Hey ... WI Road America Guys ...
- Thread starter ktan
- Start date
nsxtasy said:
I'll let Tom respond to that one . . .
gobble said:
It was one year old. And yes, I did experience a bit of fade with proper fluid but obviously nothing like the fade one gets with air in the lines.
I am a bit surprised to see you sticking up for the stock brakes given your recent experiences at Blackhawk and Road America. I think Tom's comment about the "rookie" mistake of doing the SC before the BBK has probably put you on the defensive side of the stock brake issue . . .
Oh well, I'll just go home and look at my dyno graph to cheer myself up . . . :biggrin:
I may be setting up a dyno day with some local folks in the next few weeks if you are interested. I am going to try to get them to agree to two pulls for $50-60 a car, with 4-6 cars or more attending. An SOS Stage II car may be there.
I've never had problems with the stock brakes in 4 years and probably 15 track events. I don't want to get into a debate about driving skills, but having done this for 10 years I'm pretty sure that I'm on the brakes at least as hard as you. I'll leave it there.
Blackhawk was a problem because I threw cheap metal master pads on the car that I had sitting in my garage. I didn't want to just throw them away. They were terrible pads and I'll never use them again. That problem carried over into my first session last weekend because of material left on the rotors, the same material you saw on my rotors when it was sitting on the dyno. I think you even commented how bad my brakes felt when you drove the car. After that wore off, the brakes were fine with the Cobalt pads. I don't think you will find any discussion in these forums of me ever complaining about the stock brakes.
I read your dyno thread and sent you a pm. I think it would be great to do a dyno event, but caution about trying too hard to get the price down. Brad is trying to make a go of it in a tough business. It would be nice to help him out and see him survive for a while. $50 is too low.
Blackhawk was a problem because I threw cheap metal master pads on the car that I had sitting in my garage. I didn't want to just throw them away. They were terrible pads and I'll never use them again. That problem carried over into my first session last weekend because of material left on the rotors, the same material you saw on my rotors when it was sitting on the dyno. I think you even commented how bad my brakes felt when you drove the car. After that wore off, the brakes were fine with the Cobalt pads. I don't think you will find any discussion in these forums of me ever complaining about the stock brakes.
I read your dyno thread and sent you a pm. I think it would be great to do a dyno event, but caution about trying too hard to get the price down. Brad is trying to make a go of it in a tough business. It would be nice to help him out and see him survive for a while. $50 is too low.
With my first ever track event completed at RA, I too experienced brake issues. I was in the novice class (Tim was my instructor), but I was still hitting speeds of 125 into 5 and 12. Not bad for a beginner I guess. Anyway, here's my issue...
My front rotors now have a bad pulsation after the event. They gradually got worse as I piled on more track time. This could be due to one or more of the following reasons:
1. I was braking too early and too long, and warped them.
2. Pads weren't bedded properly.
3. I was using the Axxis Ultimate pads, and they left sporadic material on the rotors.
Now it seems like some folks have no problem with the stock brakes, while others do. I seem to be part of the latter, because I toasted mine. I realize that being a novice could have contributed to improper braking technique that fried my fronts. Thoughts? Ryan seems to think that my issue is related to #1, and I tend to agree with him on this.
This week I'm installing new Cobalt Friction GT-Sports, new Powerslots, and stainless lines. I'm also running Motul 600. I'll be attending the Gingerman Spring Fling and see what happens.
My front rotors now have a bad pulsation after the event. They gradually got worse as I piled on more track time. This could be due to one or more of the following reasons:
1. I was braking too early and too long, and warped them.
2. Pads weren't bedded properly.
3. I was using the Axxis Ultimate pads, and they left sporadic material on the rotors.
Now it seems like some folks have no problem with the stock brakes, while others do. I seem to be part of the latter, because I toasted mine. I realize that being a novice could have contributed to improper braking technique that fried my fronts. Thoughts? Ryan seems to think that my issue is related to #1, and I tend to agree with him on this.
This week I'm installing new Cobalt Friction GT-Sports, new Powerslots, and stainless lines. I'm also running Motul 600. I'll be attending the Gingerman Spring Fling and see what happens.
gobble said:
I agree. Really dirty too.
Lets see what the masses think of our brake debate. Cast your vote.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18
gobble said:
I think $50-60 is market rate for what I am looking for. I don't think $75 is a good price for a single dyno pull. It would be a package deal, not a single car, and thus I think that rate is appropriate for a couple of hours of dyno time. It will likely be significantly more than $75/hour, perhaps 100-150/hour with 4-6 cars taking approx. 2-2.5 hours. I am not trying to make them lose money and I don't think that is what my proposal suggests.
I would guess the difficult of the business is bringing people in the door. They probably lose far more money in idle time than they do with slightly discounted dyno rates for groups.
In any event, I haven't even called them yet so they may not be interested. I will check your PM.
gobble said:
Your most recent experience left a much greater impression on me as to your perception of the brakes. It was apparently an atypical experience in your NSX track experience.
As for skill, I have no doubt you can put down better lap times than I can given the disparity in our experience.
In any event, I don't intend to disparage the stock brakes. I want the insane stopping power that a BBK provides and anything less than that is going to give me some pause. I have experienced some fade at the track, but I don't mean to suggest they are not up to the task. I have 7 track days on the OEM rotors that came on the car 23k miles ago. I also was surprised at how well the OEM pads did at the track. That said, I find myself wanting more, just like I want 550 hp at the wheels and everything else.
brahtw8 said:
It doesn't hurt to ask and maybe he would jump at the chance. I don't know. I thought $75 was cheap though.
"They" is really just "He". Brad is a machinist during the day with a large investment in trying to get a business going at night. I'd like to help him out and don't mind spending a few bucks there. I think Borchardt is really the only other game in town and you'll find that they're not very friendly to deal with.
Ken,
I have timed just about every NSX at RA over the past few years at different events including NSXPO. I have a full hour tape of the Instructors on track I know who the fast guys are. This is my take on it.
Cunningham
Bergman
Hunter
Bjerke
Wiggins
Ken
This is what my stopwatch says in order. I was in Jeff B's car a couple times just before he sold it and he only touches 140 into 1,5 and 12 and his is fast. Jeff's,Brian's and Mike's NSX's all had the Brembo BBK must be some reason for that.
I have timed just about every NSX at RA over the past few years at different events including NSXPO. I have a full hour tape of the Instructors on track I know who the fast guys are. This is my take on it.
Cunningham
Bergman
Hunter
Bjerke
Wiggins
Ken
This is what my stopwatch says in order. I was in Jeff B's car a couple times just before he sold it and he only touches 140 into 1,5 and 12 and his is fast. Jeff's,Brian's and Mike's NSX's all had the Brembo BBK must be some reason for that.
You will increase the improvement of your brakes more by switching to R compound tires and track pads than you will by switching to bigger calipers. That's why most people do the former before the latter (unless they are doing it for the bling rather than for the performancebrahtw8 said:
).
nsxtasy said:You will increase the improvement of your brakes more by switching to R compound tires and track pads than you will by switching to bigger calipers. That's why most people do the former before the latter (unless they are doing it for the bling rather than for the performance
I don't want to switch to R-Compounds just yet. I know they will improve things a great deal, but I think they mask mistakes and give one a false sense of their driving ability because they increase grip so much over street tires. I think I am still a year or two away from R-Compounds. I am also a year or two away from a BBK.
I may go to the Cobalt Spec VRs when I use up the GTs.
I care not for cosmetic mods (although I love my aluminum trim rings).
gobble said:
I am all for supporting our local dyno guy. I would have no problem with you broaching the idea with him as to having 4-6 or more cars come by some night and finding out what kind of deal he would be willing to run at that volume for people who only wanted 1 or 2 dyno pulls and weren't doing any tuning in between. For what I propose, I think 50-60 per car is very appropriate. If he charges $75 per hour, this should well exceed that.
Jeff's did not have the BBK, either. And he and Hunter were pretty darn close, despite the difference in brake calipers.NSX 3.0 said:
Sure. Peter, Mike, and Bryan all have race-prepped NSXs - with roll cages, lexan windows, stripped interiors, etc. Within that "money no object" context, sure! As long as you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars prepping your car (and making it unusable on the street), you may as well get bigger brake calipers, too (although I seriously wonder whether the weight reduction makes the bigger calipers even more unnecessary).NSX 3.0 said:
And I find it funny that you write your post in this way, as though you are trying to make me look slow by listing only the instructors (who are indeed faster than me, although FWIW Wiggins and I are pretty close, and his NSX is a Zanardi). Nice move, Steve - really classy of you...
Sure, go ahead and post them. Of course, you WILL post whether there was other traffic on each lap you timed, right? And you won't be posting lap times when someone was held up by traffic, or slowing to let traffic pass, right? (Somehow, the whole idea of posting lap times for someone who didn't even know that he was being timed, and may have had worn pads and trying to take it easy, or even been on a cool-down lap, seems pretty underhanded to me.)gobble said:
Bench race and eat bratwurst?gobble said:
nsxtasy said:Jeff's did not have the BBK, either. And he and Hunter were pretty darn close, despite the difference in brake calipers.
Sure. Peter, Mike, and Bryan all have race-prepped NSXs - with roll cages, lexan windows, stripped interiors, etc. Within that "money no object" context, sure! As long as you're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars prepping your car (and making it unusable on the street), you may as well get bigger brake calipers, too (although I seriously wonder whether the weight reduction makes the bigger calipers even more unnecessary).
And I find it funny that you write your post in this way, as though you are trying to make me look slow by listing only the instructors (who are indeed faster than me, although FWIW Wiggins and I are pretty close, and his NSX is a Zanardi). Nice move, Steve - really classy of you...
Ken,
I'm not trying to put you down just posting what my stopwatch says. I just have a hard time believing you hit 140+ at RA. BTW Jeff B DID have the Brembo BBK on his NSX I bought his SSR GT1's here is the link.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22088&highlight=brembo+bbk+sale
nsxtasy said:
Calipers are unsprung weight and thus any weight reduction is significant, although not as significant as weight reduction of tires and wheels (rotating mass).
Some folks believe a one pound reduction in unsprung weight is worth 10 pounds of sprung weight reduction.
By comparing me with two professional race car drivers and a guy who totalled an NSX on the track. Niiiiice...NSX 3.0 said:
BTW, when exactly did you time me at Road America in my NSX? I don't think I've had it there since 2001.
Where did I say that?NSX 3.0 said:
I could be wrong about that, or he may not have had it at the times I've driven alongside him (and ridden with him as a passenger). Regardless, Jeff is an excellent driver - drives fast and makes it look easy, and is always very safe and courteous (unlike another of the folks you mentioned).NSX 3.0 said:
gobble said:
Been in Jeff B's for a ride he clocked a 2.38
nsxtasy said:By comparing me with two professional race car drivers and a guy who totalled an NSX on the track. Niiiiice...
BTW, when exactly did you time me at Road America in my NSX? I don't think I've had it there since 2001.
Where did I say that?
I could be wrong about that, or he may not have had it at the times I've driven alongside him (and ridden with him as a passenger). Regardless, Jeff is an excellent driver - drives fast and makes it look easy, and is always very safe and courteous (unlike another of the folks you mentioned).
Above post Ken (144 mph) fourth gear did I read it wrong.
gobble said:
PD (BBK) ran a 2:23.871 with his SC NSX, and a 2:27.824 with the NA set-up (only a few seconds difference between both setups)
Mike Bergman (BBK) cracked a 2:29 in his NA NSX (low budget car compared to PD's)
Nick Zylstra (BBK), Brian Hunter (BBK), and Jeff Bjerke (BBK) are all tie @ 2:38 with street NSX's (Yes Ken, Jeff B had Brembo's, which he took off and sold seperate when he sold the car) (also Brians black NSX was not a race car, neither was Jeff's or Nicks)
Tim Wiggins (Zanardi brakes) is mid to high 2:40's
I ran a 2:49 in my Integra, so I figure with r-compunds and brakes on the NSX I will be around Nick, Jeff, and Brians times. (I am getting 10 mph faster down the straights in the NSX now compared to the Integra) I did crack high 2:50's with the NSX with the chicane on Sat. with stock rims and tires, and brakes.
These times are all WITH the kink.
If you crack a 3:00 time with the chicane, you can consider yourself and your car fast. If you crack 2:50 with the kink, consider yourself fast.
Gobble, you are in the "fast" club at mid 2:40's with the kink. BUT with a charger, you should be in the 2:30's.
We figure the chicane adds approx. 10 seconds to the lap time minimum.
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