Insurance for HPDE events

[Big_nate]

I don't know how many here read Sports Car Market, but there is an interesting article in this months issue regarding insurance coverage for accidents at HPDE events. Basically it states that most if not all insurance companies have changed their policy language to close the loophole on 'non-timed' or 'non-racing' events. Now they will exclude any accident that takes place on a race track or any surface not open to normal travel. So if you get into an accident at an HPDE, auto-X, or any event on a closed highway you're on the hook for your own losses with no liability protection or medical coverage. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge for those of you who track frequently but I was unaware of it and thought I should pass it on.

Nate

 

[CL65 Captain]

So they would rather cover it when you slide off one of the back country, twisty roads.

Nate, when are you going to bring your monster RX7 into CVG? There are some great driving roads around N KY. Old Route 17 down to Fallmouth, and a few others that are just minutes from the airport.

At least insurance will cover that.... :biggrin:

Jim

 

[Big_nate]

So they would rather cover it when you slide off one of the back country, twisty roads.

Nate, when are you going to bring your monster RX7 into CVG? There are some great driving roads around N KY. Old Route 17 down to Fallmouth, and a few others that are just minutes from the airport.

At least insurance will cover that.... :biggrin:

Jim

I've got recurrent in Feb, so if the weather is decent I'll definitely bring it down. The new cam should be in by then, shooting for 370-400 rwhp:biggrin:
The twin tip Tubi looks good BTW, I need to hear it under duress I seriously miss the sounds of the NSX.

Back on topic, I've been dying to do one of these HPDE things for years but this article has me thinking. Even if you can afford to write off your car, the personal liability and potential medical bills are way too risky. Obviously its still safer to be on a track them bombing down back roads but from a financial standpoint you're exposing yourself to a lot of risk at the track.

 

[CL65 Captain]

All you have to do is push the car out the parking lot.... "yea, it happened in this parking lot."

 

[nsx2tall]

Back on topic, I've been dying to do one of these HPDE things for years but this article has me thinking. Even if you can afford to write off your car, the personal liability and potential medical bills are way too risky. Obviously its still safer to be on a track them bombing down back roads but from a financial standpoint you're exposing yourself to a lot of risk at the track.

I'm guessing that when you refer to medical bills you're referring to those of another driver? Obviously, health care insurance would cover any of your own bills.

But I'm interested in the personal liability aspect of this. I have always looked at it as a free-for-all since everyone signs away his/her rights upon entering the facility. It's an assumption of risk that you could be hurt, whether your own fault or someone else's and that you accept liability for yourself. Whether that somehow translates into liability for causing an accident seems to be up for debate since the driver of another vehicle involved has essentially waived his rights for any claim as well. Are there any facts on the true liability risk in track events? Opinions?

As far as the car goes, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm fully prepared to accept the reasonably unlikely outcome of a damaged or totaled vehicle. I think you're a fool to think otherwise.

[edit: not to say that any of you are fools, maybe just overly optimistic]

 

[Feffman]

Hi All:

LaurelDE ( http://www.laurelde.com/) writes a policy that is covering cars for accidents while on track. I've no experience (thank God) making a claim with them, but will insure my car for the 2007 track season with them.

Feff

 

[NSXLuvr]

Alot of the Porsche guys use Laurel. However, I had read a thread that questioned their financial stability on rennlist.

That is one of the reason I bought my spec miata.

 

[cfra7]

You must read your complete policy to see if you’re covered. Don’t trust your agent because he probably doesn’t know.

 

[Da Hapa]

I don't know how many here read Sports Car Market, but there is an interesting article in this months issue regarding insurance coverage for accidents at HPDE events. Basically it states that most if not all insurance companies have changed their policy language to close the loophole on 'non-timed' or 'non-racing' events. Now they will exclude any accident that takes place on a race track or any surface not open to normal travel. So if you get into an accident at an HPDE, auto-X, or any event on a closed highway you're on the hook for your own losses with no liability protection or medical coverage. I'm not sure if this is common knowledge for those of you who track frequently but I was unaware of it and thought I should pass it on.

Nate

Unfortunately, this is the exact reason why I had to pass on the track sessions at NSXPO 2005.

In my case, matters were made worse because it isn't a simple matter of changing car insurance. I have my car, house and umbrella policies all with the same providers. Most providers want to tie up all your coverage like that so I couldn't simply pick up the phone and change that. And I'm not in the position to be able to walk away from a $50,000 asset if something happened to it.

Bummer.

 

[Alan C.]

I have done DE's and progressed into racing with HSR and PCA for the past 19 years. I have not damaged a car yet. It's a matter of knowing your limits and controling yourself. Start out slow and build your skills.

I bought an 88 944 turbo S in 88 and it was more than I could handle for several years. I think the same could be said for most people and a stock NSX. You don't have to set a record to have fun, just be safe.

All you have to do is push the car out the parking lot.... "yea, it happened in this parking lot."

This is how to get Bubba for a roomate

 

[docjohn]

From my experience most on track incidents involving more than one car are usualy dealt with as individual events,however these have not involved serious injury or death.Those cases I have read about or heard about where injury or death resulted do end up with parties suing everyone and anything in earshot of the event, so it is really up to the organizers and individual drivers to make these schools and open track events as safe as possible.Every driver out there should keep the potential for financial disaster in the back of thier noodles.:wink:

 

[Matt_337]

Just wanted to revive this thread due to the rennlist thread here

Well, for those with State Farm in Texas (like myself), I got the word today from my agent (off the record) that any track event will not be covered. In the past, they said it was ok but from now on (late last year actually), I will not be covered.

 

[GOTTSPD]

Looking at the RENNlist post, I was surprised to see that the coverage Laurel is offering is only for fixing the car, it's not a liability policy at all.

This whole scene makes me question whether I want to continue to participate in DE events. Yeah, I can drive, but the what ifs are of grave concern. Also, it's troubling to think that if some shmoe hits me, he won't have any liability coverage. Suing him individually would be costly and possibly of no value...

 

[nsx2tall]

Also, it's troubling to think that if some shmoe hits me, he won't have any liability coverage. Suing him individually would be costly and possibly of no value...

I'm still interested in knowing what the real liability exposure is in this case. Does the track waiver extend to other participants or just the track and track management? If you waive your right to sue the track do you also waive your right to sue another participant (thus you can't be sued by someone else either)?

It seems to me that a participant should have the assumption of risk that he could be hit by another driver and have no recourse for damages. You risk your own car and your own life no matter where the danger lies and would be entitled to nothing and liable for nothing beyond that. Renault can't sue Ferrari for jacking up their car into the wall at Monaco no matter who's at fault, right?

Can anybody post the text from a track waiver? Does it say that you waive rights to claims against other participants?

 

[Matt_337]

Just look at the unfortunate incident with Ben Keaton and his Carrera GT.

He took a passenger and he crashed. Both died. There's still lawsuits pending.
I'm sure there was a waiver signed previously.

My thinking is these waivers are useless if a fatality is involved. People are going to sue no matter what.

As for me, I accept the waiver in that once at the track, I am solely responsible for my vehicle but now that my insurance agent notified me (look at my previous post), I am really hesitant to go. And I was just now getting into it as far as going regularly....

 

[nsx2tall]

That doesn't answer the question though... if a waiver is useless then everybody is liable for everybody else regardless of circumstance. That is a situation I'd just as well avoid.

I get the impression that you think you need the right to sue another participant in order to participate youself in an HPDE?

 

[nsxotic911]

Other then LaurelDE, are there *any* major insurance companies that will provide coverage?

 

[SaberX]

This is upsetting as I have State Farm and always knew that they typically "covered and dropped you" if you stuffed your car at the track. Now that there is no track coverage that really affects my thoughts about track driving. Maybe I need a beater track car!

 

[nsxtasy]

The waivers signed at track events usually include language protecting everyone, not just the event organizers, from liability. Typical language runs along the lines that the signer:

HEREBY RELEASES, WAIVES, DISCHARGES AND COVENANTS NOT TO SUE the promoters, participants, racing associations, sanctioning organizations or any subdivision thereof, track operators, track owners, officials, car owners, drivers, pit crews, rescue personnel, any persons in any RESTRICTED AREA, promoters, sponsors, advertisers, owners, and lessees of premises used to conduct the EVENT(S), premises and event inspectors, surveyors, underwriters, consultants and others who give recommendations, directions, or instructions or engage in risk evaluation or loss control activities regarding the premises or EVENT(S) and each of them, their directors, officers, agents and employees, all for the purposes herein referred to as “Releasees," FROM .ALL LIABILITY TO THE UNDERSIGNED, his personal representatives, assigns, heirs, and next of kin FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE, AND ANY CLAIM OR DEMANDS THEREFORE ON ACCOUNT OF INJURY TO THE PERSON OR PROPERTY OR RESULTING IN DEATH OF THE UNDERSIGNED ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THE EVENT(S), WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE.

From what I've heard, the waiver is NOT "useless"; it helps. But if a situation needs to be settled by a jury in a courtroom, sometimes it's less a matter of the law, than it is a matter of who is the better attorney, the more sympathetic plaintiff/defendant, etc.

 

[nsx2tall]

Thanks Ken, it is as I expected.

As a participant in an HDPE the two things you risk are your life and your car. You are somewhat protected from being sued by another participant for damage to their car and vice versa (I say 'somewhat' here in reference to the unfortunate GT accident which shows you can still be sued anyway-- obtaining a favorable judgement is TBD though).

For those of us level headed types, the task then becomes determining whether or not there are any 'shmoes' in our run group. And to do our best to not be shmoes ourselves.

"Let the driver beware"

 

[titaniumdave]

I just checked my latest ALLSTATE policy, under exclusions:

(c) use of an auto at a track or course designed or used for racing or high performance driving.

Looks like I need to find additional coverage...

 

[alum04org]

For those of us level headed types, the task then becomes determining whether or not there are any 'shmoes' in our run group. And to do our best to not be shmoes ourselves.

"Let the driver beware"

I'm with Too Tall. My independant insurance agent (who has been excellent) has not provided much guidance on any available rider for a track day. I'm gonna keep after him...

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Life is Messy

to borrow a Rodney Crowell phrase. Is there risk? you bet. Can people objectively quantify their risk? Typically not worth a damn.

For HDPE, actual risk and perception of risk are a long ways apart and I think some underwriters are or will start to wake up to that. K&K insurance has run some ads that sound much more friendly to HDPE. If not yet, there will be policies to fill this void.

But insurance, waivers and all that aside, it's still a jungle out there kiddies, play carefully.

 

[nsxtasy]

A few points are worth adding.

Most of us understand that there is a risk of damaging our cars. Almost all on-track incidents in HPDE events involve only one car. And it is extremely rare that serious injuries occur in such incidents. So it is extremely rare for anything other than the value of the car to be at stake in the event of an on-track incident.

Therefore, think about the most common scenario in the unlikely event you experience an on-track incident that isn't covered by insurance: you have to incur the cost to repair or replace your car. The most you would need to pay is the value of the car itself, let's say $30K for an older NSX, or up to $50-60K for a newer one. Losses can happen. It's like experiencing a major mechanical failure; all of the sudden, your car drops in value by a lot of money, and there isn't anything you can do about it. Can you afford this? Would it wipe you out financially? If so, then you shouldn't be driving your car on the track. (Although if that much of your financial equity is tied up in your car, maybe you shouldn't own such an expensive car in the first place.) If it would be something you could work out, and you're willing to accept this risk, then keep driving on the track, and just hope that it doesn't come to that. (It's also worth noting that you can minimize the chances of this happening by not driving on the "ragged edge" of your capabilities when driving around the track, and building up speed in small increments while staying well within the boundaries of car control.)

Let's also consider the UNcommon scenario, where more than your car is at risk - specifically, your liability in the event of death or serious injury to someone else. This is where you could be liable for far more than the value of your car, possibly into the millions of dollars. The chances of this occurring are extremely remote - I doubt that they are as high as 1 in 1000 track incidents, and track incidents happen to perhaps 1 in 100 participants in a track event. But IF it happens, the financial consequences could be catastrophic. What's worse is that, while many of us (myself included) are aware of the risks involved in what we do, and would be highly reluctant to sue another track participant, that understanding and reluctance may not apply to our heirs in the event of a fatality. That's exactly what's going on in the litigation following the fatal Carrera GT incident at California Speedway (as noted here and here). FWIW, I consider the chances of such a possibility to be so remote that it's not worth worrying about - but that evaluation may not apply to those insurance companies who are changing the wording of their policies.

 

[DDozier]

You can greatly reduce your risk of damage by choosing the track and groups you run with very carefully. I have Gateway International in my back yard and I have not run on that track in two years, I am tempted every spring because it is so close by, but this track is less safe than say a Gingerman or Putnam Park. Also some groups treat their track days as a free for all and are far less structured than say the PCA or BMWCA, but then for the higher skilled drivers the PCA/BMWCA may post a higher risk being exposed to a larger group of drivers of different skill levels within the same drivers group. I myself prefer the smaller 1 day events ussually run on weekdays and made of much smaller driver groups, like those put on by private clubs. I am however very interested in any insite some one has on the possiblility of additional coverage. I wonder if a higher deductable, per event policy/rider could be arranged with a more progressive insurance company.

Dave