Insurance for HPDE events

This thread is why I bought the NSX. I can afford to write if off on the track. I would not want to take the hit on the Porsche.

For any of you with Farmers I believe they will stay pay for an unmodified car. So assuming you have a bone stock car they would cover it. That is, unless they have changed it since my last renewal which is coming up soon.
 
I just checked with USAA, they have a similar exclusion to Allstate...

Does any Insurance company still cover the car for non-competition events?????
 
I jsut checked with my Farmer's rep and they still cover an unmodified car for DE.
 
I received a call early this morning from Sherie Lowell at the Insurance Commissioners office in Georgia state.

She was rather tight lipped, only stating that there is an open criminal investigation into Pete at Laurel DE in which they were not cooperating, and as far as she could tell- they are not a licensed insurance company authorized to offer services in the US. No genuine information past the trackpedia article that was recently posted was thus garnered, and as always I'm sure there are two sides to every story being they are from Canada.

Confusing to me, they are very forth right over the phone with many other members using them.. and as I understood it... it was the PCA president whom approched the company to offer a club/track day program- and the company was 'feeling' the market out. I have heard that there core business was insuring teams in the Rolex 24 hour of LeMans.
 
I looked into this up here in Canada last year, and at least for Canada, all of the DE insurance options were shut down because they were "contrary to CDN insurance law". It had something to do with double coverage.

So, Im not clear if my policy has been rewritten as it seems many of yours have been, but if it has, maybe that has enabled third party coverage to once again begin operating up here.

To me, that would be a good thing. Given the choice between take my chances and threaten to sue my policy issuer over a track mishap (should there ever be one) that they refuse to cover or pay upfront for such coverage, Id pay upfront and avoid the risk of having my street insurance yanked.
 
I can afford to write if off on the track.

I'm really in a quandry here... I recognize that this is a personal evaluation of my financial scene, but I find myself questioning whether I could make the same statement.

I assume many if not most Prime members/NSX owners have 6 (or greater) figure incomes, thus, those in that income bracket, could likely afford (whether paid for in cash or financed) to buy the car (for the purposes of this discussion, I'm not considering those that are making $50K and putting all into the car and still renting their studio apartment because every dollar is going toward the car).

Assume that most of us paid at least $30K for the car. Clearly that $30K plus, whether financed or not, isn't preventing us from eating. However, what would happen if that $30K plus went down the drain because you totalled the car and it wasn't covered? How would you feel about it? Those that financed the car would be paying for an asset that they no longer can enjoy and those that paid cash would have pissed away a pile of cash. So, for me, the question of whether I can afford to lose that much money is a tough one. Will it break me? No, it won't (though my wife might kill me, which is an entirely different story), but it sure would suck. I don't have piles of $30K plus sitting around (unfortunately). $30K plus is real money to me. Thus, if the measure of this is can I lose it, well, I'm not sure I'm willing to. Granted I don't intend to wreck and I'm pretty conservative on the track, but I don't know what's going to happen. Heck, during my last track day, there were loads of close calls (like the mustang that blew its engine and spewed oil all over the track 2 cars in front of me) and wrecks, some of which were due to driver inexperience and/or overconfidence and some were just unavoidable (like the guy in my group who hit a dear that decided to take a walk across the track).

Thus, here are my options:

1.
Sell the NSX and get another car to track, such as an old 911 ($10K or so)(issues: maintenance on 15-20 year old Porsche???);

2.
Keep the NSX and get a Miata to track ($2-5K) (issues: (a) risk major spousal issues because then I'd have 3 cars and I'm keeping my daily driver (CTS-V) and (b) I have no place to store the Miata);

3.
Keep and continue to track the NSX just trying to be as reasonably careful as I can be; or

4.
Keep the NSX and don't track it or anything else because I'm afraid of my own shadow...

By the way, anyone know whether a forward facing child seat can fit in the back seat of an old 911 without having to move the front seat all the way forward? If so, that'd be kinda cool to be able to take my wife and daughter for Sunday drives....
 
I know where you are coming from GOTTSPD.

This whole situation has gotten me thinking a lot.

I'm waiting to hear back from Justin at K & K to find out what the premium would be for their "off road and storage" plan (this is what they categorized me as based on our phone call).
I am also awaiting a D&B comprehensive report on K&K that I ordered (just for peace of mind). Unlike Laurel, K&K has stated they are licensed for both Canada and the US.

If things don't work out for me as far as another source for insurance, then I may as well just go and look for a miata that I can play "bumper cars" with (I'm kidding when I say I will be playing bumper cars at the track). I just look at it like that now with having no insurance coverage out there.





Does anyone from Canada know anything about K & K?
I just got the D&B report and it looks very empty.
 
Edited:
Deleted the D&B report since it is not needed anymore
 
Last edited:
I assume many if not most Prime members/NSX owners have 6 (or greater) figure incomes

LOL. Other than a few Doctors.. I think that assumption would be mistaken. I'm sure the NSX vendors wish the NSX guys were like the F-car guys thou, I've heard of one F430 guy just last week buying 4 new OEM wheels at MSRP, chunk down 13K and not even blink an eye about it- service first. NSX Club? Right.. after the NSXCA discount they will be asking you to pay for shipping.

Most sales are second hand early models, with few ever seeing sticker on late models. Relatively, the NSX is a very affordable platform right now. Still, I think you would be hard pressed to find all that many 30K and under cars at area track events... I frequently see cars valued higher like newer BMW sedans and what not. I know six figures in many urban areas isn't what it used to be anyway, but as a matter of best guess I'd shoot for less. Most attendees are definitely there, to borrow a line from Tom... on a wing and a prayer... and losing a 30-50 grand plus asset will be a really big deal for them, as it would be for the vast majority of car enthusiasts from any car club. Others are most definitely welcome to their contrary opinions on this detail- but never lose sight of how many are there with their spiffy new car for the first time just to try something new. Novice groups get packed.



Thus, here are my options:

1.
Sell the NSX and get another car to track, such as an old 911 ($10K or so)(issues: maintenance on 15-20 year old Porsche???);

2.
Keep the NSX and get a Miata to track ($2-5K) (issues: (a) risk major spousal issues because then I'd have 3 cars and I'm keeping my daily driver (CTS-V) and (b) I have no place to store the Miata);

3.
Keep and continue to track the NSX just trying to be as reasonably careful as I can be; or

4.
Keep the NSX and don't track it or anything else because I'm afraid of my own shadow...

By the way, anyone know whether a forward facing child seat can fit in the back seat of an old 911 without having to move the front seat all the way forward? If so, that'd be kinda cool to be able to take my wife and daughter for Sunday drives....


IMHO, not an option you should ever have to consider. I am of the opinion that with a combination of good facilities, proper staffing, common sense, and a take no BS track master things get done right.. everyone has fun and takes their rides home in one piece. Does that mean that accidents cannot happen? They are rare, but absolutely not.

Could the car in front of you dump fluids? Could your engine catch fire or wheel studs fail? Could someone put a wheel off and roll over? Could a rare group mis-match happen whereas a veteran spooks a novice in his run-group and contributes to an incident unknowingly? The answer to all is yes, and they have.

However... could shelves fall off the back of a truck and kill someone? Could an elderly drive run a red light and crack your head open with their shiny chrome bumper as you have right of way? Could an impaired driver cross the center line in a blink of an eye causing you to check-out? Could a moron on his PDA slam into you? Again, sure, and they do everyday.

For everyone, it is a high stakes game of risks management, and some play the game better than others.

So far as I am aware, underwriters have nothing to go on. There is no statistic clearing house for DE driving or open lapping days. So, none of us really know what the facts are or are not. This is all relatively new, and I have heard the ripple with track enthusiasts as things have been changing lately.

I think it is very wishful thinking to depend on generalist policies to cover on-track incidents. However, policies state what they do, and you get the coverage that you pay for. If they do not specifically exclude it, then coverage is implied and they should cover it and drop you in good faith. Not happy with your provider's updated policies? Move on. As demand ramps up, hopefully more options will emerge lest otherwise perhaps demand will surge for Miatas or carting.

However, I think it would be horrible for track and driving enthusiasts to get lumped into the category of storm chasers. As many of us know.. there is perception and then there is reality. Many of us have years of events with no problems- doing what we do best.. having fun and bringing our cars home in one piece.

It's a passion with genuine stakes, and it is inherently an environment where there is no room for mistakes. It is one of the only sports that you put everything on the line. Those whom are not critical thinkers and do not consider all the variables out there won't last long. I'll provide an example.

It was pouring down rain in miserable conditions at the last Audi day last year with hydaulic fluid scattered.. the slowest paced lapping day ever at PIR.. and and some driver approached me and hassled me for let-bys and not 'pushing it harder on the back section'. Ok, mind you, I'm hitting 39mph in the corners and 89-91mph on non-directional dry tires in a ME RWD car over wet leaves in a car that cost four times as much as his.. mind you without stability control systems, AWD, or F1GSD3's to save my butt. Every time his ESP light came on I would have been in the grass. Interesting day for egos. I immediately replied, "Ok, well perhaps I just value my ride more than you do because any pro team manager will tell you that racing in the rain just costs cubic dollars, and I didn't fax in my coverage form in advance for this event" and walked away- ego well intact.

My point being, judgments aren't always made in the drivers seat- they start when you sign the waiver at the gate. You put your expensive 50, 75, or 100 grand sports or race car on a race track in an environment that is "everyone for themselves" and you better be re-assessing all the details all the time making good decisions every second. As Alan mentioned, that's why the used NSX sounds a lot better than the GT2 for his purposes- not everything is about performance. Would you take your NSX to a demolition derby or care if someone in a SCCA spec miata traded paint with you? I think so.

The best verb age I've ever heard ushered at a track meeting was BE PREDICTABLE. You get guys stopping at corner worker stations on blind corners or doing something genuinely stupid out there and the risks begins to multiply exponentially for everyone.. and there are already too many things that can't be controlled. I probably bumped myself between run-groups a handful of times this year because I thought there was an idiot in my group. It's not like you are always out there with pro drivers be aware.

So, the best I can offer is make good decisions, starting at the gate. For some, that live their lives in the safety zone... this very well might mean not showing up with hardware as expensive as an NSX until more progress is made in this area, or getting something more affordable like a Formula Ford or Spec Miata.

I can promise you one thing, things are changing over the next several years.. and quite likely the days of paying a few hundred bucks a quarter will soon be long over. You want full stated value coverage out there.. on a six figure sports car on a race track.. it is going to cost you big... no different than it does at any other pro racing avenue. You also need to do your research, and make sure your cashiers check is going to a legit company as most of the specialty track insurance providers in this area have either backed out very quickly after a year or two or turned out to be vapor ware.
 
Last edited:
LOL. Other than a few Doctors.. I think that assumption would be mistaken. I'm sure the NSX vendors wish the NSX guys were like the F-car guys thou, I've heard of one F430 guy just last week buying 4 new OEM wheels at MSRP, chunk down 13K and not even blink an eye about it- service first. NSX Club? Right.. after the NSXCA discount they will be asking you to pay for shipping.


You don't think that most NSX owners are making a min. of $100k?
 
You don't think that most NSX owners are making a min. of $100k?
I sure do. Not all, by any means, but most (i.e. more than 50 percent). Even though at this point a lot more cars were bought used for $20-40K than new for $70K+. It takes a pretty good income to afford an expensive, relatively impractical two-seat sports car that, more often than not, is an additional car in the household and not a daily driver.
 
I received a call early this morning from Sherie Lowell at the Insurance Commissioners office in Georgia state.

She was rather tight lipped, only stating that there is an open criminal investigation into Pete at Laurel DE in which they were not cooperating, and as far as she could tell- they are not a licensed insurance company authorized to offer services in the US. No genuine information past the trackpedia article that was recently posted was thus garnered, and as always I'm sure there are two sides to every story being they are from Canada.

Confusing to me, they are very forth right over the phone with many other members using them.. and as I understood it... it was the PCA president whom approched the company to offer a club/track day program- and the company was 'feeling' the market out. I have heard that there core business was insuring teams in the Rolex 24 hour of LeMans.

Does anyone else have any knowledge or experience with Laurel?

I have spoken to them on the phone and they seem forthwright and have been honest as to their nature and the limitations that apply to their coverage. I believe they are not the actual insurance company that underwrites the policy. That company is in Australia and its name escapes me at present. Laurel seems to be sort of a broker or managing agent?

My insurance policy has the old policy language that will cover an incident at an HPDE (I made a claim 9/05 based on an incident at an HPDE). Nevertheless, I want a dedicated track policy in case the language changes or they try to avoid covering an incident.

I am seriously considering the Laurel policy, as they will insure both the M3 and the NSX for 10 track days in a year on the same policy, at $30k w/a $5k deductible, for approx. $880. That is a bit steep, but well worth it if they will in fact pay a claim when it occurs.

Obviously, your post is cause for concern. Is there any additional information about Laurel?
 
Well, I finally got the results from my conversation with K & K.

They do not have a policy covering on track events for individuals like ourselves. They do have a policy for racecars like in ALMS, etc..

As for Laurel, K & K only confirmed what was said about them in another post. Laurel had a deal with PCA (Porsche Club of America) and they are not licensed brokers for the U.S.

I am still not deterred from tracking my car but I will only go with certain groups and will definitely stay far away from any "schmoes" at the track. I can only hope that someone will step up in the near future for insurance at HPDE's.
 
Straight from the laurelde web site;

LEGAL INFORMATION:
The coverage you are requesting is from an insurance company that is not licensed in the United States of America or Canada.

This company is called a "non-admitted" or "surplus lines" insurer. This company is not subject to the financial solvency regulations and enforcements which apply to State, U.S. or Canadian licensed companies.

The insurance company does not participate in any of the insurance guarantee funds created by State, U.S. and Canadian law.

Therefore these funds will not pay your claim or protect your assets if the insurance company is unable to make payments as promised.For additional information, you should contact your insurance agent/broker, " surplus line" broker, the State Department of Insurance or Provincial Insurance Commission.

So, they can choose not to pay if they decide they 'can't afford it'.
 
So, they can choose not to pay if they decide they 'can't afford it'.

Not exactly. If they go bankrupt, the guarantee funds won't protect you.

If they refuse to pay but are solvent, your option is to sue, as it is with any insurance company licensed or otherwise.
 
I have been struggling with the NSX and DE insurance issue too. I decided to get a SM and bring out the NSX once or twice a year.

Anybody come up with any other choice other than Laurel?
 
State Farm still covers DE days, no competition, no timing rules. I am signing up, will have coverage this season at least.
 
State Farm still covers DE days, no competition, no timing rules
Well, what's up with them?? !!! One would like to think they realize most guys are trying to be safe and HDPE makes for better drivers...... but that would make too much sense. :rolleyes: So what could they possibly be thinking? :confused:

Saw a new Viper get totalled yesterday at a track day. Wonder what company he has (had).
 
Some companies will cut you more slack if you have been with them for many years. Even more so if you have a personal agent who would "go to bat" for you in the event of any question. So you may want to take this into account if you're thinking of changing companies.
 
The latest written policy I have on file from Country Insurance & Financial has the following exclusion (among others like intentional damage, use as a taxi, & damage from radiation):

...while preparing for or participating in any race, competitive speed or pulling activity or to bodily injury or property damage arising from that activity.

I intend to never harm my vehicle at a HPDE, but wanting to be covered in that unlikely event (stay within my coverage) is one of the reasons I'm strict about participating in only non-competitive HPDEs and one of the reasons I'm with Country. Country is good for other reasons too, like great rates and a good agent (I've been told the great rates have something to do with low claim frequency compared to the industry as a whole, resulting from specializing in insuring persons they consider "low risk").
 
State Farm still covers DE days, no competition, no timing rules.
That sentence is ambiguous. Are you saying they have no exclusions regarding competition or timing (you can race/compete all you want and be covered, there are no rules against them)...or that they have exclusions in the case of (they have rules saying "no" to) competition or timing?
 
That sentence is ambiguous. Are you saying they have no exclusions regarding competition or timing (you can race/compete all you want and be covered, there are no rules against them)...or that they have exclusions in the case of (they have rules saying "no" to) competition or timing?
For a long time, their coverage has excluded "competition and timed events". Which just about everyone else's coverage has excluded, too.

As noted in this topic, most companies are expanding the exclusion beyond that long-time limitation - in many cases, to any activity (including HPDE events) taking place on a track designed for competition and timed events (just paraphrasing here).
 
But I'm interested in the personal liability aspect of this. I have always looked at it as a free-for-all since everyone signs away his/her rights upon entering the facility. It's an assumption of risk that you could be hurt, whether your own fault or someone else's and that you accept liability for yourself. Whether that somehow translates into liability for causing an accident seems to be up for debate since the driver of another vehicle involved has essentially waived his rights for any claim as well. Are there any facts on the true liability risk in track events? Opinions?
My understanding is there is a fuzzy line that, onced crossed, waivers (even if they address it in their language) generally do not apply. They're not a license to be stupid or neglegent without consequence. I'm quite certain the presence of a waiver signed by everyone would not even begin to shield me from liability if, at a HPDE, I intentionally rammed all of the cars there. The fuzzy line is somewhere between that and a one-car accident in your own car without passenger (nobody else is liable for your car except you...and maybe your insurance company if covered by policy).

The waiver, IMO, does more to prevent stupid lawsuits like "they shouldn't have let me on the track with my experience, I hurt my car/self, they should pay."
 
Back
Top