Highest All Motor Numbers

[KGP]

Poor choice of words, sorry. Just wondering where a builder would determine it necessary to use the Golden Eagle approach, be it bore, compression, whatever. Even then, there would never be "black and white," as we could have as many opinions as we have builders.

I wonder how much weight that adds.

Not as much as the dif between you and I.

 

[sjs]

If you want to try something really fun, how about drilling through the side of the block, and inserting your own struts in the form of aluminum threaded studs.....

Read This Article With Pictures.....

OMG! I contemplated the tab approach (as opposed to a full deck) a long time ago, but I was never creative (or demented) enough to come up with that!

 

[NA1 #2853]

i have "heard" of alot of cars on the street with them...... but hearing and seeing are 2 different things.....

i have sent 4 customers blocks down there;

(Two) 2.21L B16A - All Motor
(One) 2.3L GSR - All Motor
(One) 1.8L GSR - Turbo

Not track motors, these are daily driven, night racing, beating up motors.

Unfortuantely they havent logged a ton of miles yet, since i am a relatively new distribtor for G.E.'s stuff.

But so far, great results.... no overheating problems....

I'm waiting for them to tool up, and get ready for some V motors.... Like our stuff.

-Ray

 

[NA1 #2853]

OMG! I contemplated the tab approach (as opposed to a full deck) a long time ago, but I was never creative (or demented) enough to come up with that!

Like that huh..... just did a GSR motor thursday with the threaded studs...... it is a darton econo-sleeved (stock replacement type sleeve, out of stronger material) block, that i wanted a little extra insurance on.

I was just going to use aluminum threaded stock bar......But i ordered these from Endyn, as they have them made out of the same aluminum alloy mix as the block is for even thermal expansion.

-Ray

 

[ChrisK]

There is a guy over on acura-legend.com that just finshed a block/head swap, used an RL block and put on the legend DOHC head....made some intersting numbers..you should check it out. He's tuning it fully soon. His baseline made more torque than HP!

.

You are mistaken. I have been a long time Legend owner and have been a moderator at that legend forums that you mentioned. Christian (DV8) is the guy you are talking about. Yes, he has done a hybrid RL/Legend using the 3.5 buttom end from the RL and at the Legend TYPE II top end but it is NOT a DOHC as the NSX is the ONLY V6 that has a DOHC engine. Christian had done some amazing things with the C32A Legend engine, but for years members have been trying to figure out a way yo get the NSX DOHC heads on the Legend block but most of us have come to the conclusion it is just not feasable in terms of cost. One small problem is the heads are larger and doesn't fit under the stock Legend hood. Also since the Legend is SOHC and NON VTEC those issues would need to be worked out independently. Christian was a poinieer with the Legend engine, but keep in mind just because he accomplished a few different hybrid applications doesn't mean it is better. For example, his first hybrid was with the Legend TYPE I 200HP engine and the Legend TYPE II 230 HP top end. His results were good, but still only a few HP more than a standard TYPE I and much less than a standard TYPE II. His new 3.5 hybrid is showing much more potential, but tuning will still be an issue. AEM does not make a EMS unit for the Legend and they told is they never will.

 

[docjohn]

Hey Andy,I hope you can make it to the glen,I'd love to feel what "easy" HP is all about.I realize that FI is the way to go for gains that most would consider practical.I like na because it is the more exquisit more technilogical and delicate,way to go.Look at Formula 1 as the epitome of technology and racing as we know it they have gone the na route after years of escalating hp from turbos.Too boring for the engineers,I mean look at the can am cars and the silly 1100 hp P cars.Of course making hand grenades as street motors is also silly,so who knows,but I'm happy with my loud rude bee.As you are with your powerful torquey car.

 

[docjohn]

Oh btw Satan,I know that you are trying in your own mind to demystify the nsx engine ,and your right it is just an engine(that has a starter motor) and it isn't made with fairy dust ect.But if there was a decent robust way of pluging in a program or any other way of electronicly gaining hp we'd all have it.The folks with early cars have had some small gains with various chips,but not for 95 and later cars.

 

[sjs]

...There is a guy over on acura-legend.com that just finshed a block/head swap, used an RL block and put on the legend DOHC head....made some intersting numbers..you should check it out. He's tuning it fully soon. His baseline made more torque than HP!...

I missed that last part previously. More torque than HP from a high-reving engine, and NA at that? Hardly something to brag about. Either he's limiting redline to little more than 5k or the engine can't breath properly above that. Either way I would call it an under-achiever, but I suspect someone just made that up to impress people, unaware that it implies the opposite of what they intended.

 

[satan_srv]

I missed that last part previously. More torque than HP from a high-reving engine, and NA at that? Hardly something to brag about. Either he's limiting redline to little more than 5k or the engine can't breath properly above that. Either way I would call it an under-achiever, but I suspect someone just made that up to impress people, unaware that it implies the opposite of what they intended.

I'm not saying it's something to brag about, I just said it was 'interesting'.

My bad on the SOHC thing, I really didn't look at it very closely.

 

[satan_srv]

On the topic of sleeves...why do you guys think that an Open deck design has better cooling properties? A closed beck has more surface area to transmit heat if you think about it, because the open deck has nothing at that point. Either way I'd say there isn't much of an advantage of either type unless we are talking about boosting/nitrous...then you want some stability.

From that F-X pic I was a little concerned about the room in the water jacket, it does look really small, and I wonder how well it will cool at longer periods of high rpms. I'm assuming there's no aftermarket water pump solution, other than the GE electric water pump, which is not PnP.

Here is a pic of my last open deck sleeved NA engine

It defintely has more space than that F-X and the only time I had cooling issues was when my head gasket started to go

I previously had a darton closed-deck sleeved block, they did the job really well too.

So can we list all the companies that make sleeves for the NSX? And whether they do the machining work or you just buy them and get it done locally?

1. AEBS (send off)
2. GE (send off)
3. F-X (send off)
4. Darton? (buy, do local)

Please correct or add to the list, thanks. Add pricing if you have any.

 

[satan_srv]

Thanks. Very interesting stuff. Do you know how long they have been using that exact process and if there are any cars with lots of miles already? I wonder how much weight that adds.

GE has been doing that for several years now and a lot of hondas have them...they sponsor honda-tech and last time I check they were sleeving 4 cylinders for about $850 plus shipping. They are a very popular sleeve. Especially for those that don't have a machine shop nearby.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Flattering I'm sure, but otherwise meaningless without more info.

For more info, see my profile for mods to my NSX. Other than what is listed herein, the only thing different was that I was running Advans that weekend.

Many professional race car drivers have probably never driven a modified NSX on the track.

This driver has - he owns a street NSX (at one time his was FI'ed, like mine) and is track car is an NSX.

 

[NA1 #2853]

On the topic of sleeves...why do you guys think that an Open deck design has better cooling properties? A closed beck has more surface area to transmit heat if you think about it, because the open deck has nothing at that point.

In the upper portion of the sleeve, where the combustion happens is where most of the heat is generated......

On a closed desk system, you are transmitting the heat through the speeve, into the aluminum on the block.....Then the block will transfer the heat to the water. Yes i know there is water below the "T" portion of the sleeve, but the majority of the heat is concentrated in the top of the sleeve.

On a open deck sleeve (or GE's sleeves), it transmits the heat directly to the water at the top of the sleeve. This direct transfer/shorter path for the heat will keep things cooler.

This will increase your detonation threashold.

-Ray

 

[satan_srv]

fair enough

 

[Yellow Rose]

3. I wasn't going to use the same map there smart guy. And the NSX is not that unique. It's legend motor with a VTEC head and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary

Oh yee whom has no knowledge......this is so far from the truth.

Have you compared the electronics of the ECUs of the Legend and the NSX?

As far as your response to #1, #2 and #4, you have a PM. I won't embarrass you in public. An remember, what is said in private stays in private.

 

[satan_srv]

3. I wasn't going to use the same map there smart guy. And the NSX is not that unique. It's legend motor with a VTEC head and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary

Oh yee whom has no knowledge......this is so far from the truth.

Have you compared the electronics of the ECUs of the Legend and the NSX?

As far as your response to #1, #2 and #4, you have a PM. I won't embarrass you in public. An remember, what is said in private stays in private.

We're quite past this by now, and I was never referring to electronics when I related the legend and nsx motors. I'm so embarrassed...

Let's move on.

 

[sjs]

...For more info, see my profile for mods to my NSX. Other than what is listed herein, the only thing different was that I was running Advans that weekend.

I meant the driver, not your car, but you answered that as well. I still think it sounds better until you think about it for awhile, then I just figure he's never driven a decent turbo NSX.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

The AEM EMS uses an internal main board and daughter card. The daughter card is specific for the application - so they are unique on the inside.

Cheers,
-- Chris

we'll see what happens...unless there is something hardware specific like you mentioned..all other AEM systems are the same box...it's just the wiring externally that's different. The only thing I saw was a second harness for the dual vtec solenoid actuation...so if that's harwarde then sure...but internally it 'should' only be software issues.

I don't care to argue the subject with people though. I'll just do what I do, and I'll show you some results when I have them.

 

[sjs]

...From that F-X pic I was a little concerned about the room in the water jacket, it does look really small, and I wonder how well it will cool at longer periods of high rpms.

The picture is a little misleading. The sleeve is not that thick all they way down. It T's out at the top, not to close the deck but to add strength at the top, yet leave room for at least some coolant around that critical area. So most of the cylinder is still surrounded by significantly more coolant than the picture suggests. I have no idea how that really works out compared to other designs, but I think that's the F-X approach to large bore NA builds.