Highest All Motor Numbers

[satan_srv]

Just curious if anyone has done an all-out all motor build on an NSX. Seems most people just do bolt-ons or opt for a Supracharger kit.

Anyone gone all motor and have some dynos showing good numbers?

I'm considering an NSX...I already have an AEM EMS from my other car to start with so it will be well tuned from the ground up.

Anyone using an AEM EMS on an allmotor nsx?

Thanks

Joel

 

[ncdogdoc]

See this thread

Probably the latest NSX in World Challenge and the new DP series car in ALMS with the NSX engine will be good examples of this. (Not to mention JGTC)

 

[satan_srv]

Very cool. But I mean real people with real street motors.

Anyone know the diameter on those ITBs? We've already made custom ITB setups using Suzuki GSXR TBs, it can be done for very cheap...this is on my engine builder's race car:

So if you can fab your own stuff it's not too bad. I just don't see any street cars going the hardcore all motor route..anyone?

 

[peiserg]

check with chris at SOS he's doing an all motor build for his track car....

 

[docjohn]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5011&highlight=bumblebee+puts+out

 

[satan_srv]

Not bad...looks like the ecu really limits the max power....it's dumping so much fuel from 5000-7500 it really kills the top end. Fuel management is a must for the NSX, at least a V-AFC

 

[docjohn]

My car is a 96 obd-2 and there is no plug and play solution for ecu afaik.Good luck with your project,I respect NA.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

I respect NA.

Me too.

 

[satan_srv]

My car is a 96 obd-2 and there is no plug and play solution for ecu afaik.Good luck with your project,I respect NA.

V-AFCs work on OBDII cars just fine...they are very easy to use. It intercepts and modies the map signal to add or subtract fuel. You could tune it yourself it's so simple. http://www.apexi-usa.com/electronics_vafc.asp

Actually the V-AFC II is out these days.

 

[sjs]

V-AFCs work on OBDII cars just fine...they are very easy to use. It intercepts and modies the map signal to add or subtract fuel. You could tune it yourself it's so simple. http://www.apexi-usa.com/electronics_vafc.asp

Actually the V-AFC II is out these days.

Several similar devices that seem to work fine on Hondas and such have proven problematic on the NSX ECU. Has anyone used the V-AFC on an NSX with total success?

 

[docjohn]

These devices sound good,and I realize that the stock ecu is not optimal for my mods,but I don't have the guts to be a Beta user nor do I have a local shop skilled in this type of aplication.If your shop can develope a plug and play device that is robust I'm sure there is a small market for it.

 

[satan_srv]

hmmm the NSX has a MAP sensor on the IM Plenum right? I could forsee issues with VTEC control (dual actuation) but I can't imagine modifying the map signal wouldn't work.

So no one has used a V-AFC/S-AFC on an NSX?

 

[ak]

I'm not sure but there might be issues with trying to control the V-tec switch point with V-AFC. I just remember reading something about it. As for S-AFC, I've heard of several good results. However, I wonder what happens with ECU adapting to it in a long run. I have S-AFCII hooked up and ready to go...just needs some dynoing. Let u know if I find anything.

BTW, I've heard that switching the v-tec point on NSX does not really help much...at least not on stock cams anyways.

 

[satan_srv]

I'm not sure but there might be issues with trying to control the V-tec switch point with V-AFC. I just remember reading something about it. As for S-AFC, I've heard of several good results. However, I wonder what happens with ECU adapting to it in a long run. I have S-AFCII hooked up and ready to go...just needs some dynoing. Let u know if I find anything.

BTW, I've heard that switching the v-tec point on NSX does not really help much...at least not on stock cams anyways.

S-AFC is fine for the NSX. The only differences a V-AFC offers is VTEC control and 2 sets of fuel modifcation maps (non-vtec and vtec).

But if we assume limited gains from changing the crossover on an NSX, which I would agree to based on dyno graphs I have seen, there's really no need to run 2 different maps etc.

An SAFC would be a great tuning tool for people with bolt-ons. You're just spoofing the MAP sensor and fooling the ecu into thinking there is less (or more) air coming in the manifold. You're playing against Honda's notion to tune their ecus excessively rich from the factory for safety. So if you tell the ecu with an S-AFC you have "less" air coming in (say 5% less), the ecu will inject somewhere around 5% less fuel, yet in reality the actual volume of air coming in remained unchanged. Same air, less fuel = higher a/f ratio and more power, to a certain extent anyway.

As for long term ecu adaptation of S-AFC settings we haven't seen a whole lot of impact. Most people only tune the S-AFC for Wide Open Throttle, open loop mode. Using OBDII datalogging tools it's been shown that in open loop most of the data for fuel trims ignored, so settings will always be applied. OBDII adjustments for closed loop mode will be done within 10-15 minutes of resetting the ecu, so pulling the fuse to rest your ecu is kind of a pointless procedure.

S-AFCs are pretty easy to tune/use and usually only requires an hour on th dyno with a wideband 02 sensor to get some good results. Looking at DocJohn's dyno there's a lot of gains to be had. the VTEC engagement area around 6000-7500 could really use some cleaning up. For example on my last motor I used an AFC to gain 10whp and 8lbft of torque peak and a ton of midrange. And that was on a 2.3

Doc John you should get an S-AFC I or II and head up here to Toronto and let me see how much more power I can make

 

[docjohn]

Ok I'll be right up ! You should have a chat about all this stuff with sjs and some of the other techies over at the technical forum.Also give Chris at sos a buz he has probably needed to tackle this issue with his na tune kit.

 

[satan_srv]

what technical forum?

Anyways Chris is using an AEM Standalone so it offers full adjustability of everything. I have one too, I'm just giving some help for those that want to keep their stock ecus and just not run so damn rich

S-AFC is pretty cheap these days, probably $200 or so

 

[docjohn]

My mistake I forgot that this thread is already in the Tech forum!I don't mind running arround rich,beats poor.Oh well maybe a side benefit is I spew flames on decel I'll have to ask at next track event from those following me.

 

[KulSecHskY]

Very cool. But I mean real people with real street motors.

Anyone know the diameter on those ITBs? We've already made custom ITB setups using Suzuki GSXR TBs, it can be done for very cheap...this is on my engine builder's race car:

So if you can fab your own stuff it's not too bad. I just don't see any street cars going the hardcore all motor route..anyone?

well im sure you can understand why. i don't know if i'd want open velocity stacks on my daily driven car. i doubt it'll last very long before a rebuild is required. plus all motor = all your money haha

all motor is very very badass though. goodluck with your all motor project.

 

[sjs]

The question is not whether the V-AFC and similar products (such as Link and Split Second) work in general, but whether anyone here has a fully successful install on an NSX. As several people have found, things that work on Civics and other Honda products may not agree with the NSX ECU. The BBSC uses a special version of the SS box and that required a ton of R&D and suffered serious teething issues WAY beyond what the average individual owner would ever wish to tackle, or could for that matter. Someone else tried for months to make a Greddy e-mange work, and despite much assistance from the manufacturer finally gave up. I had a similar experience a few years ago with a Link product and the nice people at Link were baffled. Last weekend I was helping a friend tune his 944 turbo with the current Link that also works by lying to the ECU and I wasn't too impressed. I showed him my AEM software and he nearly wet his pants. (BTW, he is one of the brightest guys I know and not easily impressed)

In other words, just because some tricky gadget works great on one car doesn't mean I want to be first in line to use it on my very expensive NSX engine.

 

[satan_srv]

Well for an average user an EMS is complete overkill. An Apex'i S-AFC/V-AFC is a tricky gadget while an AEM EMS is not? Have you even used one? Did you tune your AEM EMS yourself? (or do you just show people the software j/k)

An S-AFC is a MAP signal modifier plain and simple. So unless the NSX has no map sensor and/or different wiring I don't see the problem.

And if you look above ak has an S-AFCII installed already.

 

[satan_srv]

well im sure you can understand why. i don't know if i'd want open velocity stacks on my daily driven car. i doubt it'll last very long before a rebuild is required. plus all motor = all your money haha

all motor is very very badass though. goodluck with your all motor project.

I wouldn't either...that's why we make aluminum or carbon fibre airboxes for them.

All motor isn't that expensive if you do a lot of your own work.

BTW where is the SoS stuff? It was announced back in June wasn't it?

 

[Bryan]

Well for an average user an EMS is complete overkill. An Apex'i S-AFC/V-AFC is a tricky gadget while an AEM EMS is not? Have you even used one? Did you tune your AEM EMS yourself? (or do you just show people the software j/k)

An S-AFC is a MAP signal modifier plain and simple. So unless the NSX has no map sensor and/or different wiring I don't see the problem.

And if you look above ak has an S-AFCII installed already.

Joel,

I'm no expert, but two or three years worth of posts on this forum seem to indicate that simply tweaking the MAP signal to manage fuel doesn't work if you get very far from a stock engine. The best theory I've heard is that the NSX ECU aggressively adjusts timing in addition to fuel in response to the MAP signal and the timing changes have some unintended side effects. It's also been theorized that the ECU learns based on comparing measured MAP to expected MAP and tweaks the fuel and timing curves even when in open-loop operation.

There are many people who would love to see a working, reliable piggyback system that supports fine tuning the fuel curve. A lot of people have tried with varying degrees of success. I haven't seen anything that looks bulletproof enough to put on my car, but then I'm pretty conservative.

I'd love to see a clean ITB set up. That might be enough bling bling to take the engine cover off my T.

bryan

 

[satan_srv]

Joel,

I'm no expert, but two or three years worth of posts on this forum seem to indicate that simply tweaking the MAP signal to manage fuel doesn't work if you get very far from a stock engine. The best theory I've heard is that the NSX ECU aggressively adjusts timing in addition to fuel in response to the MAP signal and the timing changes have some unintended side effects. It's also been theorized that the ECU learns based on comparing measured MAP to expected MAP and tweaks the fuel and timing curves even when in open-loop operation.

There are many people who would love to see a working, reliable piggyback system that supports fine tuning the fuel curve. A lot of people have tried with varying degrees of success. I haven't seen anything that looks bulletproof enough to put on my car, but then I'm pretty conservative.

I'd love to see a clean ITB set up. That might be enough bling bling to take the engine cover off my T.

bryan

Yeah based on my limited knowledge of nsx ecus, I'd have to get some practical testing in on it to confirm.

 

[sjs]

Well for an average user an EMS is complete overkill. An Apex'i S-AFC/V-AFC is a tricky gadget while an AEM EMS is not? Have you even used one? Did you tune your AEM EMS yourself? (or do you just show people the software j/k)

An S-AFC is a MAP signal modifier plain and simple. So unless the NSX has no map sensor and/or different wiring I don't see the problem.

And if you look above ak has an S-AFCII installed already.

Nothing is overkill if the alternative is a half-assed solution that either proves to be a royal PIA or causes other damage. No I'm not saying all, or even most, signal modifiers are bad. I have been careful to make a point of asking for success stories and not made any claims that it can't be done. I have followed ak's posts for months now and if you read more closely you will see that it is only installed, not tuned much less thoroughly tested. That hardly qualifies as a success story, yet. But you seem hell bent on proving me wrong despite that I have made no claims that can be argued.

Yes, I have done all my own tuning of the AEM and if although it can be extremely complex because it is amazingly feature rich, if all you wanted to do was the equivalent of what those signal modifiers offer then it is WAY simpler and will give better results.

 

[satan_srv]

Nothing is overkill if the alternative is a half-assed solution that either proves to be a royal PIA or causes other damage. No I'm not saying all, or even most, signal modifiers are bad. I have been careful to make a point of asking for success stories and not made any claims that it can't be done. I have followed ak's posts for months now and if you read more closely you will see that it is only installed, not tuned much less thoroughly tested. That hardly qualifies as a success story, yet. But you seem hell bent on proving me wrong despite that I have made no claims that can be argued.

Yes, I have done all my own tuning of the AEM and if although it can be extremely complex because it is amazingly feature rich, if all you wanted to do was the equivalent of what those signal modifiers offer then it is WAY simpler and will give better results.

I'm not hell bent on anything, this is a discussion. For one thing I use the AEM EMS myself, so I'm not trying to detract from the EMS. I see that ak has only installed it and not tuned it, so I am interested to see any results either way. People say there is difficulty yet I see no results, I say it should work fine and there is no results. Less talking, more dyno time I say.

If you have the $ AEM EMS and a Wideband O2 w/ gauge is where it's at. But some people don't want to replace their stock ecus completely.

Just trying to find it out if it doesn't work, why?