HP Turbo Installation Started

[omeys_berlina]

John, good to see you got those plugs changed. I also have the final tune if you would like me to e-mail you (Help a brotha out). Its @ 8psi. Is your pump strong enough for pumping the water to the front?? I was thinking about relocating the heatexchanger on the right side of the engine where the AC fan is, see what happens. Did you notice a difference in temps when you reversed the polarity on the heat exchanger?

Regards...and may the BOOST be with you...

 

[DDozier]

The temps measured were with the stock IAT sensor, through the AEM... The water temperature was not measured./QUOTE]

Have you updated the reference table for the IAT sensor in the AEM, the table provided with the base cal should be modified. Many have found the stock cal and the honda sensor do not match, AEM states the values in the table are from a Honda Service Manual, but others have taken the sensor and built a new table based on real world testing. The S2000 guys have done a lot of work with the IAT and coolant sensor tables.

The info is here on AEMPower, but you may want to search for more info as I only did a quick search to find this table.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,13003.msg84757.html#msg84757

Dave

 

[scorp965]

Here are some pictures from today; I went to a new tuner, Powertrain Dynamics in Huntington Beach, and had the car retuned...

Here is a graph early during the tune:

Apparently the car, after being tuned at Church Automotive, was running very lean at idle, which caused my stalling problem. The problem got worse from there - the car was running a huge amount of fuel, you can see the initial run in green on the above graph, there was so much fuel the new tuner didn't want to go past ~5500rpm on this tune, for fear of fouling the spark plugs, the AFR was well under 10:1 - this tuner could not believe the car had been tuned on a dyno. Intake air temperatures were another story... when the car was allowed to idle they would increase slowly to 170F, but when the car was given throttle they would drop to around 135F under full load in the span of perhaps 7-8 seconds. The 170F figure was a result of apparent manifold heat soak on the OEM temperature sensor.

With the fueling put back in order, and some increased timing, Powertrain dynamics was able to create significant improvement - there was never a full throttle run completed with the Church Automotive tune, but the partial run, compared to the final tune, had a delta of over 30rwhp by 5500rpm - this is with 1.5psi less boost.

The final dynojet numbers, uncorrected, ended up at 382.5rwhp and 283.0rwtq at 8psi. Here is the final graph:

 

[scorp965]

Youtube clips...

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[WOODY]

Nice AFR and torque curves!

 

[GQ NSX]

Don't know what to say but I absolutely love your car, and have been following your build very closely. I remember Church Automotive had good reviews from my 350z days, so that info is somewhat unsettling. IS this new shop NSX specific? Can you give any impressions on how the NSX feels with the turbo?

Thanks man,
Ravi

 

[scorp965]

Don't know what to say but I absolutely love your car, and have been following your build very closely. I remember Church Automotive had good reviews from my 350z days, so that info is somewhat unsettling. IS this new shop NSX specific? Can you give any impressions on how the NSX feels with the turbo?

Thanks man,
Ravi

The new tuner is one that was recommended by Jimmy at HP performance, it's a dyno/fab shop in Huntington Beach, and the tuner was very professional, taking the time to explain what he was doing along the way. This is the shop that tuned the first HP turbo nsx, which was magazine featured, and led to another thread here on prime, which included scans of the installation article.

The car seems a good deal faster with this new tune, this is impressive, given the car has 1.5psi less boost. What I find interesting is the efficiency of the setup; figure a stock nsx will make around 250rwhp on a dyno - this kit is producing 8psi, which is around 0.55ATM - 1.55 atmospheres * 250rwhp = an ideal 387.5rwhp - the car made 382.5rwhp.

 

[winreboot]

Good job with the new tune, but I think you are not making too goodtq I think it should be in 300's. What are the specs on the turbocharger, I think you are running too big turbine on exhaust side. I'm sure with higher boost it will not matter anymore. I don't know but looking at the dyno, you must get 8psi around 4.5k rpms? Running air to water should stay under 150F. On my setup I run air to water with 5gallon tank and on dyno day 92F I run 148F all day long. I'm sure it must be fun to drive now with new tune

Dave

 

[scorp965]

Good job with the new tune, but I think you are not making too goodtq I think it should be in 300's. What are the specs on the turbocharger, I think you are running too big turbine on exhaust side. I'm sure with higher boost it will not matter anymore. I don't know but looking at the dyno, you must get 8psi around 4.5k rpms? Running air to water should stay under 150F. On my setup I run air to water with 5gallon tank and on dyno day 92F I run 148F all day long. I'm sure it must be fun to drive now with new tune

Dave

The turbo is the base unit for the HP kit, initially it was a 61mm turbo, but that unit was bad, so a replacement compressor side was shipped - the replacement compressor was much larger, 70mm. The turbo is a T3 shape, bushed, produced by Garrett - I cannot get any more specific than that, perhaps Jimmy could chime in on the exact specifications.

Full boost is seen around 4500rpm, you can see the wastegate actuation in the 'final dyno' graph, actual intake temperatures are probably around the 130F range, we were reading values around 130-140F from the car in the middle of a full throttle run, but at idle, within the span of a minute, the temperature would increase to 170F - application of the 'go pedal' would result in rapidly falling temperatures, until they were once again under 140F - if the temp sensor was located in the charge pipe it would *probably* return values in the 130-140F range the entire time, but, due to its location in the manifold, when the car is allowed to idle heat transfers into the aluminum piece, and the sensor reads higher values. It's counter intuitive to believe temperatures would decrease significantly under a full throttle run, but thats exactly what happened.

 

[stevenlee]

Scorp, how are your IAT's whole driving on the road with the new aftercooler vs the old one?

Have you measured the water temp in your IC water tank? That will help you to understand the effect of heat soak at the OEM sensor location.

I just checked my own IAT's and water temps. I am seeing IAT's of 95 degrees to 130 degrees in normal driving... up to 135 while idiling for a minute. With ambient air temps between 75-88 degrees. I haven't checked temps after idiling for a long time yet. My water temps were a few degrees lower than the IAT's. I have 2 water-cooled, ball bearing turbos. My temp sensor is relocated to the front of the throttle body.

 

[scorp965]

Scorp, how are your IAT's whole driving on the road with the new aftercooler vs the old one?

Have you measured the water temp in your IC water tank? That will help you to understand the effect of heat soak at the OEM sensor location.

I just checked my own IAT's and water temps. I am seeing IAT's of 95 degrees to 130 degrees in normal driving... up to 135 while idiling for a minute. With ambient air temps between 75-88 degrees. I haven't checked temps after idiling for a long time yet. My water temps were a few degrees lower than the IAT's. I have 2 water-cooled, ball bearing turbos. My temp sensor is relocated to the front of the throttle body.

Unfortunately I do not have any data from the initial cooler, it was on the car for only a few days, and I believe, based on the second tuner, who produced a much-better-running car, the first tune was suspect. In addition the stock IAT sensor, it seems, is not optimal for measuring the intake temperature, and was prone to heat soak during dyno sessions. I just installed the AEM IAT sensor kit on Friday, the mounting location is right after the heat exchanger, about 6" up from the throttle body.

On Friday, with 80F temperatures outside, this sensor showed a idle temperature of 97F, and after two full throttle runs it read 99F... It's my intention to do a fair bit of additional data logging, but my personal laptop does not have a serial port for connecting to the AEM - I have ordered an adapter card, which should arrive next week. Fwiw, the water temperature for the cooler was measured at 87F after these two full throttle runs.

 

[scorp965]

Here is a clip of the straight pipe exhaust (no muffler) installed on the 10th:

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and some drive by's taken by nsxsupra last week:

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[stevenlee]

Scorp,
Thanks for the update on the new IAT's with the larger heat exchanger. It appears to have made a huge difference.
I'm running a large Oil cooler in front of the radiator and am considering adding another second cooler or going with the heat exchanger you're using.
How difficult was it to fit your heat exchanger? Did you need to cut anything to make it fit? Any other info and impressions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[scorp965]

Scorp,
Thanks for the update on the new IAT's with the larger heat exchanger. It appears to have made a huge difference.
I'm running a large Oil cooler in front of the radiator and am considering adding another second cooler or going with the heat exchanger you're using.
How difficult was it to fit your heat exchanger? Did you need to cut anything to make it fit? Any other info and impressions would be greatly appreciated.

Steven,

There was an AC part that needed to be moved upwards by an inch or so, and part of its bracket was cut away, but aside from that the installation was very straight forward. There is a small metal shelf the heat exchanger sits on, we attached a bungee cord around the cooler, then used small metal brackets and self drilling screws to attach the cooler to the car. The cobra uses essentially two rubber fittings, which slide over the cooler's brackets, to secure the cooler to the front end - on our application the metal brackets attached to these same mounting points, with the barbs facing forward. The installation took perhaps 45 minutes, including bumper removal.

Pics from the install are higher up on this page, here is the direct link:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=831658&postcount=165

Note, the actual dimensions of the cooler are smaller, the ones quoted on the summit page (and by myself, earlier on this thread) include the brackets - the cooler still appears to be the 'perfect size' for the nsx. I will update this thread once I have a better idea as to my intake temperatures over the course of a drive. The ones above are plugged into a laptop at the shop, then perhaps 15 seconds of full boost twice in 5 minutes, then 5 minutes at idle as the laptop was reconnected, etc.

 

[scorp965]

Scorp,
Thanks for the update on the new IAT's with the larger heat exchanger. It appears to have made a huge difference.
I'm running a large Oil cooler in front of the radiator and am considering adding another second cooler or going with the heat exchanger you're using.
How difficult was it to fit your heat exchanger? Did you need to cut anything to make it fit? Any other info and impressions would be greatly appreciated.

Steven,

I have been datalogging for the last few days, and have seen a high temperature of 120F on a day when the in-car temp gauge in my Audi read 108F - earlier tonight, at our monthly SCA meet, I did a few full-boost "demonstration laps" (perhaps 8 total runs), and saw the warmed up temp of 102F reach a maximum temp of 108F on the final run. The cooler, and relocated IAT sensor, seems to have done the trick... Even though this cooler appears to be somewhat overkill for my application, the cooler arrangement has been fully setup, and is ready for potential future power increases - it seems to have ample cooling capacity.

 

[SENNAF1]

Wont the heat off the turbo cook your cv boot?

 

[stevenlee]

Scorp,

Thanks for the temperature readings.
I ended upgrading my Heat exchanger system by adding a second heat exchanger (BM Supercooler #70273) 11 inches wide by ~8 inches tall.

I hope to get it on the road this coming week to see the difference in temps.

I noticed that you have the same filler cap and flange on your water tank that I have. The flange on mine ended up rusting a lot. I just bought an RCI 6 BOLT cap & flange assembly that is all plastic to replace the rusting metal flange. (P/N: RCI-7030A-6BOLT). It looks like it will be a direct replacement with the same bolt pattern.

Aloha,
Steven Lee

 

[scorp965]

I just picked up one of these:

I will be going back to the tuner in the next few weeks, given the super-low IAT readings I have seen while data logging I am going to increase the boost at high rpm, so the car will initially run 8psi through the wastegate spring, but at around 6500rpm it will transition into 10psi. This should result in power somewhere in the range of 415-420rwhp, assuming similar boost/power ratio.

I will keep this thread updated with the results... I will also have the tuner setup the AEM launch control feature.

 

[scorp965]

I went to have the car tuned today, unfortunatly the AEM boost solenoid wouldn't actuate. We were able to crimp the vaccum line to increase wastegate boost, but the solenoid, even at 85% duty, would not move. We checked the wiring, and put a volt meter on the connection (C10) on the EMS - no power was seen on this wire. After a few hours of troubleshooting the tuner said he would call AEM on Monday, and I will try again on Tuesday.

The problem seems to be internal to the AEM, either something in the software (unlikely, as the tuner has used this boost solenoid before), or the unit itself is defective.

He did tweak my old map slightly, and compared the car without muffler to the original dyno run, with the old magnaflow, and found a pleasing increase in power. Here is the dyno chart comparison:

(note the gain of over 20rwtq at 3500rpm)

And a camera phone video of the initial run:

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[my1stnsx]

I went to have the car tuned today, unfortunatly the AEM boost solenoid wouldn't actuate. We were able to crimp the vaccum line to increase wastegate boost, but the solenoid, even at 85% duty, would not move. We checked the wiring, and put a volt meter on the connection (C10) on the EMS - no power was seen on this wire. After a few hours of troubleshooting the tuner said he would call AEM on Monday, and I will try again on Tuesday.

The problem seems to be internal to the AEM, either something in the software (unlikely, as the tuner has used this boost solenoid before), or the unit itself is defective.

He did tweak my old map slightly, and compared the car without muffler to the original dyno run, with the old magnaflow, and found a pleasing increase in power. Here is the dyno chart comparison:

(note the gain of over 20rwtq at 3500rpm)

And a camera phone video of the initial run:

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Car sounds mean!!! Congrats on the new gain!!!

 

[da3dalus]

So, now you're just running straight pipes? I would actually think this might not sound too loud given the exhaust is going to be muffled by the turbo... A nice 20hp is a good find!

Did that larger exchanger end up making a big difference on keeping things cool for you?

Keep up the great work. Sucks about the AEM, but as you know, thats just how things go with builds like this. Take it one day at a time.

 

[C-speed]

I went to have the car tuned today, unfortunatly the AEM boost solenoid wouldn't actuate. We were able to crimp the vaccum line to increase wastegate boost, but the solenoid, even at 85% duty, would not move. We checked the wiring, and put a volt meter on the connection (C10) on the EMS - no power was seen on this wire. After a few hours of troubleshooting the tuner said he would call AEM on Monday, and I will try again on Tuesday.

The problem seems to be internal to the AEM, either something in the software (unlikely, as the tuner has used this boost solenoid before), or the unit itself is defective.

First off, Congrats on your set up! As for the AEM, you need connect the boost control solenoid to 12V switched power and C10. You will NOT see 12V at C10 with a voltmeter as the signal from it (the AEM) is alternating (a wave - not constant) since it operates via a duty cycle - like an injector - to control the boost solenoid.

Also, if your tuner started with a stock NSX base map, most likely he did not ACTIVATE (ie: turn on) the boost control feature in the AEM PRO software. The option is in the Boost Menu.

One way to check if you've wired it correctly and that BC is activated, is to turn the ignition on (but do not start the car), you should hear the solenoid clicking very slowly. Then if you use your hand and open the throttle (or have someone step on the accelerator), you should hear the solenoid click faster.

No click = not wired correctly/not working.


Also, as a side note: you wouldn't happen to know what the smoothing factor was set to on your dyno graph do you? (usually its printed on the graph, but I guess they removed it)

I ask because, your graph is pretty wavey. You generally want the smoothing factor to be at least 3.. (5 being max) to smoothen out the graph and remove irregularities from the dyno run itself. If the smoothing factor was indeed between 3-5 for your run, then I'd be somewhat concerned with your state of tune. Wavey lines (in my experience) can be due to detonation. And from the looks of things, its detonating the moment you make peak boost all the way to redline.

If your tuner is familiar with the AEM, have him log a run and take a look at the knock count and severity (knock voltage) and see if it really is knock or not (i'm assuming your exhaust is too loud to actually hear it physically).

Just and FYI.


Good luck.

 

[scorp965]

First off, Congrats on your set up! As for the AEM, you need connect the boost control solenoid to 12V switched power and C10. You will NOT see 12V at C10 with a voltmeter as the signal from it (the AEM) is alternating (a wave - not constant) since it operates via a duty cycle - like an injector - to control the boost solenoid.

Hello,

Thank you for this input, this was the issue with the boost solenoid, as I discovered shortly after writing my last post. What's perhaps a bit humerous about the situation is we were holding the solenoid directions in our hands, which mentioned switched +12, and staring at the AEM, and could not understand why it was not actuating. Only after returning home, and looking at the manual from the AEMpro directory, on a computer, did the error become apparent.

Also, as a side note: you wouldn't happen to know what the smoothing factor was set to on your dyno graph do you? (usually its printed on the graph, but I guess they removed it)

I ask because, your graph is pretty wavey. You generally want the smoothing factor to be at least 3.. (5 being max) to smoothen out the graph and remove irregularities from the dyno run itself. If the smoothing factor was indeed between 3-5 for your run, then I'd be somewhat concerned with your state of tune. Wavey lines (in my experience) can be due to detonation. And from the looks of things, its detonating the moment you make peak boost all the way to redline.

I mentioned this to my tuner today, and determined the smooting factor was 5 - he said the irregularities appear to be drive train 'noise', and pointed out where the bumps seem to get closer together, in a similar pattern, as engine speed increases. He then changed something in the timing, and ran the car again, asking me to look for any puff of smoke in the exhaust gas - no smoke was emitted (he asked me to look for black smoke), leading him to conclude there was no detonation.

---

This morning I went to 'JMC auto repair' (a muffler shop) and had a exhaust pipe fabricated for the wastegate. Prior to this pipe the wastegate was dumping hot exhaust on my ebrake cable, which was melting away the plastic.

Here is a picture of the pipe:

You can also see the melted ebrake cable on the right.

After this I went to Niguel Motors, where we disabled the VVIS system by placing a cap over the #3 vacuum line. Then it was off to the tuner.

We ended up not using the boost solenoid to increase boost, the car made a suprising increase in power by disabling the VVIS system, to the point where increasing the boost, while it would have created impressive numbers, didn't seem necessary.

Here is the final run, at 8.0psi (418.8rwhp, 317.3rwtq):

 

[stuntman]

Do you have a picture of your turbo location/muffler (or straight pipe) setup? -so you can see the whole layout as a whole?

 

[scorp965]

Do you have a picture of your turbo location/muffler (or straight pipe) setup? -so you can see the whole layout as a whole?

The layout can be seen in pictures on the first few pages, the straight pipe itself is as simple as it could possibly be, essentially there is a 3" downpipe coming off of the turbo, which in turn goes into a Y pipe, which splits the 3" into 2x2.25" pipes - these are then bent to the valance exits, where 2 y-pipe "quad" exhaust tips are located.