Health Reform Bill.........

[Vega$ NSX]

Realized the sarcastic boldness from the font expression and had to chuckle, however, I used yours when I needed a quote about planning health to make my point. We are along the same lines. :smile:

I don't know. You are on the passline, whereas I've always had a hard time keeping my crayon within the lines. :tongue: This has nothing to do with health care reform as I have no opinion on the issue. As I said before, I plan on never getting sick, hurt or dying so it's not my mess to worry about. :wink::biggrin:

 

[Edwardo]

Forget the political debate for just one second. I think when most Americans heard the phrase "Health Care Reform", they were thinking "Find ways to reduce the cost of health care, and pass laws to that end".

That is not what we got though. All that has happened is that money/care will be taken from one group of Americans and redistributed to another group.

Health care costs will continue to increase...

 

[DocL]

The bill "fixes" dropped the penalty to about $650, I believe, for not having insurance.

Seems to me that it's a lot cheaper to not have insurance at this point. Just pay the fine once a year and get free medical care.

$650 is less than two months worth of premiums for me and doesn't take into account any co-pays or my 20% of any costs above and beyond standard care.

Nope. It's $650 or 2.5% of your income; whichever is greater. So if you make more than $26,000 you pay greater or equal to $650. Of course most of population makes less than that, so a $650 penalty isn't too bad after you pay your income taxes.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

So if you make more than $26,000 you pay greater or equal to $650. Of course most of population makes less than that...

Most of the population makes less than $26,000??? I'm not too sure about that.

 

[DocL]

Most of the population makes less than $26,000??? I'm not too sure about that.

Sorry. I left out the [sarcasm]........[/sarcasm].:wink:

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Sorry. I left out the [sarcasm]........[/sarcasm].:wink:

Ohhh sarcasm. I get sarcasm. It's the stuff I was using earlier. Your flavor must have been different than mine, I didn't immediately recognize the taste. :biggrin:

 

[swerve2007]

I'll hold back opinions but have no problem providing facts. There are those in the political arena that have been diligent in slowly constructing and reinforcing the fallacy of insurance or other "profits" being the problem.

Their thesis consists of the idea that if one were to remove the profits from insurance companies and use those funds for health care, instead of say paying a dividend to share holders, it would alleviate the problem to some extent.

Time to get real and enter the real world-all insurance company profits total to 0.4% of total health care expenditures in the United States. Less than one half of one percent. What are the other "profits"? Hospitals? Doctors? Nurses? They all have to be paid based on their productivity and in the case of those with extraordinary education, their time and $ investment in the form of how much it costs to replace those individuals. The government cannot and will not lower these costs without increasing competition (forcing med schools to output more doctors etc.) or degrading the quality of health care proportionally to the degree costs are reduced. No fairy tales will correct this.

Enter the Eurozone.. these people have much less discretionary income than those in the United States of the proportional income level. Funneling funds into the government to be redistributed cannot equate to a net gain for a society and in fact will undeniably result in a net loss due to unnecessary administration costs, lack of a profit motive, political influence, and the extraction of valuable excess capital from the private sector that could be used for productive means.

If the majority in a democracy want socialized medicine (apparently these days a very strict majority if you get my drift), then the nature of a democracy (or republic more accurately) will dictate that it is implemented. But a massively over leveraged government with grossly over leveraged citizens must know when they are and are not in the position to implement such measures. The real discussion should be about is it worth removing 20% of your discretionary income for 5-10% of it essentially disappearing and roughly 10% of it going to socialized medicine ran by bureaucrats that will inevitably result in lower quality care. I haven't heard many politicians ask me that, not that they care.

government did try to induce competition- remember the 'option'? now there is no competition- how do you call that? a monopoly?
fair enaugh, if there is no profit in insurance, why in the world are there any still in business?
apparently all the answers are at the fingertips so "lets get real" and go fix it. as is this great system that gives you the best care in the world gives none to many, not because they are not willing to pay for it but because they can't get it.
quick example for you- you are riding your bike, get slammed by an uninsured drunk and are f-ed up for life. do you think you'll have insurance? if you claim otherwise then you should really check into this- if you have an existing policy at the time, it is now THE ONLY POLICY YOU WILL EVER HAVE along with coverage cuts and rate increases at will. how do i know it is true? my story.
so yes, you can demonize everything that is happening yet i did not see anyone doing anything to regulate this mess untill now. i am not defending the law about to be passed but the previous administration gave us even less.

edit:
and no, i am not a democrat, nor a republican, and i guess i just am a bit ashamed that we spend more money on bs in this country than on ensuring that our citizens are treated humanely.
maybe we need to admit that for some things the pure capitalistic model you advocate simply does not work- unless money is more important that life.

 

[ALSWEL]

I am going to schedule doctor's appointments all over town months in advance. This includes visits with specialists for knee surgeries, heart operations, MRIs, you name it. If I ever do get sick, I will be in their office in no time. If I don't make the appointment, they can charge the gov't for my missed visit. Doctors will love me, my family will love me and it will bring me peace of mind. A win win for sure. Vega$, this is more sarcasm fyi....stupid sarcasm but sarcasm.

 

[swerve2007]

Forget the political debate for just one second. I think when most Americans heard the phrase "Health Care Reform", they were thinking "Find ways to reduce the cost of health care, and pass laws to that end".

That is not what we got though. All that has happened is that money/care will be taken from one group of Americans and redistributed to another group.

Health care costs will continue to increase...

exactly, thats why both sides are equally at fault.

 

[swerve2007]

speaking of 'profits' for the last time (perceived or not), one more area you should check out is the pharmaceuticals- oddly, half of my family is involved in the business and i know a bit about how it works. maybe if they quit pushing the 'name brand' medication to patients when there are generic options available at 5% of the cost we could lower the overal spending?

i suppose now we all agree that the current law is flawed, sadly it is a bit late thanks to the partisanship we witnessed- we had a fair chance to get it semi-right, instead we got a finger- middle one from republicans and the thumb up-the-butt from democrats.

 

[ALSWEL]

maybe if they quit pushing the 'name brand' medication to patients when there are generic options available at 5% of the cost we could lower the overal spending?

I learned this last year. When I went to the emergency room and later had surgery on my back, they used 'name brand' drugs the whole time. Later when I asked about it, they said it was because I didn't specify that I preferred the generics. No one asked me, I am sure I signed something at some point that stated I had no preference. The costs were 3 times as much and my insurance covered 30% less. Careful!

 

[eddiensx]

I sell health plans so any bill that forces people would buy will be boon to me but I'm against it anyway since it will just force costs up not down. It is badly written and has nothing in it to contain costs. There needs to be some healthcare reform but this bill stinks. Like all politics the lobbyists wrote it that back the winning party.

From what I am hearing, Haalth Insurance agents will be a dead industry. Osama feels it is wrong for anyone to make more money than him, and even worse from selling health insurance. THE HORROR!!

I'm a CFP and I dread the idiocy he has for my industry. Hopefully I will be retired in 6 years anyway.

 

[nsxotic911]

I'll hold back opinions but have no problem providing facts. There are those in the political arena that have been diligent in slowly constructing and reinforcing the fallacy of insurance or other "profits" being the problem.

Their thesis consists of the idea that if one were to remove the profits from insurance companies and use those funds for health care, instead of say paying a dividend to share holders, it would alleviate the problem to some extent.

Time to get real and enter the real world-all insurance company profits total to 0.4% of total health care expenditures in the United States. Less than one half of one percent. What are the other "profits"? Hospitals? Doctors? Nurses? They all have to be paid based on their productivity and in the case of those with extraordinary education, their time and $ investment in the form of how much it costs to replace those individuals. The government cannot and will not lower these costs without increasing competition (forcing med schools to output more doctors etc.) or degrading the quality of health care proportionally to the degree costs are reduced. No fairy tales will correct this.

Enter the Eurozone.. these people have much less discretionary income than those in the United States of the proportional income level. Funneling funds into the government to be redistributed cannot equate to a net gain for a society and in fact will undeniably result in a net loss due to unnecessary administration costs, lack of a profit motive, political influence, and the extraction of valuable excess capital from the private sector that could be used for productive means.

If the majority in a democracy want socialized medicine (apparently these days a very strict majority if you get my drift), then the nature of a democracy (or republic more accurately) will dictate that it is implemented. But a massively over leveraged government with grossly over leveraged citizens must know when they are and are not in the position to implement such measures. The real discussion should be about is it worth removing 20% of your discretionary income for 5-10% of it essentially disappearing and roughly 10% of it going to socialized medicine ran by bureaucrats that will inevitably result in lower quality care. I haven't heard many politicians ask me that, not that they care.

Sahhtt for President.
Vanchu for Vice President.
Me for Prime czar so I can edit anti-Sahhtt posts, haha, just kidding!

 

[SilverStone05]

For those that advocate taking the profit component out of healthcare I ask you this.

Is it fair to say that your line of business, whatever it may be, should also eliminate their profit margins as well? Should your salaries and benefits be cut, should you suffer simply because 10% of the population say they can't afford what you offer?

Healthcare is NOT a right.....it is a service. It will be a service as long as folks go to school, practice and sell their expertise to those in need. If you think that you will need this service sometime in your life, well it would be in your best interest to save for it, or purchase insurance should the need arise.

There is no reason that a Dr./surgeon/nurse should have to render his or her services for free. There is no reason for an insurance company to operate without profit. You don't render your services for free....why should anyone else?

Taking the profit component out of any line of business will stall innovation and promote mediocrity. Money drives competition, innovation and the pursuit of perfection.

Take away that component and the status quo remains. Why would anyone go through the 10 years of school to get paid next to nothing?

No more cures, no more machines, no more better, cheaper and more humane treatmeants.

If you want free stuff, just say it for God's sake. Don't blame Dr.s and insurance companies.

For those of you who think that mediocre treatment is deserved by all....that 90% of us should suffer simply because you don't want to pay- I think it is selfish and un American.

 

[drtruong]

If you want your voice to be heard, register to vote on Nov.

 

[PhAnToM]

I do apologize if this is quite random. :biggrin: I just had to share because of its relation to this thread. But did anyone happen to catch this ad? Here's a screenshot.

 

[docjohn]

For those that advocate taking the profit component out of healthcare I ask you this.

Is it fair to say that your line of business, whatever it may be, should also eliminate their profit margins as well? Should your salaries and benefits be cut, should you suffer simply because 10% of the population say they can't afford what you offer?

Healthcare is NOT a right.....it is a service. It will be a service as long as folks go to school, practice and sell their expertise to those in need. If you think that you will need this service sometime in your life, well it would be in your best interest to save for it, or purchase insurance should the need arise.

There is no reason that a Dr./surgeon/nurse should have to render his or her services for free. There is no reason for an insurance company to operate without profit. You don't render your services for free....why should anyone else?

Taking the profit component out of any line of business will stall innovation and promote mediocrity. Money drives competition, innovation and the pursuit of perfection.

Take away that component and the status quo remains. Why would anyone go through the 10 years of school to get paid next to nothing?

No more cures, no more machines, no more better, cheaper and more humane treatmeants.

If you want free stuff, just say it for God's sake. Don't blame Dr.s and insurance companies.

For those of you who think that mediocre treatment is deserved by all....that 90% of us should suffer simply because you don't want to pay- I think it is selfish and un American.

Some very good points,and on the surface these truths seem so obvious.As I'm sure most people realize doctors want to make people well using the best tools for the job.In our medical model in the US,from a technologic standpoint we are the worlds inovators/creators/discoverers ect ect.To get a grip on costs you have to start at the beginning.As long as MRI machines are 1-2 million dollars,as long as it costs hundreds of millions to get a drug to market,ect ect that cost has to be made up for somewhere......Now on the flipside there has been a rampent explosion of high cost tests,why?.. well there is a demand,fueled in part by greed on the basis of self referal to doctor owned procedures,defensive medicine related to fear of malpractice suits,and believe it or not patient driven demand for more definative tests....My issue with the current "reform" is that it is not addressing the fundamental root causes of americas high cost of medical care.The dems are just pruning the weed but are not removing the roots so to speak.Now I'm not saying that a purely privatized,free market system dos'nt have its own iissues,but the change we need has to address and reward the most important relationship,that being between the doctor and patient:smile:

 

[Jimbo]

I have a question.

What ever happened to Medicaid?

I thought Medicaid was initiated to help people who were poor and couldn't afford health care?

So since we have Medicaid why were all these millions of people without health care?

Is Medicaid broken? Of course, we already know that Medicare is in financial problems.

If so, why should we have any confidence that the government can run another health care program?

 

[FeetFxr]

I have a question.

What ever happened to Medicaid?

I thought Medicaid was initiated to help people who were poor and couldn't afford health care?

So since we have Medicaid why were all these millions of people without health care?

Is Medicaid broken? Of course, we already know that Medicare is in financial problems.

If so, why should we have any confidence that the government can run another health care program?

Many workers, especially self employed and small business employees, make too much money to qualify for Medicaid but can't afford the premiums for regular insurance coverage. Therefore, when sick or injured they pay out of pocket or go to the emergency rooms and cause those of us who do pay for insurance to pay much more. Also, you can't qualify for Medicaid if you have too many assets, such as a home.

Yes, Medicaid is broken because of the ridiculous amount of fraud that occurs. But, soon 30-40% of the population will have Medicaid and the AMA has a new medical symbol that accurately depicts the Healthcare Plan you will be getting.


<img src=http://podiatrym.com/pmphotos/PMNews3873.jpg>

 

[steveny]

maybe we need to admit that for some things the pure capitalistic model you advocate simply does not work- unless money is more important that life.

Do you mean is my money more important than my life or the life someone that I have never met who has been smokin' crack for the last five years and just fell off his bike and broke his leg. Had the money to buy insurance but bought crack and after he gets his leg fixed will get free rehab only to end up smoking crack again?

BTW, if that person didn't get free health care everyone who WANT'S it COULD afford it.

 

[swerve2007]

Do you mean is my money more important than my life or the life someone that I have never met who has been smokin' crack for the last five years and just fell off his bike and broke his leg. Had the money to buy insurance but bought crack and after he gets his leg fixed will get free rehab only to end up smoking crack again?

BTW, if that person didn't get free health care everyone who WANT'S it COULD afford it.

wow, i had no idea 30 million americans were smoking crack.

 

[sahtt]

government did try to induce competition- remember the 'option'? now there is no competition- how do you call that? a monopoly?
fair enaugh, if there is no profit in insurance, why in the world are there any still in business?
apparently all the answers are at the fingertips so "lets get real" and go fix it. as is this great system that gives you the best care in the world gives none to many, not because they are not willing to pay for it but because they can't get it.
quick example for you- you are riding your bike, get slammed by an uninsured drunk and are f-ed up for life. do you think you'll have insurance? if you claim otherwise then you should really check into this- if you have an existing policy at the time, it is now THE ONLY POLICY YOU WILL EVER HAVE along with coverage cuts and rate increases at will. how do i know it is true? my story.
so yes, you can demonize everything that is happening yet i did not see anyone doing anything to regulate this mess untill now. i am not defending the law about to be passed but the previous administration gave us even less.

edit:
and no, i am not a democrat, nor a republican, and i guess i just am a bit ashamed that we spend more money on bs in this country than on ensuring that our citizens are treated humanely.
maybe we need to admit that for some things the pure capitalistic model you advocate simply does not work- unless money is more important that life.

Your post a little difficult for me to follow. It appears to me you are making primarily emotional appeals to a problem that can only be dealt with by choosing one very difficult decision over another that involves primarily legal and monetary matters. If someone maims you, they should be held responsible for that. I don't see how you can ignore that which should be glaringly obvious and then attempt to blame insurance companies. Insurance companies are nothing more than a function of supply and demand coupled with a profit motive working within the regulatory framework provided by Congress. If you are asking them to give money when they have no business doing so, despite sad circumstances like you mentioned, it's not rational or sustainable.

Medical care is becoming an alarmingly high percentage of our domestic expenditures. Pouring more money into the most inefficient areas of this sector with the claim it's going to lower costs isn't just laughable, it's a bold faced lie. How anyone with the ability to read and write can spend more than 5 minutes reading about the history of SS and medicare and reach the conclusion that any further large scale government programs of this nature will be anything less than catastrophic fiscal failures is incomprehensible to me. It's worth noting the recently "passed" bill is not socialized medicine, but it's a strong push in that direction. You could argue that at least one third of the system is already socialized.

 

[swerve2007]

For those that advocate taking the profit component out of healthcare I ask you this.

Is it fair to say that your line of business, whatever it may be, should also eliminate their profit margins as well? Should your salaries and benefits be cut, should you suffer simply because 10% of the population say they can't afford what you offer?

Healthcare is NOT a right.....it is a service. It will be a service as long as folks go to school, practice and sell their expertise to those in need. If you think that you will need this service sometime in your life, well it would be in your best interest to save for it, or purchase insurance should the need arise.

There is no reason that a Dr./surgeon/nurse should have to render his or her services for free. There is no reason for an insurance company to operate without profit. You don't render your services for free....why should anyone else?

Taking the profit component out of any line of business will stall innovation and promote mediocrity. Money drives competition, innovation and the pursuit of perfection.

Take away that component and the status quo remains. Why would anyone go through the 10 years of school to get paid next to nothing?

No more cures, no more machines, no more better, cheaper and more humane treatmeants.

If you want free stuff, just say it for God's sake. Don't blame Dr.s and insurance companies.

For those of you who think that mediocre treatment is deserved by all....that 90% of us should suffer simply because you don't want to pay- I think it is selfish and un American.

show me where i said that we should limit compensation for medical personnell?

 

[steveny]

wow, i had no idea 30 million americans were smoking crack.

I know the number seems low, probably closer to 50 million that are, smoking crack, gaming the system, living off other people, not being productive (ie. using more than they are contributing)...

BTW, if you feel compelled you can always donate money. I know someone who needs it. They have no health insurance, well none that they pay for. The poor lady is 29 years old. She has NINE kids to take care of on her own, well she has a guy living with her but she doesn't tell her case worker that because they would take his income into consideration and she wouldn't get ~6k a month in free money from welfare and they would cut off the free medical assistance she gets. If that happened they wouldn't have any money left for 50" plasmas and 10 dollar coffee's. I'll let her know you're sending a check.

 

[swerve2007]

Your post a little difficult for me to follow. It appears to me you are making primarily emotional appeals to a problem that can only be dealt with by choosing one very difficult decision over another that involves primarily legal and monetary matters. If someone maims you, they should be held responsible for that. I don't see how you can ignore that which should be glaringly obvious and then attempt to blame insurance companies. Insurance companies are nothing more than a function of supply and demand coupled with a profit motive working within the regulatory framework provided by Congress. If you are asking them to give money when they have no business doing so, despite sad circumstances like you mentioned, it's not rational or sustainable.

Medical care is becoming an alarmingly high percentage of our domestic expenditures. Pouring more money into the most inefficient areas of this sector with the claim it's going to lower costs isn't just laughable, it's a bold faced lie. How anyone with the ability to read and write can spend more than 5 minutes reading about the history of SS and medicare and reach the conclusion that any further large scale government programs of this nature will be anything less than catastrophic fiscal failures is incomprehensible to me. It's worth noting the recently "passed" bill is not socialized medicine, but it's a strong push in that direction. You could argue that at least one third of the system is already socialized.

it is very easy not to do anything for several decades and then criticise someone that actually had the balls to do something, good or bad (we'll see). in any event, the least we get out of this is the attention to the problem and maybe that will finally produce something.
historically, if one side does not want to compromise then the other side will force an outcome that is even more extreme and thats what we got.
we need to cut costs and frankly, middleman profits are the most glaring. and btw, your statistic od 0.4% profit for the insurance companies should be based only on the insurance companies' spending, not overall healthcare costs involving medicare and medicaid, prime example of molding statistical data to fit the argument.
i hope you will never have to become 'emotional' about healthcare, especially when you can afford it and are being fleeced just because they can. (in the real world people that cause accidents do not always survive to be sued for compensation).