Highest All Motor Numbers

[Andrie Hartanto]

If I recall correctly Andie Lin (Cobalt) tried to use S-AFC or C-AFC to no success. Contact him to get more info.

 

[NA1 #2853]

I've tried the AFC's before, altough they will work.... i have found that the computer will quickly "undo" what you have done.... and you can keep on fighting the ECU, until the "Long Term" trims have maxed out. Then it will be a little more predictable after that, but it still does some weird sh*t every once in a while.

I then decided to try the Greddy eManage, since i have installed over 40+ units on various all-motor and turbocharged hondas, and have had AWESOME repeatable results.... Stable A/F ratios, and excelent predictability...... Well, not on the NSX. The ignition control doesnt work, tried a few different custom circuits to make it work.... Nope. tried a HKS NSX specific ignition adapter for the FCON, nope. A/F ratios drifted after 3 - 4 days.

I ended up, only using the Emanage for the Additional injector controller, and MAP sensor voltage clamp, and data logging of the injector duty cycle.

But the turbo is coming off, and i'm going to take the larger displacement All-Motor route. I am going to sell off all the turbo bits, But i am still keeping the AEM EMS to control the new all motor setup.

All in all i spent: AFC ($300-ish), eManage ($350, injector harness $35, ignition harness $35, MAP Sensor $120, MAP Harness $20, eManage Software+Cable $120), $100 spent on 3 different ignition adapters, $120 on NSX harness adaptor so i didnt have to cut the factory wires.........

Figure that you can buy a AEM EMS for 1300 - 1400, i should of just bought it in the first place..... I would of almost spent the same amount, with alot less headache.

 

[Eddy]

Perhaps one of the reason that aftermarket AFC doesn't work well on the NSX is due to the 2 speed fuel pump control. From my experience installing my Motec, the fuel pump speed changes the fuel pressure and therefore the target air/fuel ratio by a fairly significant amount.

If the AFC is not taking that into account, the stock ECU can switch into a totally different fuel map when the fuel pump is switched and the AFC would be correcting the signals for the wrong reason and your air/fuel ratio would be off from when you calibrate it.

Eddy

 

[sjs]

Perhaps one of the reason that aftermarket AFC doesn't work well on the NSX is due to the 2 speed fuel pump control...

The fuel pump resistor is a potential factor as we have often discussed, but in theory it would only come into play in terms of preventing adequate supply when left in the circuit too long, not cause things to go rich when it switches out. The fuel pressure regulator should prevent that by maintaining constant pressure so long as they are adequate to meet demand. What that suggests to me is that if the switching does in fact cause your car to go rich, then it may be switching too late and the pressure had fallen below the regulator setting sometime prior to the switch. That may occur only under certain combinations of load and throttle position and therefore not easily proven with a quick pressure check.

Fortunately it is extremely simple to bypass the resistor so that the pump runs at full system voltage all the time. That makes it a bit more audible under cruise conditions and would likely reduce service life, but those may be acceptable compromises for a more predictable fuel delivery system.

The above is based on a stock fuel pump. If you have installed a higher volume and/or pressure pump then there is also the possibility of overwhelming the return orifice in the stock regulator which my in fact allow higher pressure to the injectors and even a pulsing or surge effect. The solution then is a regulator with a larger return. The AEM version bolts in place of the stock unit and besides being adjustable it comes with several return orifice sizes.

 

[satan_srv]

I've tried the AFC's before, altough they will work.... i have found that the computer will quickly "undo" what you have done.... and you can keep on fighting the ECU, until the "Long Term" trims have maxed out. Then it will be a little more predictable after that, but it still does some weird sh*t every once in a while.

How did you find this changing? ON the dyno? OBDII datalogger?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Seems most people just do bolt-ons or opt for a Supracharger kit.

I will back-hand the first NSXer that opts for a supracharger. Now, a supercharger I can understand.

Anyone gone all motor.....

You mean engine? A motor is an electrical machine that operates off of voltage via wires. What powers the NSX is an engine.

I already have an AEM EMS from my other car to start with so it will be well tuned from the ground up.

No it will not. The AEM application for the NSX is so unique, that the rules of engagement for other cars (even Hondas) are tossed out the window.

Anyone using an AEM EMS on an allmotor nsx?

Assuming that I go along with your terminology of "motor" vs "engine", what do you mean by "allmotor" (allengine)?

The AEM has been used on NSX engines from naturally aspirated to forced induction, with stock internals and reinforced internals.

 

[Yellow Rose]

There are many people who would love to see a working, reliable piggyback system that supports fine tuning the fuel curve. A lot of people have tried with varying degrees of success. I haven't seen anything that looks bulletproof enough to put on my car, but then I'm pretty conservative.

Come see me. My piggy-back SS box is as reliable as the day is long.

At a track event a couple of weeks ago, a professional race car driver took my car out and he said my NSX was the fasted street-driven NSX that he has ever driven on the track and with the right tires, in my class of driving events, few other cars would touch it.

Of course, he drives 10/10's and I do not. The point is, that piggy-backs can be made to manage air-fuel ratio very effectively.

 

[Yellow Rose]

I respect NA.

I do too......except when you have been to the top of the mountain, it is difficult to come back down.

Jon - I intend to make NSXPO this year. I'll toss you my keys and you tell me if NA is "acceptable"? I have BBK, suspension, track rubber.....so with the exception of FI vs NA, our cars are somewhat similar.

Caveat - I have been invited to participate in a support role with a team in a pro race event that I think conflicts with the dates of the NSXPO event.

 

[sjs]

...Come see me. My piggy-back SS box is as reliable as the day is long.

Still a bit early to say that, but then again "a day" isn't considered very long for most engines.

At a track event a couple of weeks ago, a professional race car driver took my car out and he said my NSX was the fasted street-driven NSX that he has ever driven on the track.

Flattering I'm sure, but otherwise meaningless without more info. Many professional race car drivers have probably never driven a modified NSX on the track.

The point is, that piggy-backs can be made to manage air-fuel ratio very effectively.

Add the word “some” and place an emphasis on "can be made and we agree, as the SS box fiasco has so poignantly and expensively proven. Despite direct involvement from the manufacturer to produce an NSX specific version of something they already made, that proved a long and perilous journey. So I say again that the real point here is that you should not listen to anyone telling you how one or another device will work just fine unless they have one installed, properly tuned, and running for an extended period of time in an NSX of similar vintage. I'll also repeat that some of the aforementioned piggybacks may indeed be workable, but since the NSX version of the SS box is not available except with the BBSC, we have yet to be told of a documented success story.

 

[satan_srv]

Seems most people just do bolt-ons or opt for a Supracharger kit.

I will back-hand the first NSXer that opts for a supracharger. Now, a supercharger I can understand.

Anyone gone all motor.....

You mean engine? A motor is an electrical machine that operates off of voltage via wires. What powers the NSX is an engine.

I already have an AEM EMS from my other car to start with so it will be well tuned from the ground up.

No it will not. The AEM application for the NSX is so unique, that the rules of engagement for other cars (even Hondas) are tossed out the window.

Anyone using an AEM EMS on an allmotor nsx?

Assuming that I go along with your terminology of "motor" vs "engine", what do you mean by "allmotor" (allengine)?

The AEM has been used on NSX engines from naturally aspirated to forced induction, with stock internals and reinforced internals.

1. typo
2. you're an ass
3. I wasn't going to use the same map there smart guy. And the nsx is not that unique. It's legend motor with a VTEC head and and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary
4. all motor means NA (as opposed to FI), perhaps you are too busy being self-righteous to be up on current slang

Thanks for the contribution.

 

[ncdogdoc]

.............
And the nsx is not that unique. It's legend motor with a VTEC head and and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary

Thanks for the contribution.

I think you may have just dug the rest of your grave with that comment on this board, as we all know how very untrue this is.

I wish you very well with your project. I will be going that way with my track car, and FI for the street car. But be forewarned, the NSX comes with a certain brand of Honda magic that very few have been able to reproduce. Most have given up and gone to straight stand alones to keep their sanity.

 

[sjs]

...
3. I wasn't going to use the same map there smart guy...

I believe that Andy's point was the fact that, as you should know, the AEM is specific for a given application. To use yours on the NSX would require, at a minimum, an adapter harness or replacement of the connectors. The latter would be impractical at best and the former somewhat defeats one of the advantages of the AEM. It seems far more logical to recoup what you can from your AEM by selling it then purchasing the correct one.

However, even the guys at AEM found that the NSX was a challenge unlike any other car and problems with getting it right delayed initial release by months. Those problems reportedly included hardware issues not just software. Therefore, it would not surprise me if a mere adapter harness and NSX base configuration alone will not suffice. I’m doubtful that all of the inputs/outputs can even be reassigned via software to move from one car to another. In other words, I think you are out of luck, but by all means, give it a try.

 

[satan_srv]

I think you may have just dug the rest of your grave with that comment on this board, as we all know how very untrue this is.

What is untrue about my statement? The C30A is based on the C series engines, which were in the late 80's to early 90
s legends. the C25A and the C27A are good examples of that, and of course the later C32A1 and C35A1 (RL). Honda's VTEC system had already been out and implemented in other engines when the NSX engine was developed. FRM sleeve techology was in the 1990 H22a prelude 6 years before it was used in the NSX to get 3.2L

Yes it's the only DOHC VTEC V6 out there but the C30A1 is hardly the engine it could have been. I mean 10.2:1 compression? That's so weak even JDM preludes were running 10.6:1 in 1990 and the ITR when it came out was 10.8:1, and now the S2000 runs 11.1:1. Fact is the chassis is excellent but the engine has a ton of untapped potential. And honda really had no incentive to upgrade the engine either. At the rate of sales there's really no push for new R&D.

I could go on about the things that weren't done for that motor that I would have preferred but I'm sure the NSX was targeted/marketed for me anyway. I'm just not going to pretend that there's some sort of magic to making it work. At the end of the day it's still just an engine and it runs just like the rest. You just have to find where to make the power.

That's why I'm doing this project...just to prove how much power the NSX didn't make, and should have.

 

[satan_srv]

I believe that Andy's point was the fact that, as you should know, the AEM is specific for a given application. To use yours on the NSX would require, at a minimum, an adapter harness or replacement of the connectors. The latter would be impractical at best and the former somewhat defeats one of the advantages of the AEM. It seems far more logical to recoup what you can from your AEM by selling it then purchasing the correct one.

However, even the guys at AEM found that the NSX was a challenge unlike any other car and problems with getting it right delayed initial release by months. Those problems reportedly included hardware issues not just software. Therefore, it would not surprise me if a mere adapter harness and NSX base configuration alone will not suffice. I’m doubtful that all of the inputs/outputs can even be reassigned via software to move from one car to another. In other words, I think you are out of luck, but by all means, give it a try.

we'll see what happens...unless there is something hardware specific like you mentioned..all other AEM systems are the same box...it's just the wiring externally that's different. The only thing I saw was a second harness for the dual vtec solenoid actuation...so if that's harwarde then sure...but internally it 'should' only be software issues.

I don't care to argue the subject with people though. I'll just do what I do, and I'll show you some results when I have them.

 

[NA1 #2853]

i'm not out to stir up trouble..... but dig a little deeper....

you will find that they are very similar, but not interchangable.

there are more differences with the C32A, and C35A, than with the C27,C25.

order pairs of rod/crank/thrust bearings for each motor..... and head gaskets. you will see what i'm talking about when compared to the NSX motor.
then compare oil pumps, and main seals.

yes, the designs, and layout are nearly identical. there are enough differences to keep them from being the same..... and to classify the nsx engine as unique. And by unique i mean, the parts being only interchangeable with itself.

i firmly believe that the C30A has ALOT more potential, but people are just too afraid to try.

I also belive the the legend motors have alot more potential.....just no one tries.

And the J-series motors.....(MDX, CL, TL, new accord) Good Lord that is a awesome setup, wait until i finish my roommates MDX/TL-TypeS Hybrid in his '03 Accord.

 

[sjs]

You are correct that in terms of hardware it is nothing revolutionary. But to say that "It's legend motor with a VTEC head and other upgrades" is like saying that the "stock block" CART engines were just Chevy's and Buicks with heads and other upgrades. Double overhead cam VTEC, Titanium rods, VVIS, 8k redline and 90 BHP/liter were anything but commonplace in 1990. As for the 10.2:1 compression, again that was 1990 when they worried about high octane fuel availability in the future, and electronic controls were not what they are today. And of course very high on their list of goals was keeping the reliability of a Honda. So can you get more power today? Sure, but at a price they weren't willing to pay.

Overall, the NSX engine is the epitome of an automotive wet dream for someone who's been around awhile and spent years trying to get similar power from lesser hardware. And at nearly 14 years since it was introduced it is still pretty close to the top of the heap. Id say that’s an accomplishment.

 

[satan_srv]

i'm not out to stir up trouble..... but dig a little deeper....

you will find that they are very similar, but not interchangable.

there are more differences with the C32A, and C35A, than with the C27,C25.

order pairs of rod/crank/thrust bearings for each motor..... and head gaskets. you will see what i'm talking about when compared to the NSX motor.
then compare oil pumps, and main seals.

yes, the designs, and layout are nearly identical. there are enough differences to keep them from being the same..... and to classify the nsx engine as unique. And by unique i mean, the parts being only interchangeable with itself.

i firmly believe that the C30A has ALOT more potential, but people are just too afraid to try.

I also belive the the legend motors have alot more potential.....just no one tries.

And the J-series motors.....(MDX, CL, TL, new accord) Good Lord that is a awesome setup, wait until i finish my roommates MDX/TL-TypeS Hybrid in his '03 Accord.

Yeah that's honda design standards...they use many of the same blocks and change the important parts to suit their needs. Actually I was already asking myself the same question so I've already ordered a bunch of bearings etc to compare some stuff.

There is a guy over on acura-legend.com that just finshed a block/head swap, used an RL block and put on the legend DOHC head....made some intersting numbers..you should check it out. He's tuning it fully soon. His baseline made more torque than HP!

Yes, untapped potential...that's all I'm saying. And that's what I will prove cause I'm not afraid to bust an engine into a 1000 pieces at 9000rpms if I learn something from it.

 

[sjs]

You make it sound too mysterious. Nobody ever said that you can't get more power from them normally aspirated. It's been done on the track for years and there are probably countless street versions running around Japan. Comptech has long sold reworked heads, cams, etc. and Chris at SoS is currently evaluating a variety of NA go-fast parts. F-X has already built at least one large displacement NA engine and others are in the process.

Personally, if I had (lots) more funds and time I would love to build one up myself. But like many people I prefer to go with forced induction for a lot of reasons, none of which include fear or doubt that it can be done. If you have the time, resources and patience then by all means, go for it. I'll be very interested in the results as I am with other performance projects. If people have enough success I may someday build one to campaign in GT2.

 

[satan_srv]

You are correct that in terms of hardware it is nothing revolutionary. But to say that "It's legend motor with a VTEC head and other upgrades" is like saying that the "stock block" CART engines were just Chevy's and Buicks with heads and other upgrades. Double overhead cam VTEC, Titanium rods, VVIS, 8k redline and 90 BHP/liter were anything but commonplace in 1990. As for the 10.2:1 compression, again that was 1990 when they worried about high octane fuel availability in the future, and electronic controls were not what they are today.

I say nothing revolutionary because it wasn't the only DOHC VTEC motor out there doing it right in 1990

The JDM H22a was DOHC VTEC, 10.6:1 compression, 90BHP/L (197hp, 2.2l), 7400 redline, also in 1990.

I'm not comparing this to IROC motors

 

[KGP]

1. typo
2. you're an ass
3. I wasn't going to use the same map there smart guy. And the nsx is not that unique. It's legend motor with a VTEC head and and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary
4. all motor means NA (as opposed to FI), perhaps you are too busy being self-righteous to be up on current slang

Thanks for the contribution.

Wow, a lot in this thread I want to respond to, but this is the frist stop. Re:
1. Fine, and I'm sure Andy was having fun with the typo.
2. Last guy that made a similar comment is no longer here, so think before you type.
3. The NSX ECU has proved to be quite unique. I'll leave the "It's legend motor with a VTEC head and and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary" comment to others should they want to respond.

 

[KGP]

Anyone using an AEM EMS on an allmotor nsx?

Yes, FX has used the AEM in a NA build. See this thread. I can't remeber the forum member, but someone here has it.

 

[satan_srv]

Wow, a lot in this thread I want to respond to, but this is the frist stop. Re:
1. Fine, and I'm sure Andy was having fun with the typo.
2. Last guy that made a similar comment is no longer here, so think before you type.
3. The NSX ECU has proved to be quite unique. I'll leave the "It's legend motor with a VTEC head and and other upgrades, nothing revolutionary" comment to others should they want to respond.

think before I type? I'm sorry but I don't give a lot of respect to people who choose to pick at little points like my choice of verbiage of motor vs. engine...who really cares? Mechancial Engineers, that's who. If you feel like banning me go ahead I will just post my results on Honda-Tech instead, I'm here to build motors not be everybody's best friend

As for the engine comment, it is general statement but it's true. You can gloss it over all you want but a legend motor was the starting point for the NSX engine development.

 

[satan_srv]

Re: Re: Highest All Motor Numbers

Yes, FX has used the AEM in a NA build. See this thread. I can't remeber the forum member, but someone here has it.

thanks a bunch dude.

edit: why do they call a 3.3L motor a 3.5?

 

[KGP]

I respect NA.

I do too......except when you have been to the top of the mountain, it is difficult to come back down.

And the top of the mountain is....? [chuckling]

Come see me. My piggy-back SS box is as reliable as the day is long.

I wish I would have had yours last summer.

 

[KGP]

Re: Re: Re: Highest All Motor Numbers

thanks a bunch dude.

edit: why do they call a 3.3L motor a 3.5?

Short answer: Their HO NA build increases displacement to 3.5l. In one instance, the owner opted to only go to 3.3l because he was going to spray.