Meth Kit with CTSC

[dynomike]

The problem with the cool or cold temp or cooler IATs with the stock comptech supercharger is that the stock comptech supercharger uses the stock timing. Anyone who has a tuned AEM on the comptech or SOS supercharger (if they look) can see the timing has been adjusted (and its not higher). I have never gotten a right answer about just what the stock timing on a NSX is but I believe the speculation is WOT max is some where around 28-32 degrees. And like it was stated earlier does the stock ecu add timing if the IATs are really low?

DING DING DING DING YOU ARE CORRECT. The Nsx stock timing runs right at 28 degrees in the top end. When i tune CTSC with an AEM EMS my timing will be right around 19-20 under boost. that is 8 degrees of timing retard that the engine needs to function correctly. So by dropping those Iats low the car will essentially have to much timing advance and detonate.

Now lets make one thing clear methanol injection is Awesome and functions great but I think if someone were to put it on a stock CTSC running a Stock computer you could be asking for problems. Now if you have the ability to tune for methanol injection this is one of the best things you can do for:

1. dropping IATs
2. Increasing octane allowing to run more aggressive of a tune
3. Make the engine run cooler and safer
4. Your car is now a Alcohol injected fire breather:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Mac Attack]

Regan,

Couldn't you use the AEM piggyback F/IC then with methanol injection?

Dave

 

[GCNSX]

DING DING DING DING YOU ARE CORRECT. The Nsx stock timing runs right at 28 degrees in the top end. When i tune CTSC with an AEM EMS my timing will be right around 19-20 under boost. that is 8 degrees of timing retard that the engine needs to function correctly. So by dropping those Iats low the car will essentially have to much timing advance and detonate.

Now lets make one thing clear methanol injection is Awesome and functions great but I think if someone were to put it on a stock CTSC running a Stock computer you could be asking for problems. Now if you have the ability to tune for methanol injection this is one of the best things you can do for:

1. dropping IATs
2. Increasing octane allowing to run more aggressive of a tune
3. Make the engine run cooler and safer
4. Your car is now a Alcohol injected fire breather:biggrin::biggrin:

So I guess I should just install the meth kit on my CTSC and run 100 octane all the time to avoid knock..........:biggrin::biggrin: I have it at the pump around here.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Mike would you mind answering some of my questions in post #33 please?

What kinds of numbers are you seeing with Meth?

 

[RYU]

Deleted my previous questions after concluding, for track conditions, all the effort is best spent on an AEM EMS or just deal with the heat soak.

 

[Mac Attack]

Dude, you should have done a search :biggrin::

http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83624

Dave

 

[RYU]

Dude, you should have done a search :biggrin::

http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83624

Dave

Evidently yes :redface: (how did i miss that!) That's the same conversation done in a parallel universe.

I'm leaning towards trying a 100% water injection system but monitoring AITs before doing so. I'm happy reducing intake temps from 250-200 but it gets a bit sketchy (based on testimony) to go any lower. More to come on this later once I figure out an approach and a parts list.

 

[stuntman]

Just get a FCon or AEM *whatever a good local tuner works on -for support, so theirs no issues with low IATs, monitor youur IATs, then start playing with dropping thrm as much as you can.


0.02

 

[dynomike]

Mike are you retaining CEL functionality with the EMS keeping the OBDII factory ECU?

Can you elaborate as to why you think Meth is giving you better results than an intercooler and what about all the concerns. What systems are you using and where are you injecting it.

And I am wondering... how would a car using this fail in CA?

yes I am retaining cel functions on some of the sensors. Because the AEM is directly driving the the Injectors and coils you will have Cels for these but all other sensors are still monitored by the stock computer. Because there are cels stored in the stock computer emissions testing will have an immediate fail.

The meth is better than inter cooling because the inter cooler will always end up heat soaking because it is sitting right on top of a 220 degree engine. Think of meth acting like a swamp cooler, the water meth atomizes with the air instantly cooling it. As long as there is meth spraying you will always have cool intlet temps enriched with a higher octane fuel.

I have had great success with using the AEM water meth system. their 5 gallon tank mounts nicely in the trunk. You can inject it anywhere pre supercharger.

How would this fail CA emissions. If the tech wanted to be stickler and saw the meth nozzle this would be a fail

sorry for the late reply

 

[stuntman]

the inter cooler will always end up heat soaking because it is sitting right on top of a 220 degree engine.

While not disagreeing with your statements on meth-injection, I would have to disagree with this statement because with a proper inter/after cooling system, the water going through the intercooler should be sized to transfer the intake charge into heat into the water, then with a large and efficient enough of a front mounted heat exchanger, should cool down and thus cooling the intake charge and surrounding heat sources.

While most intercooled supercharged systems do get hot and 'heat soak' -if you will, its due to an inadequate sizing and design, not because the cooler is sitting on top of a 220* engine.


0.02

 

[dynomike]

While not disagreeing with your statements on meth-injection, I would have to disagree with this statement because with a proper inter/after cooling system, the water going through the intercooler should be sized to transfer the intake charge into heat into the water, then with a large and efficient enough of a front mounted heat exchanger, should cool down and thus cooling the intake charge and surrounding heat sources.

While most intercooled supercharged systems do get hot and 'heat soak' -if you will, its due to an inadequate sizing and design, not because the cooler is sitting on top of a 220* engine.


0.02

you are thinking to much race car billy 99% of these guys are street guys. Because of where the intercooler is sandwiched in the manifold there is tremendous heat transfer. the only way to alleviate that heat is with airflow across a heat ex-changer. Remember these are street cars that sit in traffic and do not always have 70mph+ of air flow going through the heat ex-changer. Now if this was a turbo application where the intercooler was not mounted on the engine than this would not be a problem:wink:

 

[stuntman]

you are thinking to much race car billy 99% of these guys are street guys. Because of where the intercooler is sandwiched in the manifold there is tremendous heat transfer. the only way to alleviate that heat is with airflow across a heat ex-changer. Remember these are street cars that sit in traffic and do not always have 70mph+ of air flow going through the heat ex-changer. Now if this was a turbo application where the intercooler was not mounted on the engine than this would not be a problem:wink:

:tongue:

I agree about the stop and go traffic having a lack of airflow and thus cooling (you could mount fans on the front mounted heat exchanger, but you aren't "on it" and generating the sustained boost and IAT's in stop and go traffic either :wink:.

Above 45mph there should be substantial airflow through a proper sized front mounted heat exchanger to cool the water which will cool a properly sized heat exchanger (inter/aftercooler) sandwiched between the engine and SC thus cooling IATs. I know you already know this but i'm just typing out loud. We're on the same page.

 

[TURBO2GO]

99% of these guys are street guys.. Remember these are street cars that sit in traffic...

Mike, I think everyone on this thread is on here because they track their cars and are looking for solutions there. I don't think any of us that have posted here care about heat soak down Rodeo Drive.

So help me understand... if I install this AEM you are selling with a meth kit, my stock ECU will show CELs. And therefore fail inspection. Right? Basically as soon as you install an AEM you are not street legal?

Do you have any data on an NSX setup with meth and your aem tune?

 

[dynomike]

Mike, I think everyone on this thread is on here because they track their cars and are looking for solutions there. I don't think any of us that have posted here care about heat soak down Rodeo Drive.

So help me understand... if I install this AEM you are selling with a meth kit, my stock ECU will show CELs. And therefore fail inspection. Right? Basically as soon as you install an AEM you are not street legal?

Do you have any data on an NSX setup with meth and your aem tune?

yes you will fail inspection at least in california. I will have data on a car this week. I have done several in the past but this will be fresh off the dyno. This is what we have done to this car

CTSC autorotor 9psi
Series 2 AEM EMS
AEM wide band uego sensors
Ct headers
custom burns Exhaust
AEM methanol injection
AEM fail safe Flow meter

I will post dyno sheets with and without methanol injection so that you can see the difference in power. I will also try and post some logs with and with out meth so that everyone can see the difference in IATs

 

[TURBO2GO]

Is it that difficult to come up with a black box of some sort that gives the factory ECU what it wants to see from injectors and coils? So that it says "All is normal", keeping the CEL functional and not lit and allowing cars to pass inspection? I mean a $5 02 extender keeps the engine from throwing a CEL, can't something be done about the other two? I am shocked no one has done this.

 

[RYU]

yes you will fail inspection at least in california. I will have data on a car this week. I have done several in the past but this will be fresh off the dyno. This is what we have done to this car

CTSC autorotor 9psi
Series 2 AEM EMS
AEM wide band uego sensors
Ct headers
custom burns Exhaust
AEM methanol injection
AEM fail safe Flow meter

I will post dyno sheets with and without methanol injection so that you can see the difference in power. I will also try and post some logs with and with out meth so that everyone can see the difference in IATs

I'm very interested in seeing your results. If they're promising I might have to pay you a visit.

What was the main purpose of this particular build? Was it high boost, cool IAT, and good AFR? Again, my original purpose for this thread is not for hp, I could care less about going over 350hp I just want cooler AITs but if higher hp was the byproduct then I guess I won't complain . Are you data logging IATs using the factory AIT sensor?

It's also interesting to note in the thread Mac-Attack posted, Shad did not notice any hp gains even after significantly lowering the AITs with meth. To me though, lowering the AITs is enough of a win in my book.

 

[Mac Attack]

Would the AEM F/IC be a "good enough" engine protective tuning device where you didn't have to use the full EMS for what we're talking about here?

The F/IC wouldn't throw any codes would it?

Appreciate all the help dynomike!

Dave

 

[TURBO2GO]

Would the AEM F/IC be a "good enough" engine protective tuning device where you didn't have to use the full EMS for what we're talking about here?

The F/IC wouldn't throw any codes would it?

Appreciate all the help dynomike!

Dave

It can't control ignition timing. Kind of a key element in making power and protecting the motor...

 

[Mac Attack]

It can't control ignition timing. Kind of a key element in making power and protecting the motor...

It's called a Fuel / Ignition Controller (F/IC) Not too familiar with it since I'm more interested in the EMS, but per AEM's website:

"The F/IC can retard timing from the factory system based on engine RPM and load inputs."

Sounds like it would be better than the OEM ECU in protecting your motor with a CTSC....

My $0.02.

Dave

 

[TURBO2GO]

It's called a Fuel / Ignition Controller (F/IC) Not too familiar with it since I'm more interested in the EMS, but per AEM's website:

"The F/IC can retard timing from the factory system based on engine RPM and load inputs."

Sounds like it would be better than the OEM ECU in protecting your motor with a CTSC....

My $0.02.

Dave

There is something... it can't advance timing then. Maybe Mike can chime in on using Meth/FIC, that would allow you to pass emmisions I think.

 

[BATMANs]

Would the AEM F/IC be a "good enough" engine protective tuning device where you didn't have to use the full EMS for what we're talking about here?

The F/IC wouldn't throw any codes would it?

Appreciate all the help dynomike!

Dave

I have threw fic. No cel issues.

 

[RYU]

It's called a Fuel / Ignition Controller (F/IC) Not too familiar with it since I'm more interested in the EMS, but per AEM's website:

"The F/IC can retard timing from the factory system based on engine RPM and load inputs."

Sounds like it would be better than the OEM ECU in protecting your motor with a CTSC....

My $0.02.

Dave

I have threw fic. No cel issues.

I believe the F/IC will work from my initial research. The takeaway I get is that it will require more time tuning vs. the EMS but it will work.

DDozier has had good success using both units. Perhaps he can chime in as well.

 

[BATMANs]

..... The takeaway I get is that it will require more time tuning......

The key with any power mods, especially the F/I ones is taking it to a reputable tuner. In my case, Driving Ambition...

 

[RYU]

The key with any power mods, especially the F/I ones is taking it to a reputable tuner. In my case, Driving Ambition...

Agreed, a good tuner is key. My point was the F/IC piggyback is more of a handful to get tuned properly on older cars. One has to take into account the factory ECU and such...

 

[BATMANs]

Agreed, a good tuner is key. My point was the F/IC piggyback is more of a handful to get tuned properly on older cars. One has to take into account the factory ECU and such...

i didn't know that. Shad makes it look so easy......