IMHO: The current market is the whipple blower, since the autorotor has been on only a short while. Comptech starting making the whipple blower in 95-96 and has sold appoxiametly 500-600 units VS the Autorotors under 2 year stint.
Intercooler'd Comptech Supercharger...atlast
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IMHO: The current market is the whipple blower, since the autorotor has been on only a short while. Comptech starting making the whipple blower in 95-96 and has sold appoxiametly 500-600 units VS the Autorotors under 2 year stint.
Comptech
yeah but the autorotor owners are.... cooler. :biggrin:
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At the current time we made the prototype for the whipple. I have not compared the intake manifolds between the whipple and autorotor.
However, I do see no reason why we arent going to be able to produce one for the autorotor as well. but we would need a vehicle w/ the autorotor for a test bed.
To answer your other questions:
Being an engine tuner myself, I always recommend a proper standalone engine management system. Biggest reason for this is because the lack of ability to control ignition timing properly (as for the fueling: the fmu comptech supplies can do the job ok, but its still providing very high fuel pressure which isnt entirely safe either). Any time you run a forced induction application, its vital to be able to control the fuel/ignition curves in order to obtain the potential of the setup, and retain reliability.
Comptech is able to get away w/ the supplied fuel setup because for one their kits dont flow all that much, their IAT's go sky high, and the the ecu pulls timing. And also comptech wants to be able to keep their kits carb legal, a standalone EMS will not be carb legal or 100% street legal.
Our current NSX we have build our prototype on, the engine is built, and compression is lowered. We did do some runs w/ the stock ecu, and as far as fueling concerns go, it will work just like the previous non-intercooled setup, with just adding about 3-5% fuel. However, my main concerns would be the ignition timing.
With all that being said, here is a snap shot of the difference between the non intercooled setup baselining right at 346. vs. w/ the intercooled setup at 376.
One thing I noticed right off the bat, if i did back to back runs when the setup was non intercooled, it would lose 5-10 whp each run. vs. doing back to back runs w/ the intercooled setup, and it pretty much held the same power each pass.
the next step is getting the smaller pulley on there, and doing some more testing. these passes w/ the intercooled setup ran a peak 8 psi dropping to 6 at redline, with the non intercooled setup, it ran a peak 9 psi dropping to 7 at redline.
To answer the other questions, I will release more pictures and specs soon.
There has been some discussion about releasing an entire intercooled supercharger kit. however, there would be some serious interest needed to go further. The NSX platform is exciting, however it is old, and we would need to decide if its worth going further producing products, as right now we have a few different projects in the works with other vehicles as well.
As always, i'll try my best to answer any other questions.
Regards,
Mase
However, I do see no reason why we arent going to be able to produce one for the autorotor as well. but we would need a vehicle w/ the autorotor for a test bed.
To answer your other questions:
Being an engine tuner myself, I always recommend a proper standalone engine management system. Biggest reason for this is because the lack of ability to control ignition timing properly (as for the fueling: the fmu comptech supplies can do the job ok, but its still providing very high fuel pressure which isnt entirely safe either). Any time you run a forced induction application, its vital to be able to control the fuel/ignition curves in order to obtain the potential of the setup, and retain reliability.
Comptech is able to get away w/ the supplied fuel setup because for one their kits dont flow all that much, their IAT's go sky high, and the the ecu pulls timing. And also comptech wants to be able to keep their kits carb legal, a standalone EMS will not be carb legal or 100% street legal.
Our current NSX we have build our prototype on, the engine is built, and compression is lowered. We did do some runs w/ the stock ecu, and as far as fueling concerns go, it will work just like the previous non-intercooled setup, with just adding about 3-5% fuel. However, my main concerns would be the ignition timing.
With all that being said, here is a snap shot of the difference between the non intercooled setup baselining right at 346. vs. w/ the intercooled setup at 376.
One thing I noticed right off the bat, if i did back to back runs when the setup was non intercooled, it would lose 5-10 whp each run. vs. doing back to back runs w/ the intercooled setup, and it pretty much held the same power each pass.
the next step is getting the smaller pulley on there, and doing some more testing. these passes w/ the intercooled setup ran a peak 8 psi dropping to 6 at redline, with the non intercooled setup, it ran a peak 9 psi dropping to 7 at redline.
To answer the other questions, I will release more pictures and specs soon.
There has been some discussion about releasing an entire intercooled supercharger kit. however, there would be some serious interest needed to go further. The NSX platform is exciting, however it is old, and we would need to decide if its worth going further producing products, as right now we have a few different projects in the works with other vehicles as well.
As always, i'll try my best to answer any other questions.
Regards,
Mase
Can you elaborate on this a little bit more? I understand the risks of being too lean, but I never clearly understood of being too rich, other than maybe fouled plugs due to too much fuel.... How SERIOUS is the risk and consequences
Mase, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I'm seriously interested. I would personally like to see something that could use the HKS V-PRO as to be able to keep all of the other factory options working unless you guys could come up with something else using another EMS solution. Personally, I would donate my car to you tomorrow but unfortunitaly COMPTECH closed before I could get a blower from them so I'm not sure it would do you any good.
Would be exciting to say the least if you guys come out with something to compete with COMPTECH. I'm not concerned about Carb Legal, I don't live in a state that checks that sort of stuff as I'm sure a lot of your potential customers don't either.
Keep up the great work and thanks again for looking into the NSX!!!! It may be an old platform but as you stated, it's still an exciting and rare vehicle...
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In general, its much safer to be overly rich, then lean. The consequences of being too lean will be felt almost right away you can easily melt a piston running too lean. Running overly rich, well isnt that dangerous, its a loss of power, and over time you may start building carbon deposits on the combustion chamber/exhaust ports/ clogging cats, not to mention fouling plugs quicker.
At this day and age when we have more ways to correctly tune an engine, there should be no reason why the car isnt running at its potential.
Now, The fuel system comptech supplies works for most people. however looking closer at the situation. you push the fuel components past the parameters they were designed for. Running injectors at very high fuel pressures is not safe (ive seen quite a few lock up). For instance, you have a rising rate fuel pressure regulator say at 12:1 ratio. now for every pound of boost, it raises fuel pressure 12 psi. So lets say you're running 7 psi. thats 84 additional PSI that the regulator is trying to supply the injectors, and ALSO the static fuel pressure on top of it. Lets say the car is operating at 45 psi static. thus the overall fuel pressure is 129 PSI. If you were to look at the flow charts to these common walbro fuel pumps, you would find that as pressure increases, the flow decreases. So adding a fuel pump controller to add additional voltage to the pump is their solution so they can supply enough to hold the required pressure.
Now how dangerous is this? well its probably not that common that these components fail, but the chances are a lot greater when you push high pressure, than if you were running a larger injector, a walbro at normal voltage, normal fuel pressures all in conjunction with a proper engine management system to control both the fuel and ignition curves.
With that being said, we still havent come to the issues with controlling ignition timing. These factory ECU's are mapped for a NA engine. In most cases adding forced induction, by raising the charge density of the cylinders, you will need less ignition advance. in fact an optimized ignition curve for a FI motor usually looks a lot different than one that is NA. This is why 9 times out of 10, when you add a engine management system, you will not only make the car safe, but it usually will gain power, and have smoother drivability.
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Thanks for your kind words.
To address some of your comments. You could certainly use the HKS engine management in just about any scenerio...NA, Turbo charged, supercharged, it would be able to control all of that. The downside to that engine management is that there are very few people who can tune it.
I have been around systems like the AEM EMS for quite some time now. Since mike at autowave developed a way to use the aem with the drive by wire cars by adding a harness, its quite easy, with just a little added cost for the harness. and this is the route we chose for this project. we are using aems newest nsx box, the 1042.
As for future development. and the blower itself..We are currently looking into some options mating a larger blower to an intercooled intake manifold like we prototyped. This would give us the potential to make quiet a bit of more power than the current setup, and still retain the reliability of the stock motor.
AEM - sounds good to me if everything in the car works such as TCS, all guages, etc... Would definitely make things easier tuning wise as you have already stated...
I'm still game...
I'm still game...
AEM will disable your CEL functionality. Would you consider that important? I do. This is something the HKS Vpro will keep. I have done A LOT of research into this. I talked to a lot of people, both AEM and HKS tuners. I really think the Vpro is a better unit. People that are tuners of BOTH will tell you that, and I am not talking about just Factor X, I talked to two tuners and they both said although they sell and install both they preferred the HKS Vpro. The Vpro is also the favorite of Hitoshi Tamura of GT-Rom on NA applications as well. It sits in his own car.
FWIW I also have done a lot of research into the whole CTSC/engine management issue. I have talked to AEM tuners, the guys at Factor X, and Shad from Comptech. Although Mase is right about what he is saying here, there are also issues with going the engine management route. Yes, the ignition is not perfect nor are A/F ratios with the base comptech system, but it does err on the safe side of things not the dangerous side. Factory injectors running on high fuel pressure is not ideal, but Comptech also never found any suitably reliable injectors to replace the Honda ones with in this setup when working on their own intercooler system. You are exchanging one small risk for another.
From my experience, and I am not a tuner, but have messed with this stuff a really long time, ALL these engine management systems are B class compared to what the factory does. What I mean is that in terms of reliability and stability, neither the AEM nor the HKS is a match for the Honda unit, even if the Honda is no longer giving correct instructions for your FI setup. If you think aftermarket ECU's do not have bugs and do not fail, I have many stories for you.
I am not disagreeing with what Mase is saying, because he is right. And perhaps this is not the best thread to say this on. But to me, I am not convinced that aftermarket engine management is necessarily better overall than what the Comptech system does. Please don't forget that with engine management, at the very least you now have a car that is illegal for road use. None pass OBDII emissions testing.
Bottom line is that either route has advantages and compromises. The thing that would push me towards the engine management side is actually the intercooler setup. If I did this, I think the combo should be Intercooler, fuel pump, injectors, pulley, engine management and tuning. This is a large enough step to where the merits probably outweigh the drawbacks. Without the intercooler, I would not do it.
TURBO2GO - I agree with everything that you are saying here, my hopes here are to stem competition within the market segment for the NSX. As for the NSX EMS, I can agree that it is very well designed; unfortunately, it cannot be flashed or programmed to do anything else but factory tune, which is why with all my reading I suggested the HKS V-Pro system in the beginning – (I want everything to work).
If there is one thing that I don’t like about the system is that there are so few tuners on the market and that the tuning will be limited to a DYNO unless you know someone that will bring their laptop to the track with you. I personally am not concerned about the last statement I made in regards to tuning but it would be nice to see what is going on within your vehicle and have the ability to make changes provided you know what your doing (I don’t fit into this category of people in the know). This is one reason I asked a while back in another thread what the functionality of the HKS Navigator for the V-Pro provided. Really didn’t get anything back with the exception of it may just be a fancy gauge of sorts giving you readouts.
Overall, I will be very excited to see what Stage 6 can come up with; I think it is great that a proven automotive performance shop is looking into providing another option for the NSX community just as HP, SOS, LoveFab, CompTech, and others have done…
***** I would think that Stage 6, since they are authorized to tune the AEM and HKS V-Pro along with other EMS's on the market, would be indifferent in the end what they used based on customer request although they may be more familiar with one or the other tending towards some favoritism*****
If there is one thing that I don’t like about the system is that there are so few tuners on the market and that the tuning will be limited to a DYNO unless you know someone that will bring their laptop to the track with you. I personally am not concerned about the last statement I made in regards to tuning but it would be nice to see what is going on within your vehicle and have the ability to make changes provided you know what your doing (I don’t fit into this category of people in the know). This is one reason I asked a while back in another thread what the functionality of the HKS Navigator for the V-Pro provided. Really didn’t get anything back with the exception of it may just be a fancy gauge of sorts giving you readouts.
Overall, I will be very excited to see what Stage 6 can come up with; I think it is great that a proven automotive performance shop is looking into providing another option for the NSX community just as HP, SOS, LoveFab, CompTech, and others have done…
***** I would think that Stage 6, since they are authorized to tune the AEM and HKS V-Pro along with other EMS's on the market, would be indifferent in the end what they used based on customer request although they may be more familiar with one or the other tending towards some favoritism*****
Commander there is a valid point you bring up about track tuning and Flexer has a point in his frustration of not being able to tune the Vpro himself on the fly. That point is that I have been advised by people I trust very much that "tuning" is a long term and very serious process. Tuners have told me that they have had this or that EMS on their personal cars for well over a year or two, and are "still tuning". You can have someone fly over, put your car on a dyno and do a tune for you, but as conditions change in the engine, in where you drive, in how you drive, in atmospheric conditions, etc., that tune may be far from optimal. A good tune takes time IMO. How do you do this well without having a tuner and his equipment at your disposal all the time? I am sure this was a question Comptech asked as well.
I am playing devil's advocate here to an extent, because I am sure any number of tuners feel very confident in their work and confident in their products. I am sure my post here will be adressed. Perhaps its because I have grown some gray hairs having been involved in this sort of thing in one way or another for many many years... and have seen the supposed bulletproof fail. Engine management is just a VERY difficult thing to do. A car manufacturer like Honda with vast resources probably spends a lot of time on this particular aspect. It is even harder to do well in the aftermarket. I mean the fact that you lose the ability to diagnose sensor failures via a CEL is a real problem as far as I am concerned. This is one in the foreground... what else is happening in the background that is not quite right? The Vpro which is one of the best available now may be a decent product, but I have to be honest and say I have dealt with some real crap in the past from HKS and from other manufacturers. The best I could describe some of the older EMS systems I had to deal with was M I C K E Y M O U S E.
Anyway I think I am hijacking the thread here a bit. I too want to see what Stage 6 can come up with, and am very apreciative of the hard work that guys like Mase do.
I am playing devil's advocate here to an extent, because I am sure any number of tuners feel very confident in their work and confident in their products. I am sure my post here will be adressed. Perhaps its because I have grown some gray hairs having been involved in this sort of thing in one way or another for many many years... and have seen the supposed bulletproof fail. Engine management is just a VERY difficult thing to do. A car manufacturer like Honda with vast resources probably spends a lot of time on this particular aspect. It is even harder to do well in the aftermarket. I mean the fact that you lose the ability to diagnose sensor failures via a CEL is a real problem as far as I am concerned. This is one in the foreground... what else is happening in the background that is not quite right? The Vpro which is one of the best available now may be a decent product, but I have to be honest and say I have dealt with some real crap in the past from HKS and from other manufacturers. The best I could describe some of the older EMS systems I had to deal with was M I C K E Y M O U S E.
Anyway I think I am hijacking the thread here a bit. I too want to see what Stage 6 can come up with, and am very apreciative of the hard work that guys like Mase do.
One thing the OEM ECU does nicely, that it doesn't appear the other boxes do well, if at all, is compensate for altitude (atmospheric pressure). A well-tuned car in Denver won't necessarily be well-tuned driving in the mountains at 10,000ft and could have a dangerous (lean) tune when taken to lower elevations. The local installer with the most CTSC experience tosses out the extra black-box (fuel-map) on the new Autorotor-based kit because that tune is way too rich in Denver and it gets worse as you go higher (stock ECU plus voltage clamp on MAP line is much better).
I would consider myself a decent tunner and you said it. My buddy's cars and my personal cars I am ALWAYS tinkering with, always fine tunning and making little changes and making the maps Better and better.
NO TUNNER that you fly in or just pay locally and just have him do a day of dyno pull tunning on your car is going to be able to touch a map that has been played with and fine tunned over the long haul.
So until V-pro offers the ability to tune it to the public then the V-PRO IS DEAD TO ME!
J. R.
NO TUNNER that you fly in or just pay locally and just have him do a day of dyno pull tunning on your car is going to be able to touch a map that has been played with and fine tunned over the long haul.
So until V-pro offers the ability to tune it to the public then the V-PRO IS DEAD TO ME!
J. R.
Has anyone considered using an open-source EMS like MegaSquirt (or contributing to the development of such to help it become suitable for the NSX if not already)?
I can't believe that website uses frames...I meant to link to the "features" page.
I can't believe that website uses frames...I meant to link to the "features" page.
I read a nice article in Grassroots Motorsports about using a Megasquirt on a '70's Volvo race car. Looked like a good choice for an upgrade for a car from the '70's. It only controls the fuel injection, no timing, VTEC, knock inputs so not really applicable to the NSX unless you want to try and rig a piggyback fuel controller.
I chose to go AEM, cost 1/4 of an engine rebuild...and should keep me from needing to rebuild it from bad tuning.:wink:
I know vtec can be contolled (not sure if via add-on or natively). There are also add-ons for timing (ignition) but not sure if they'd work with direct ignition without modification. It's not clear to me if the dynamic/real-time nature of the tuning it provides (based on inputs from lots of sensors) can include knock sensors. If not, would be a good feature to suggest or even contribute - and that knowledge would become public domain.
I got it.....but I am a little slow it took about 8 seconds....just like LOVIN in a Patpong bangkok pleasure house,just check (HER ) elbows...GET IT.. I KID! :biggrin:
All kidding aside nice job on the cooler.
Best Regards David
Any updates on this intercooler?
i've used a full megasquirt unit on a 4 cylinder motorcycle engine for a race-type of vehicle and it worked quite well. controlled fuel, spark, and a whole host of auxiliary inputs and outputs. theoretically, it would work for the nsx, but would you trust a piece of hardware that you built yourself with no warrentee or assurement? especially if total costs end up being like, 400 with a full wideband control unit and everything. i would trust it to a project car with a cheap engine replacement, but not with an nsx engine that is worth...well, alot.
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The car ended up making 410. 65 whp gain w/ the IC, Tuning, and one more psi of boost.
Sorry if I missed a post...is this ready to market? Approx $$??
Thx
Jeff
Thx
Jeff
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