My first fishtail!

[Jimbo]

Stock NSX. Stock Z06.

I think the better handling car is the Z06.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. After all the NSX is much older design.

New Type R and stock Z06, well that's probably another story.

BTW: A word of caution to those drivers pushing the limits in their NSXes espescially on the street.

Traction control (TCS) is not to be confused with an Active Handling System like on the Corvette and other cars.
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/index_active.htm

The NSX with its propensity for trailing throttle oversteer (TTO) like most other mid-engine cars, should be driven with some care, knowledge and training. Preferably this should be provided by a seasoned driver familiar with the NSX (or another mid-engine car) on a racetrack.

The instinct, which is VERY hard to break, is to let off the throttle abruptly upon sensing danger in the curve.

Simply put, you go into a curve too hot, panic, let up the gas, hit the brakes, the back end swings around, you overcorrect with the steering, come back onto the roadway and upon regaining traction....your NSX responds quite nicely to the steering input and darts across the roadway or track. All in the matter of a few seconds.

If you follow your natural instincts, you'll get into serious trouble.

Just go to that wrecked exotics web site or do a forum search on "accident" and see how many NSXes were trashed this way.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[JPS Europa]

Just my $.02. and a question.
I used to drive formula cars and have driven a Lotus Europa since the dawn of time. I have three mid-engine cars and totally understand the dynamics. Once you get used to driving the beast you will find that you make the steering corrections as you get out of the gas when things get too hot. The car takes a minor stutter step and the nose tucks in... very little drama. Just motor around the corner...more gas-more understeer, less gas-transition oversteer. In the wet, this is much harder as the steering correction needs to be MUCH smaller, but the same thing happens...just with more drama. The Lotus feels just like a soft formula ford. It does not have the grip of a car with wings, but it does have fantastic feel for what ALL the tires are doing. It also has many quirks which make it a marginal street car. The NSX corners just the same at the limit, the difference is that it can not be throttle-steered easily with the TCS on. So switch it off when pushing for the edge. The other thing that I notice about the NSX is that the rear suspension does not communicate much. The front is great; you can feel exactly what the tires are doing. But the rear...I find myself steering more by vision and wheel kickback alone, than by some combination of kickback, body language and visual communication. The NSX is by far the superior street car and I don't want to lose that, BUT I would like a bit more feedback from the rear tires. I miss the body language. I don't want to go on a development program on my own, so I ask the group...What changes have you made to your cars to improve steering (from the back) feel? I suspect that harder bushings might be the answer (one that I won't like...the better street car thing), maybe only required on the toe links?
Thanks, Paul
'94 Green

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Happy Motoring At all Costs!

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Stock NSX. Stock Z06.

I think the better handling car is the Z06.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. After all the NSX is much older design.

If that were a legitimate reason, then 99 percent of the cars sold today would handle better than the NSX. They don't.

People talk about "older design" for the NSX, for the OEM tires, for all sorts of things, as though anything newer automatically does everything better than anything older. It doesn't work that way. Few products do everything better than anything else, and there may not be a universal "better". Even when a very capable product is available - and the Z06 is very capable indeed - it is almost always the case that it is better at doing certain functions mostly because the designers gave top priority to maximizing those functions, much more so than because newer technology was available.

If it were strictly a technology game, every new product would be better than every old product. That may be the case for extremely long periods of time - a new Honda Accord being more capable than a race car from the 1920s, for example - but not for relatively short time periods.

 

[Jimbo]

"...If that were a legitimate reason, then 99 percent of the cars sold today would handle better than the NSX. They don't. People talk about "older design" for the NSX, for the OEM tires, for all sorts of things, as though anything newer automatically does everything better than anything older. It doesn't work that way..."

***********

It doesn't work that way? Really?

Gee, I'm a mechanical engineer and I thought for sure that there was a Anti-Entropy Law that was discovered by Feynman right after his death that described how newer things were automatically better.

Seriously, 99% of the cars sold today aren't Z06s. My only point was that Chevrolet has had ample time to catch up.

What IS true is that 12 years ago the NSX competed against a C4 Corvette, the Ferrari 328, the Porsche 911 and it trounced the competition. The fact that the current design competes as well as it does with the follow-on models of these cars is a testament to the soundness of the design of the NSX. But 12 years is a long time and there's a number of new technologies that could be incorporated into the NSX.

Consider that the 2003 Accord can be outfitted with a 240 HP V6. 12 years ago the percentage of cars than had more power than the NSX was pretty small. I don't think that's the case any more. And those performance cars that do have more power than the NSX - have a LOT more power.

I also think that with few rare exceptions that each sucessive generation of performance cars generally get better and better over time.

Now priorities change and some designers change the focus or mission of a vehicle, but I think it's rare indeed that the newer generation of a vehicle is not as good as the prior generation.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[BadCarma]

Originally posted by NetViper:
I went a around a corner a little aggressive today and applied throttle and BAM, I was sideways. It was really simple to correct and I was surprised how well the NSX recovered. What a great car!! I love my NSX

Maybe you have found a niche in the drifting community.a whole culture that lives to put their car into a slide and hold it as long as possible

they even pay money for this at major track events in japan,seems to be catching on in the states now
david

 

[docjohn]

To JPSEuropa,the rear beam and toe link mods are excellent for eliminating that sloppy feeling or twitchy feeling at the rear end near the limmit.Most folks with this mod echo those observations.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by docjohn:
To JPSEuropa,the rear beam and toe link mods are excellent for eliminating that sloppy feeling or twitchy feeling at the rear end near the limmit.

Doc

Question: Did Acura go to far when suggesting that the rear toe-in be changed to provide better tire wear @ the sacrifice of traction or the characteristics felt before a snap oversteer "tritchy feeling". If so can some of the concerns be taken care of by dialing more toe-in back into the rear or has this already been tried w/o better results.

 

[docjohn]

Good question.From my experience with my car,a 96,the twitchyness or slop as some call it is independant of the toe settings,imo.Before this mod I felt similar uneasyness at the track or in fast transistions on the street at 96 and 91 susp. specs.Certainly the increased rear toe increases the adhesion of the back-end but I could still feel what I interpret as the release of stored kinetic energy or play in the stock bushings which to my but were independant of settings.After the mod I don't feel a real difference(degredation in ride quality) in normal routine street driving.If folks think I'm loopy all I can say is I feel what I feel.Hopefully My backside has become more educated after numerous 3and 4 day track schools and many days practicing.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by docjohn:
Hopefully My backside has become more educated after numerous 3and 4 day track schools and many days practicing.

4 day track schools??? Where?!!! Sign me up!

 

[Number9]

The non-compliance beam/toe-links minimize DYNAMIC CHANGE in rear toe under load for more predictable handling. Doesn't change baseline alignment characteristics per se, just mitigates unwanted changes to it. Ken, 4-day Bondurant school is a hoot, per DH and me...

 

[Zanardi 50]

Originally posted by BadCarma:

Originally posted by NetViper:
I went a around a corner a little aggressive today and applied throttle and BAM, I was sideways. It was really simple to correct and I was surprised how well the NSX recovered. What a great car!! I love my NSX

Maybe you have found a niche in the drifting community.a whole culture that lives to put their car into a slide and hold it as long as possible

they even pay money for this at major track events in japan,seems to be catching on in the states now
david

Since we're on the subject of 'drifting', have anyone here know or even heard of the Anime/Comic series called INITIAL D ? I'd love to hear ya NSX'ers that are fans of this show chime in. I owe my fanaticism of cars, esp. Imports, to this show (silly as it may sound)!

 

[kenjiMR]

Regarding rear-end slop feel, aside from upgrading the bushings... how would linear rate springs such as HR and coil-over systems do to alleviate some of these issues? I have done several track events since the last time I spun the car and now feel a lot more comfortable driving the car close to its limits. I feel this, because I have been able to start inputting small adjustments and feathering the wheel a lot. Last time I begun to power-oversteer and slid sideways between a transition turn and caught it with minimal adjustments... I believe if I hadn't felt as confident, I probably would have over-corrected. In any case, I am really interested which order of mods I should do to get even more tighter feedback from teh car.

Currently, I am using Eibach+Koni spring/shock combo which I intend to replace with HR unless I decide to fork out the cash for TEIN Type-RAs. I am using max negative camber and 0 toe up front and +1/8" in the rear.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

John,

As I started reading this thread I said to myself: "I wonder when docjohn will mention the Toe Links and Rear Beam!!!!!!!!!!

As I thought only a few responses down and there you were!

Kenji,

I do not think that stiffening the spring rates as an alternative will cure this, in fact, I think it will make it worse, JMHO.

The reason for this is as you stiffen any part of the suspension, when load transfer occurs, the force will be taken up somewhere. In this case it is the bushing for the Toe Link and the Rear Beam bushing.

If you examine the suspension design, as you power on, the car will squat, this will INCREASE toe in, it does that through the goemoetry of the Toe Link, since it is moving through an arc. When you increase the toe in, you also increase the pressure on the toe link bushing, which will compress and alter the toe.

So the soft bushing will make the toe change sloppy, hence sloppy rear end behavior.

John, See you on the 10th! I leave for Japan on 8/3 and return 8/7. You guys may be keeping me awake on Saturday;-).

HTH
LarryB

 

[NA1/2-R GT]

180? how about 360 on a (normally busy) street...
i was coming out from a self carwash station... little did i know about the tires were all WET... and i decided to turn off my TCS for the hell of it... so here i was, signaled for the right-turn, let go the clutch floored the gas... at a blink second, i went 360 in a donut... it happened so quick that i banked out for a sec. and then asking myself what just happened...luckily, there were no cars either direction. phewww
well, that taught me not to turn off my TCS for fun...

 

[kenjiMR]

I never drive with the TCS on... I'm trying to figure out how to disable it completely, because I am annoyed of pushing the button everytime I drive. I think driving without TCS is good to teach you how to drive... just practice on the track.

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by kenjiMR:
I never drive with the TCS on... I'm trying to figure out how to disable it completely,

Unplug it. The box is towards the top of the rear firewall behind the drivers seat.

 

[docjohn]

Hi guys,Ken my 4-day was Bondurant. Larry,We are looking forward to the poker-run,as usual I'll be fumbling with street/track tire -wheel switches that wkend as I,ll be at Pocono on Sun.

 

[huckster]

hey jimbo, good point. i'm sure if i'd hit the gas once i'd lost it i would have made a bad situation worse. as it was, i let her spin on down the road really tight---kept it on the road---instead of recovering too late and running into a tree or ditch (or house).

i really do need some track time...