to be a lot faster than an NSX with 500 hp. But that doesn't mean hp and dynos aren't significant and accurate within a range.

Just curious--what "number" did your Autorotor CTSC put up that was "low"? I'd be willing to bet it's not close to 297 whp low. Even adjusting for the Whipple, I'm not sure how anyone can dismiss a 297 whp dyno run--on any dyno--as being in the allowable range for a low-boost CTSC NA2 NSX. It's not.

Bottom line: the OP needed to do a baseline run. The OP should also go to another dyno at another shop. And before anything else the OP should check his tuning as you suggest before possibly blowing up his motor on the next dyno. The problem could be with any of those three areas. But rest assured--there is a problem somewhere in the chain.

 

[brandonsan]

The SC came off of my old 1999 NSX, so it has the right pulleys. It feels pretty fast, certainly faster than stock, but I just don't know if it is performing at its full potential.

Charley,

Are you still running the high boost setup that was on Don's original car ? If so you may want to buy the NEW AEM FIC and have it tuned.

 

[charleysung]

Charley,

Are you still running the high boost setup that was on Don's original car ? If so you may want to buy the NEW AEM FIC and have it tuned.

No. I have the same supercharger, but I changed it to a low boost set up.

 

[ak]

hey charley, where did you dyno at? You might wanna make sure that it is making the full boost and the belt is not slipping. Unless you did a baseline dyno it's hard to say but 300hp seems somewhat low.

 

[charleysung]

hey charley, where did you dyno at? You might wanna make sure that it is making the full boost and the belt is not slipping. Unless you did a baseline dyno it's hard to say but 300hp seems somewhat low.

I did the dyno at P-Tuning in Manassas.

I called Comptech, and they said there are three possibilities:
(1) Belt slipping because not tension adjusted
(2) Not getting full boost
(3) Miscalibrated dyno.

So your instincts are right on.

 

[nathan]

Where did the OP indicate he was using a Dynodynamics dyno?

It's understood that dynos can differ greatly but quite frankly 297 whp for a CTSC NA2 NSX is alarmingly low and way outside the margin of error for any brand dyno I've ever seen.

First, most NSXs have drivetrain losses of 12-13%. This means the whp of a NA2 should be no less than 250 whp. Second, he also has an AM exhaust which would presumably add no less than 5 whp. I'm not even going to bring up the fact that there's quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest that all 03+ NSXs have balanced and blueprinted motors. Let's just keep the number at a solid 255 whp baseline. :wink:

At 297 whp that is a gain of 42 whp over our "assumed baseline" or only 60% of the average gain reported by other low-boost CTSC users (~70 whp). Something is amiss. Vance Hu's stock 03 with I/H/E puts down 303 whp for goodness sake. And you just heard from Mike who puts down 299 whp with an NA1 NSX with stock I/H/E!

I agree with you that dyno numbers are numbers and that people often get caught up in them and read into them too much. There's certainly more to speed than hp--even straight-line speed. Obviously a Ariel Atom with 270 whp is going to be a lot faster than an NSX with 500 hp. But that doesn't mean hp and dynos aren't significant and accurate within a range.

Just curious--what "number" did your Autorotor CTSC put up that was "low"? I'd be willing to bet it's not close to 297 whp low. Even adjusting for the Whipple, I'm not sure how anyone can dismiss a 297 whp dyno run--on any dyno--as being in the allowable range for a low-boost CTSC NA2 NSX. It's not.

Bottom line: the OP needed to do a baseline run. The OP should also go to another dyno at another shop. And before anything else the OP should check his tuning as you suggest before possibly blowing up his motor on the next dyno. The problem could be with any of those three areas. But rest assured--there is a problem somewhere in the chain.

He didnt state that is was a DynoDynamics. I was just using that as an example thats all.

When I had my car dynoed at Dyno4mance it put down a "low number" of 305rwhp. But again, this is a heartbreak dyno that has no adjustment factor. It reads extremely low. However, it is calibrated perfectly. There is simply no adjustment factor on the dyno. My A/F is excellent, and my boost curve is perfect. Now, i dont want to turn this into a dyno thread. But, lets just say that anything over 300 on Andrew's dyno (Dyno4mance) is strong. If you want a comparsion go and check out his website www.dyno4mance.com. There you will see what certain cars make.

The number that I put down is prefectly allowable on that dyno. I dont care what VanceHu put down. If VanceHu was to dyno his car on Andrew's dyno I would guarantee you it would only pull about a 250rwhp MAX. That is just the way his dyno is. It is a heartbreaker as far as numbers are concerned. Peak numbers dont mean anything. Now, I ran my car on another dyno in the area that was a DynoJet. It put down just right around 370rwhp. But, the A/F and boost curve were identical to the dynodynamics dyno that I used first. That is all that matters.

Again, I ran against several 12.2, 12.3, and 12.4 second Evos, STis and Vettes, and I have beaten them all. Do you really think that would happen if my car was only 305rwhp? No. Point is peak dyno numbers dont mean jack without a proper baseline, or comparable run with an equivalent car.

Yes, he should have done a baseline run like we both said. However, he is unfortunately past that part. I would also recommend that he check his boost and A/F curve to see if his belt is slipping, and if the tune is correct (out of the box tune that is).

CHARLEYSUNG, check those two graphs (boost and A/F) then get back with and let us know what they show.

Nathan

 

[charleysung]

Nathan:
I did in fact use a Dynodynamics dyno when I got my low numbers.

 

[nathan]

Nathan:
I did in fact use a Dynodynamics dyno when I got my low numbers.

Hmmm, wow I was right after all
If that is the case, then you number of 297 is pretty much dead on. I have a 91 with full bolt ons a few more other small goodies, hence why I put down a bit higher.

Can you send me the graphs via email or post them here?
Also, if you want, call the shop back, and ask them this wierd question "ask the dyno operator to hit the X key on the dyno's keyboard. Then ask them what the two or three numbers are after the 1. Meaning, what is the number?" It will be in the format of 1.XXX

If it is what I think it is, then 297rwhp is just right.

Get us the graphs man.

Nathan

 

[nathan]

Well, since I was so curious I actually called P-Tuning myself. They all seem very nice by the way. It turns out that there Xtra correction factor is a big fat whopping 0. Meaning, there are no extra adjustments. And of course, because their peak numbers read low, they get several customers who are always scratching their heads when they see the graphs. But, that is a different conversation

Therefore, I would say that your Dyno run of 297 with just an aftermarket exhaust is pretty darn strong. Now, I am not quite sure what aftermarket headers on your car would do. As I cant remember if headers on a 2002+ show any gains. But, I know if you pop off those cats and put on some test pipes, you should gain about 12rwhp on that dyno.

However, I would still like to see the graphs you have.
Thanks again,
Nathan

 

[charleysung]

Well, since I was so curious I actually called P-Tuning myself. They all seem very nice by the way. It turns out that there Xtra correction factor is a big fat whopping 0. Meaning, there are no extra adjustments. And of course, because their peak numbers read low, they get several customers who are always scratching their heads when they see the graphs. But, that is a different conversation

Therefore, I would say that your Dyno run of 297 with just an aftermarket exhaust is pretty darn strong. Now, I am not quite sure what aftermarket headers on your car would do. As I cant remember if headers on a 2002+ show any gains. But, I know if you pop off those cats and put on some test pipes, you should gain about 12rwhp on that dyno.

However, I would still like to see the graphs you have.
Thanks again,
Nathan

Nathan:
Please explain what an Xtra correction factor is, and what it means to have an Xtra correction factor of 0.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I posted a thread on this before, you can search and find it. I had mine done on 5 dynos. They read anywhere from 313 to 398. Same car, same altitude, same temps, different dynos. I don't put a lot of faith in dynos. All I know is I did dyno on the same dyno pre-CTSC/Exhaust at 250. After was 368. I took that car out a week later some other place and got the 318. 2 weeks later I went out again and got 398. I think the Autowave dyno is an optimistic one. I have said this before. Every NA NSX with an exhaust there reads 280-290. Do you really think your CTSC NSX has 7 more horsepower than an NA NSX?!! Check the boost level and AF ratios and if they are correct, you are fine.

 

[Chris NSX]

Charley,

I had my NSX Dyno at Ultimate when I had my Autorotor CTSC installed, 343 to the wheels. But I did not do a baseline on my NSX before the supercharger, I thought is was a low reading because it seems everyone else had higher numbers. Charlie from the Car Doctor told me that the car runs strong and the Dyno is mostly for tunning. I have out run other NSX with hi boost supercharger that had higher numbers on the same dyno.

Your NSX drives and pulls great when Bryan and I took it to DC, I would not put too much stock in the Dyno reading. You just need to bring it out to the track.

 

[Chris NSX]

I have out run other NSX with hi boost supercharger that had higher numbers on the same dyno.

I hope you are not talking about me, I was not all out on that run back from skyline.:biggrin: We do need to get them lined up and go for it on a straight line.:smile:

To be fair we do need to lined them up and set the record straight. But you are not the one I am talking about.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

That sounds low to me, but could be expected due to equipment varience. The same car on our dyno typically produces 320-330 wheel hp. If you are concerned, you can confirm the low numbers by looking at 3 pieces of information:

1. manifold pressure - should have been recorded on the dyno
2. AFR - this will determine if the car is running optimally
3. If both items above point to a good operating car, the last thing would be to do is check compression. If all 3 pieces of information point to a correctly functioning car & supercharger - then you know the dyno reads low either due to the equipment or the dyno's correction factors not set right. You can then run at another facility to get numbers that you're more happy with.

As mentioned, dynos are only good for comparison testing at the same facility under the same condition. They are not good to compare numbers between other facilities / other conditions.

Cheers,
-- Chris

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Sorry to bring up this old post but Andrew owns Dyno4mance and that dyno read like it should. If a car has 290 stock and puts down 290 that dyno sucks. My 06 evo stock put down 225, then with a flask and boost controller put down 280 so that dyno reads right. A evo with a turbo upgrade, exhaust and such will make about 360 on that dyno. Yes it reads CORRECT not low, also do a baseline before and after mods at the same place. Dynodynamics are the best dyno made.