How is the new NSX supposed to compete with this???

[QUICKIE]

Acura/Honda hasn't done well with high end buyers/cross shoppers in the past.....

BTW, what is your NSX ownership history?

I never was attracted to the original NSX; it did not appeal to me visually, at all. So, I've no ownership history.
However, I understand what you are saying with regards to regular vehicles and 'cross shopping'. This new NSX appeals to me visually and tech-wise ...... So, I've got a deposit down for one.

 

[JD Cross]

I think that to sell a car for over $150K, it is much easier if the marque has a certain history and panache.
Certainly Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche etc. all have that cachet.
When you consider the owners of these marques you find VW, Fiat and others none of whom are known for making special cars.
However the owners of the marques have carefully kept the history and traditions of these marques intact and desirable and so can charge premium pricing.

Toyota has managed to position Lexus as a premium brand but still not at the same level as the European marques.
Nonetheless Lexus is seen by most as a premium brand in a different league than a Toyota and premium pricing is a result.

The case for today's Honda is less clear.
The Acura line in North America doesn't seem to have separated itself from Honda as, say, Porsche has from Volkswagen.
I think the original NSX was the first attempt by Honda to reposition itself as a premium car manufacturer.
While the car was/is superb the necessary continued development of the NSX didn't happen and the car lost it's market position.
Honda seemed to lose it's way during this period.

Today it seems Honda is back to it's place in the late 80's and poised to reissue a new NSX, re-enter F1 as an engine supplier and start down the road of repositioning itself as a producer of performance type cars.
I don't think the world markets are ready for a $150K plus Honda yet.
I think some years must pass with the NSX successfully launched and selling, the F1 engine program running well, and other higher performance models coming out following the NSX, before there is prestige attached to a Honda product.
If the company repositioning is successful then premium pricing can be achieved over time.

I am hoping the Honda board/executive realizes the magnitude of the task at hand and the role of the NSX as the leading edge of the repositioning.
If it does I would expect the NSX will be priced to gain market share, create a great deal of publicity and start people talking about Honda/Acura.
For this reason I am hoping the initial NSX will offer exceptional value at the launch and early adopters will benefit from this strategy.
As time passes and if NSX sales volumes stabilize at reasonable levels, I would expect Honda to raise NSX prices to more closely reflect the cost and value of the car.

 

[myw]

this is bang-on on all points. agreed completely.

I think that to sell a car for over $150K, it is much easier if the marque has a certain history and panache.
Certainly Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche etc. all have that cachet.
When you consider the owners of these marques you find VW, Fiat and others none of whom are known for making special cars.
However the owners of the marques have carefully kept the history and traditions of these marques intact and desirable and so can charge premium pricing.

Toyota has managed to position Lexus as a premium brand but still not at the same level as the European marques.
Nonetheless Lexus is seen by most as a premium brand in a different league than a Toyota and premium pricing is a result.

The case for today's Honda is less clear.
The Acura line in North America doesn't seem to have separated itself from Honda as, say, Porsche has from Volkswagen.
I think the original NSX was the first attempt by Honda to reposition itself as a premium car manufacturer.
While the car was/is superb the necessary continued development of the NSX didn't happen and the car lost it's market position.
Honda seemed to lose it's way during this period.

Today it seems Honda is back to it's place in the late 80's and poised to reissue a new NSX, re-enter F1 as an engine supplier and start down the road of repositioning itself as a producer of performance type cars.
I don't think the world markets are ready for a $150K plus Honda yet.
I think some years must pass with the NSX successfully launched and selling, the F1 engine program running well, and other higher performance models coming out following the NSX, before there is prestige attached to a Honda product.
If the company repositioning is successful then premium pricing can be achieved over time.

I am hoping the Honda board/executive realizes the magnitude of the task at hand and the role of the NSX as the leading edge of the repositioning.
If it does I would expect the NSX will be priced to gain market share, create a great deal of publicity and start people talking about Honda/Acura.
For this reason I am hoping the initial NSX will offer exceptional value at the launch and early adopters will benefit from this strategy.
As time passes and if NSX sales volumes stabilize at reasonable levels, I would expect Honda to raise NSX prices to more closely reflect the cost and value of the car.

 

[liftnot]

+2. besides the hybrid/awd, the chassis is not carbon but alum....like ours.:frown: another V6? we have that 20+ yrs ago, twin turbo? Cody/SOS/AW/Shad..TADT! What else can they brag about?:redface: DI?:smile: TADT too. People went to Pebble Beach and saw in person saz WOW! Ok fine, but not for $150k....its a Honda.

 

[QUICKIE]

I think that to sell a car for over $150K, it is much easier if the marque has a certain history and panache.
Certainly Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Porsche etc. all have that cachet.
When you consider the owners of these marques you find VW, Fiat and others none of whom are known for making special cars.
However the owners of the marques have carefully kept the history and traditions of these marques intact and desirable and so can charge premium pricing.

JD, To an extent you are right.
But, people have been snookered, in a way, into the belief that those cars are contented with ultra-premium materials. For the most part, in my experience, they are not.
I think lots of people are taken in by the Veblenian Paradox: "People buy expensive goods not so much because they are superior, but because they are expensive".
As you stated, most of these automobile companies are just part of a large automobile combine. I found enough VW/Audi parts in my two Lamborghinis that I could have built myself a Jetta clone.:wink:
So many vehicle manufacturers have now caught up to those 'panache-masters' with regards to performance ....... This new NSX seems to have caught up to them in the style department also, IMO.

JMHO

 

[JD Cross]

JD, To an extent you are right.
But, people have been snookered, in a way, into the belief that those cars are contented with ultra-premium materials. For the most part, in my experience, they are not.
I think lots of people are taken in by the Veblenian Paradox: "People buy expensive goods not so much because they are superior, but because they are expensive".
As you stated, most of these automobile companies are just part of a large automobile combine. I found enough VW/Audi parts in my two Lamborghinis that I could have built myself a Jetta clone.:wink:
So many vehicle manufacturers have now caught up to those 'panache-masters' with regards to performance ....... This new NSX seems to have caught up to them in the style department also, IMO.

JMHO

My comments are perhaps directed more at the price attainable by a marque rather than the value offered or supplied by that marque.
Your point is about value offered for a price and is another discussion altogether.

For example the original NSX offered exceptional value compared to say a 348.
However the 348 was able to command a much higher price despite offering lower value which is my point about a marque's cachet.

 

[QUICKIE]

My comments are perhaps directed more at the price attainable by a marque rather than the value offered or supplied by that marque.
Your point is about value offered for a price and is another discussion altogether.

For example the original NSX offered exceptional value compared to say a 348.
However the 348 was able to command a much higher price despite offering lower value which is my point about a marque's cachet.

You can lead a horse (customer) to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

[VancouverBCnsx]

I would be astonished if Honda really attempts to market the new NSX at a price point in the vicinity of $200,000. The targeted consumers would then likely be almost exclusively the top tier of the 1% socio-economic class. This to me seems to be really inconsistent with the message/goals that the design team has expressed to date. The sales and production numbers would have to be severly ratched back as the car would be out of reach for most of its current followers and the general puiblic. Honda would then be building a car to demonstrate its technological prowess somewhat analogous to the Lexus LFA with the realization that very few would get the opportunity to actually experience it.
The good news from a personal perspective is that my concern of not being allocated a vehicle considering my placement on the wait list would be extinguished. However the vehicle would have to be truly amazing to get me to consider spending that kind of dough. I am not sure how I would overcome my trepidation about taking an enormous bath on a future resale.

 

[Osiris_x11]

We all may be (astonishingly) surprised by the performance/handling and feel/experience of this forthcoming NSX Concept/v2, namely due to the electric-assist coupled to the twin-turbo powerplant - due to how the McLaren P1 is doing with such a setup.

I agree, the purported ~$150k+ price-point is a lot. But, if it's performing at par (and more efficiently/reliably) than ~$300k+ platforms, it'll be sure be something else. The electric-assist will null any perceivable turbo-lag & fill-out the power-delivery curve optimally. And the electric-assist fill further enhance handling with the SH-AWD, without the seeming need for active-aero & brake-steer.

If it's aesthetically appealing, it'll be an awesome ride. I believe the performance potential of it will be un-chartered territory, much like how the P1 is just rocking everyone's world who's had a go with it.

 

[JD Cross]

We all may be (astonishingly) surprised by the performance/handling and feel/experience of this forthcoming NSX Concept/v2, namely due to the electric-assist coupled to the twin-turbo powerplant - due to how the McLaren P1 is doing with such a setup.
I agree, the purported ~$150k+ price-point is a lot. But, if it's performing at par (and more efficiently/reliably) than ~$300k+ platforms, it'll be sure be something else. The electric-assist will null any perceivable turbo-lag & fill-out the power-delivery curve optimally. And the electric-assist fill further enhance handling with the SH-AWD, without the seeming need for active-aero & brake-steer.
If it's aesthetically appealing, it'll be an awesome ride. I believe the performance potential of it will be un-chartered territory, much like how the P1 is just rocking everyone's world who's had a go with it.

I don't think anyone is questioning the concept or all the features and benefits.
The question is do you have one on order and will you pay over $150K for it

 

[docjohn]

as quickie(the new guy):wink: was alluding to ...the truly wealthy are less concerned with price and more about having the latest/greatest "stuff" .The majority of folks who can afford a 150-200k car are not on prime discussing the corporate cost benefits /profit margins for such a car.For exclusive low volume luxury items there are plenty of potential buyers.If it can perform like the ultra exotics at half the price,and look every bit as exotic ,then it will just need to make sure to keep the volumes subdued .....but I really don't think it will be 200k.....The chief engineer on the program kinda harped on the plan to keep it affordable by using less exotic(cheaper) material but in a unique way.

 

[blue_myriddn]

the purported ~$150k+ price-point is a lot.

I wonder if we are simply underestimating what the market will bear. I for one was thinking that a price point in the GT-R & R8 ballpark ($100-120k) was much more sensible and think that stretching in to $150+ territory was a bad call, but I have had a bit of an eye opener by giving the Ferrari market a bit of a look. Here is a snapshot of Ferraris listed for sale last month that I turned in to a visual:

The $150ish mark would put the NSX2 around the price of a previous model Ferrari with performance close to this model's Ferrari. Why buy a used F430 when you get a new NSX2?

 

[jwmelvin]

I love your chart Dan.

 

[VancouverBCnsx]

As an original owner of a 91 NSX, part of the magic of owning this car aside from the exotic performance has been the less than 3% per year average depreciation expense. This is unlikely to reoccur with an NSX2 priced above $150,000. The Ferrari pricing chart seems to support this contention.

 

[blue_myriddn]

As an original owner of a 91 NSX, part of the magic of owning this car aside from the exotic performance has been the less than 3% per year average depreciation expense. This is unlikely to reoccur with an NSX2 priced above $150,000. The Ferrari pricing chart seems to support this contention.

Actually, Ferrari's haven't done all that bad either. In conjunction with that chart the discussion moved to deprecation as well and here are the numbers for some of the Ferraris taking in to account inflation using this tool: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

1997 355 berlinetta - $190,000 MSRP - $55,000 median - 71% depreciation
2002 360 Modena - $207,187 MSRP - $75,000 median - 64% depreciation
2003 360 Challenge - $245,617 MSRP - $160,000 median - 35% depreciation

True though, with your early year your numbers are more impressive, but it does require a little more time to really be sure. There is a good chance that the 355 will no longer depreciate in value as I and others tend to think they have hit the bottom of the curve. The 348 really can't be used as comparison as it isn't very well regarded.

1991 NSX - $103,046 MSRP - 66% depreciation

That assumes a few things (1) you paid about $80,000 for your car in 1991 (2) you could sell your car for $35,000 today. Both of those assumptions seemed valid to me, but feel free to correct me if I am inaccurate.

**correction, MSRP for the 1991 NSX was closer to $60-65k, my mistake. Numbers above have been updated accordingly.

I love your chart Dan.

Thanks, the value of photoshop Excel never makes charts quite the way I want them to anymore.

 

[Osiris_x11]

The question is do you have one on order and will you pay over $150K for it

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question, but for me- I would consider the ~$150k NSX-v2 if it offered an unique experience (apart from its presumably awesome performance/handling & reliability/dependability). I want swing-up doors (ala HSC, 12C, SLS, etc) and styling that doesn't need to grow on me (it's a hit with me from the get-go). I have yet to see one of the NSX-Concept versions in'person. I'm sure the form-factor and design is exceptional, but the overall styling doesn't resonate with me (in-general, it's a halo/reflection of current & recent Acura designs that I'm so-so with regards to). I would've done the HSC for this price-point, no doubt.

Yes, I've become that person! I want visceral feel, experience, "soul", styling, and all that good stuff!

Here is a snapshot of Ferraris listed for sale last month that I turned in to a visual...

I love your chart Dan.

2x!

The $150ish mark would put the NSX2 around the price of a previous model Ferrari with performance close to this model's Ferrari. Why buy a used F430 when you get a new NSX2?

Forget F430 (unless you really want one), a 12C Coupe will be at/near that...

 

[JD Cross]

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question, but for me- I would consider the ~$150k NSX-v2 if it offered an unique experience (apart from its presumably awesome performance/handling & reliability/dependability).Yes, I've become that person! I want visceral feel, experience, "soul", styling, and all that good stuff!

I think there are two categories of interest in the new NSX at the moment.
Those who are committed and those who are involved.

The committed group is sold enough on the Concept to put a deposit down.
I think this group is waiting on more details on the coming car and are today considering whether $150 K plus (USD) or $165K plus (CDN) is a number they are comfortable with.

The second and much larger group are looking at the plus/minus of design, appeal, performance etc and the price at this point is academic as they haven't put their money down.

The Honda price strategy will likely determine if the first group numbers stay intact and attract new buyers from the second group.
It would strike me the best strategy for Honda would be to price the NSX to create slightly more demand than supply, maintain a wait list, and if the sales pace matches or exceeds production then raise prices over time.

If they price it too aggressively at the launch and it doesn't sell then they'll have an embarrassing situation and discounting to move the car.

I guess we'll know how sophisticated Honda will be within a year.

 

[Hothonda]

With the exception of the first few years, the original NSX was a tough sell for Acura dealers all the way through to 2005. Lot's of special lease, finance & rebate deals were needed to try to move cars.
Even the 50 "Zanardi" models sat unsold until $5K rebates were offered on top of deep dealer discounts. I think the car was more of a PITA for dealers than anything. The NSX was a fabulous car that had no
market.

It will be interesting to see the direction Acura takes with the new NSX. The few hundred Prime members who may want the car does not make for a good business case on it's own....they'll need buyers
to defect from established brands to be successful.

Look at the Dodge dealers who are certified to sell the "all new" SRT Viper - those cars are growing hair on showroom floors with the exception of about 3 dealers nationwide who specialize in Vipers. Most SRT Dodge/Jeep dealers have 1 or 2 as a showpiece & could care less if they sell (+ know -0- about the car). They need to move minivans & Jeeps to Mom & Dad. Right now unsold new 2013 $135K Vipers are openly advertised for $99K. 2014's are $10-20K off.

Difficult market to break back into I'd say....

 

[nsxspn]

Here's something from RolledaNSX: [TABLE="width: 100%"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="class: td1, width: 175"][/TD]
[TD="class: td1, width: 100%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td1, width: 100%"]The new Nissan GT-R Nismo will start at $151,585 USD and come with 600hp,481 lb-ft.

Also that would explain the rumor price of the NSX from $150-180k.

There is the clues or the writing on the wall for the new NSX.

Honda would be stupid to release the new NSX with less than 600hp and 620hp would be better for the marketing point of view.They will all be around the same time on the spec sheet,the thing that will make a big difference is being a lot lighter or a lot more torque(the NSX should have more torque).

The new Lambo is 610ps,new Mclaren is 650ps,Ferrari 600ps with its replacement in a year!
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[docjohn]

ultimately we were told that the design goals were based on performance not absolute hp.The package of e-motors torque vectoring and the turbo gas motor would produce a satisfying drive....whatever that means.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Math updated above - I used the incorrect $80k number and have now changed it to the more accurate $60k.

 

[nsxspn]

Here's a link to the Honda GT Racing team- http://www.honda.co.jp/SuperGT/spcontents2014/nsx-concept-gt/machine-analysis/

- - - Updated - - -

• 
• 
• 

 

[nsxspn]

Am I seeing something that's not there... the dimensions of the GT version appears to have more back end than the concept; if that is the case i think the NSX2 will have that golf bag trunk area...

Yes, I'm lining up the ducks to have 2015-16 in my garage!

 

[JD Cross]

The GT version is a four cylinder I think
If it is mounted longitudinally the engine would be longer than the V6 and stretch the car length perhaps.
Does anyone know how the GT engine is mounted?

 

[sadlerau]

The SuperGT category is a silhouette class - the NSX you see in these photos has a bespoke set of dimensions, all the different cars must run a specific carbon fibre chassis, and are NOT based on their road cars.