Hey ... WI Road America Guys ...
- Thread starter ktan
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I was NEVER brave enough to actually look at the speedo at the kink, but I would guess about 110ish It is odd that you hit your top speeds at 1 and 5. I ALWAYS hit my fastest @ 12. I am sure that I would hit 145 with the kink (NA) and about 135-140 at 1 and 5 (NA)
Well if you are NOT willing to look into larger wheels, I guess you will have to continue to have brake issues EVERY time out. Or run your car at 7/10ths (yeah thats fun) Your choice. The NA NSX's at RA are at the end of the oem brake capacity, and now you throw more bhp at it? No brainer.
Well if you are NOT willing to look into larger wheels, I guess you will have to continue to have brake issues EVERY time out. Or run your car at 7/10ths (yeah thats fun) Your choice. The NA NSX's at RA are at the end of the oem brake capacity, and now you throw more bhp at it? No brainer.
This is the first time I've had brake issues with my NSX. I had the real bad shutter in the first session that went away midway through the second session. I've never felt uncomfortable with the stock brakes when combined with good track pads and good brake fluid. I'm sure there is more to be gained with big brakes, but nothing worth the $5,000 or more that it would cost.
My friend with the blue M3 above has big Stoptech brakes in the front and I think Brembos in the back. With his tricked out suspension, he's faster than me in the corners. When I follow him, I always catch back up in the braking zones.
Again, my car is primarily a street car. I wouldn't get much enjoyment from big brakes on the street, while the CTSC is a blast on the street. If you can figure out a way to put bigger brakes under the factory 7 spoke wheels, I'll be the first to sign up.
I don't remember what the straights were like with the NA car. Do you not get to the point where you need to shift into 5th gear? I had to back off at about the pit exit to avoid having to shift into 5th gear.
My friend with the blue M3 above has big Stoptech brakes in the front and I think Brembos in the back. With his tricked out suspension, he's faster than me in the corners. When I follow him, I always catch back up in the braking zones.
Again, my car is primarily a street car. I wouldn't get much enjoyment from big brakes on the street, while the CTSC is a blast on the street. If you can figure out a way to put bigger brakes under the factory 7 spoke wheels, I'll be the first to sign up.
I don't remember what the straights were like with the NA car. Do you not get to the point where you need to shift into 5th gear? I had to back off at about the pit exit to avoid having to shift into 5th gear.
RP-Motorsports said:
Yeah, I was able to take it through at 110 in my ITR with R compounds and stock suspension. Tires didn't make much noise either, which makes me suspect the adhesion limit is probably 125-ish. I'm not going to take it faster than 110 though, a bad turn-in or lift in the kink at those speeds could be a disaster.
The super-neon could almost hold 90 through it, tires squealing the whole way if I didn't lift before turn-in. At 85-ish, lifting right at the apex wasn't terribly dramatic (for a C5 Vette putting a couple wheels off right in front of me, and low visibility with the dust).
Let me know if you're interested in a pair of almost-new Yokohama A032R 225/50-16, already mounted on rear NSX wheels.gobble said:
I guess I'm not the only one then, because I always hit my fastest speeds at 1 and 5, not at Canada Corner. Even when running the kink, rather than the chicane.RP-Motorsports said:
Tom, I totally disagree on this with you. The stock brakes are more than up to the task, when you couple them with good fluid and pads. Add cooling ducts, even better. I don't have ANY problems with the brakes at RA (or at any other tracks, either). Granted, I don't have a supercharger, but gobble does, and it sounds like he really isn't having any problems, either.RP-Motorsports said:
I'm not saying bigger brakes aren't better, but if you can get by without any brake problems - and apparently, a lot of people other than you are getting by just fine - then there's no need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for calipers, wheels, etc.
We agree on something. :smile:
Thanks for the wheel and tire offer, but I'm going to try for another set of R compounds.
I'm in complete agreement on big brakes. A big brake kit, while nice to have, could easily cost over $10,000 when combined with two sets of wheels and tires. I would need to be crazy (or rich) to spend that kind of money, plus my wife would kill me. The stock NSX brakes are not that bad and the Comptech supercharger doesn't make that dramatic of a difference in weight or speed. Maybe if I had the 450hp Basch Boost?
My BMW friend also hits his top speed going into 1 and 5, though he said Canada corner is close. I do about 105 through the kink, but I know there is plenty of limit left.
And finally, I need to retract that the driver of the Blue BMW claims that there was slow traffic in front of him and say that there was slow traffic in front of him. I guess BMW guys read the NSX forums.
Thanks for the wheel and tire offer, but I'm going to try for another set of R compounds.
I'm in complete agreement on big brakes. A big brake kit, while nice to have, could easily cost over $10,000 when combined with two sets of wheels and tires. I would need to be crazy (or rich) to spend that kind of money, plus my wife would kill me. The stock NSX brakes are not that bad and the Comptech supercharger doesn't make that dramatic of a difference in weight or speed. Maybe if I had the 450hp Basch Boost?
My BMW friend also hits his top speed going into 1 and 5, though he said Canada corner is close. I do about 105 through the kink, but I know there is plenty of limit left.
And finally, I need to retract that the driver of the Blue BMW claims that there was slow traffic in front of him and say that there was slow traffic in front of him. I guess BMW guys read the NSX forums.
Two things, actually. Not that anyone's counting.gobble said:
The Yokohama A032R is an R compound track tire...gobble said:
Ken,
I used the stock brakes for two years and they just did not cut it for me. Powerslot rotors,Hawk pads and Motul 600 fluid. They are good IMO for a session or two and the pedal is close to the floor and man I hate that feeling. I think everyone has a different driving style Tom drives ten-tenth's always he is hard on his equipment...while others drive more conservatively and are more easy on it. All I can say is after upgrading to the Stoptech BBK it is like night and day compared to the stockers. When you hit the brakes you feel it like never before and at RA they pedal was stiff all day long and if there is a track that is hard on your stuff it's RA. For top speed there I always hit the bigger number into 12 I drive maybe 8-9 10th's more conservative I guess and I still see 135+ and 1 and 5 are a couple off that.
I used the stock brakes for two years and they just did not cut it for me. Powerslot rotors,Hawk pads and Motul 600 fluid. They are good IMO for a session or two and the pedal is close to the floor and man I hate that feeling. I think everyone has a different driving style Tom drives ten-tenth's always he is hard on his equipment...while others drive more conservatively and are more easy on it. All I can say is after upgrading to the Stoptech BBK it is like night and day compared to the stockers. When you hit the brakes you feel it like never before and at RA they pedal was stiff all day long and if there is a track that is hard on your stuff it's RA. For top speed there I always hit the bigger number into 12 I drive maybe 8-9 10th's more conservative I guess and I still see 135+ and 1 and 5 are a couple off that.
gobble said:
1) Where do you shop if it takes 10 grand for upgrading brakes. I sell 4 BBK's complete UNDER $2000. 2 UNDER $1500. I sell rims/tires for track use for about $1500. Plus you can find used wheels for the track for cheap. So whole deal is half of what you spent on the charger.
2) Your wife will kill you if you by safety equip for $4000, (BBK+2 sets of wheels and tires) but she is ok to have you spend $8000 on a charger to make you go faster towards a concrete wall?
3) Like Steve said, the section from turn 8 to turn 12 seperates the men from the boys. If you are NOT getting some of your fastest speeds at 12, well then...... :tongue:
4) I do drive 11/10th :biggrin:
5) Steve is correct again stating that if you drive 7/10ths, your oem brakes will be just fine. I had upgraded fluid, pads AND ducting, and only could get 17 min out of them each session.
6) Ken I was still equaling my speed at 12 compared to 1 and 5 EVEN WITH THE CHICANE!
I was hitting 135 mph at all 3 straights. If we were running the kink, I would have seen 5-10 more mph at 12 (will find out at the next event) with a stock NA NSX.
So that's $5000 you don't need to spend if your brakes aren't fading (other than the first or second session on a set of pads, when they're outgassing).RP-Motorsports said:
You do just the front and not the rear? Doesn't this create an uneven bias? Thats still a lot of $$$RP-Motorsports said:
The CTSC was only $7000 shipped to my door.RP-Motorsports said:2) Your wife will kill you if you by safety equip for $4000, (BBK+2 sets of wheels and tires) but she is ok to have you spend $8000 on a charger to make you go faster towards a concrete wall?
Yes, I'm a big pussy. We can't all be as fast as you.RP-Motorsports said:
You need to work on your exit speed from 14 and 3. :biggrin:RP-Motorsports said:6) Ken I was still equaling my speed at 12 compared to 1 and 5 EVEN WITH THE CHICANE!
Sounds like a perfect description of my brakes at RA, stock calipers and all.NSX 3.0 said:
If you're doing all the right things and your brakes are still fading, then by all means do the upgrade. If your brakes aren't fading, then you don't need to spend money for a big brake kit. It's as simple as that.
The NSX as with most high performance cars (not full race cars) do not really need to go with all 4 wheels for a BBK. With the front BBK the car can use the oe master cyl, and for the rear just use ss lines, oem sized slotted rear rotors, and upgraded pads. The only reason I mentioned running big brakes, is because of gobble complaining about his oem brakes. Big rotors will not warp as easy as oem. (run cooler)
I did pick up the speed out of 14 this year. :biggrin:
I did pick up the speed out of 14 this year. :biggrin:
His brakes weren't warping. Warped rotors don't fix themselves.RP-Motorsports said:
RP-Motorsports said:
Hehehe.. don't you sell these BBK brakes? In both Gold and Chrome finishes?
-Chris
I also sell oem rotors, pads, and fluid, but don't reccomend them for track junkies. :tongue: Chris, I think you need some steel toe driving shoes to keep you from 'lifting' in the kink! jk :biggrin:
RP-Motorsports said:
Hahaha... it almost worked once in the chicane.. "Why are all those cones on my line?!"
I tried slaloming between the tires to get through the kink. Whoops. I almost made it, if it weren't for those pesky cornerworkers waving their hands.
nsxtasy said:
I think the disagreement here may be an issue of how hard and fast the two of you are driving.
I don't know what kind of speeds you see at Road America in your NSX, but perhaps you take it a bit easier than Tom does and I think that may have an impact on your perception of the stock brake capability.
I drive my car hard and I don't have a ton of confidence in the stock brakes, even with with upgraded pads and fluid. The lack of confidence causes me to back off just a bit before the heavy braking zones.
I will be going to a BBK, but need to buy different wheels first, so it will be a while. I plan to upgrade the wheels regardless, so the BBK is not the impetus for that change.
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Hi I am thinking would like to enertain some track or poker run event,,,
Sad thing is I sold my NSX bout a year ago,,,: (
Any one have any helpful adfice for a lost soul on what to do here?
Sad thing is I sold my NSX bout a year ago,,,: (
Any one have any helpful adfice for a lost soul on what to do here?
brahtw8 said:
Which pads are you using?
I guarantee you would have an good amount of braking with the stock setup with some track-only pads such as Carbotech or Cobalt's race pads. My car is a bit lighter and a bit more power, and I have lesser calipers and rotors, but the car brakes great with Cobalt Spec VR's, or Carbotech XP9's.
Ken can chime in, but I think that's his point as well. You should be able to get away just fine with stock rotors and calipers if you're willing to get serious about the pads.
Of course, if you don't want to change brakes at the track, you're pretty much stuck with larger brakes. (Or daily drive Spec VR pads, which would be unacceptable to most, but I do it
)
Chris F said:
Cobalt GTs for street/track. I used to run Hawk HPS.
Sure. Buy another NSX and take it to the track.nsx_NSX_nsx said:
(That was easy...)
That's one way of looking at it. It's also possible that Tom's driving overuses the brakes unnecessarily. It's also possible that my cooling ducts make a difference (I don't think Tom has them).brahtw8 said:
What do you mean, "lack of confidence"? Are the brakes actually fading on you (hardware problem)? Or are you just afraid of using them (driver problem)? I'm not trying to be frivolous. But if the brakes are not actually doing anything wrong, then a big brake kit isn't going to make any difference.brahtw8 said:
To get a feel for what the stock NSX brakes are capable of, try going for a ride with a really fast driver in a car with stock brakes. Tim W was there with his Zanardi, and the brakes on his (same as all '97-05) aren't ALL that different from the earlier '91-96 brakes. Or let Jeff B take you for a ride in your car; he was faster in his NSX than anyone else there, and still had the stock calipers when he sold his car to Doug N. You might find that it opens your eyes.
That's sort of my point... not exactly, though. Actually, my point was, if you're using good pads and fluid and such, and your brakes aren't fading after they've been broken in, then you really don't need a big brake kit. (And I'm convinced that many reports of fading are simply due to new pads outgassing the first time they're used on the track.)Chris F said:Which pads are you using?
I guarantee you would have an good amount of braking with the stock setup with some track-only pads such as Carbotech or Cobalt's race pads. My car is a bit lighter and a bit more power, and I have lesser calipers and rotors, but the car brakes great with Cobalt Spec VR's, or Carbotech XP9's.
Ken can chime in, but I think that's his point as well. You should be able to get away just fine with stock rotors and calipers if you're willing to get serious about the pads.
Of course, if you don't want to change brakes at the track, you're pretty much stuck with larger brakes. (Or daily drive Spec VR pads, which would be unacceptable to most, but I do it
Still, Chris's point is also valid (and a good one) - that you might be able to avoid fade simply by going to a track pad, either swapping them before and after events or living with the downsides of also using them on the street (e.g. squeal and ineffectiveness when cold). I certainly wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a big brake kit and bigger wheels and tires before first trying track pads and cooling ducts.
FWIW, I am using street pads (Cobalt GT) and haven't felt any fade (other than outgassing when new), so I don't feel a need to use track pads for that reason.
Acura of Brookfield is very familiar with my front-only cooling ducts (see this topic for photos) and could easily replicate them on anyone's car. They consist of NACA inlet ducts in the front air dam, and 2.5" high-temp duct hose, terminating zip-tied onto flanges that were welded onto my splash guards. They can get the materials nearby from Pegasus for under $150. Throw in a couple of hours of labor to install them (their standard rate is $92/hour) and you've got a nice brake enhancement for around $300 or so.
nsxtasy said:
To help me better understand the comparison I would appreciate a response to the question of how hard you drive your car and what kind of speeds you see at Road America. I think this is a factor in the discussion, although certainly not the only factor.
nsxtasy said:
The brakes do not feel as strong as I would like. The lack of confidence is a mental state that results from some fade but primarly just not as much stopping power as I would like to have. Like power, you can never have enough.
Believe me when I say I am not afraid of using them and I know how to get on them properly. I am not saying the stock brakes are inadequate, only that they don't breed the confidence that I would like for repeated hard track use.
nsxtasy said:
Tim W. was my instructor and I have ridden in his car. I have also ridden in other NSXs on track and had others drive my car on track. Neither was an eye opening experience, as I drive hard and fast, albeit imperfectly. FWIW, Tim W. wrote on my application that I should be placed in advanced rather than intermediate for my next HPDE. He said I have the "go-fast gene".
How hard? Hard. I haven't ridden with Tom so I can't compare. But since we're apparently bench racing here, I'm sure I'm way faster than Tom all the way around the track.brahtw8 said:
And I don't watch the speedometer when I'm out there. I can tell you that I haven't needed fifth gear (144+ mph) in the NSX, and need fifth (117+ mph) in the ITR only on the back straight (although I'm feathering the throttle at redline in fourth going into the braking zone at the end of the front straight and approaching Canada Corner).
If you'd like me to take you for a ride in my NSX, sign up for the NSXCA Spring Fling May 21-23, or the BMW CCA event at Mid-Ohio May 28-29. If the weather is decent, I'll have my NSX on the track at both events.
