Health Reform Bill.........

[swerve2007]

I know the number seems low, probably closer to 50 million that are, smoking crack, gaming the system, living off other people, not being productive (ie. using more than they are contributing)...

BTW, if you feel compelled you can always donate money. I know someone who needs it. They have no health insurance, well none that they pay for. The poor lady is 29 years old. She has NINE kids to take care of on her own, well she has a guy living with her but she doesn't tell her case worker that because they would take his income into consideration and she wouldn't get ~6k a month in free money from welfare and they would cut off the free medical assistance she gets. If that happened they wouldn't have any money left for 50" plasmas and 10 dollar coffee's. I'll let her know you're sending a check.

that exactly why the bill forces her to buy the insurance- do you think that people like that don't piss me off?

 

[sahtt]

it is very easy not to do anything for several decades and then criticise someone that actually had the balls to do something, good or bad (we'll see). in any event, the least we get out of this is the attention to the problem and maybe that will finally produce something.
historically, if one side does not want to compromise then the other side will force an outcome that is even more extreme and thats what we got.
we need to cut costs and frankly, middleman profits are the most glaring. and btw, your statistic od 0.4% profit for the insurance companies should be based only on the insurance companies' spending, not overall healthcare costs involving medicare and medicaid, prime example of molding statistical data to fit the argument.
i hope you will never have to become 'emotional' about healthcare, especially when you can afford it and are being fleeced just because they can. (in the real world people that cause accidents do not always survive to be sued for compensation).

The statistic shouldn't be anything, it simply is what it says. Whether or not you want to look up another statistic that fits your objectives is up to you. I didn't "mold" anything, I simply stated something you don't appear to like.

Once again, emotional appeals out to make me look insensitive to say the least. Just because I can discuss a matter with facts and realistic assertions does not mean I live in a castle and have never had any health or money problems. I've had my fair share of both; but that's never going to make me pick up a pitch fork and demand steveny's ferrari or justify a politician's poorly rendered policies.

 

[steveny]

that exactly why the bill forces her to buy the insurance- do you think that people like that don't piss me off?

With all due respect there is nothing that you or anyone can force her or millions of others like her to DO. It's not gonna happen, she isn't going to pay for something she has been getting for free.

I can't even get her to pick up an old mattress that has been laying in her back yard for the last year. So what happens, the same thing that will happen with health insurance. I have to pick up the mattress or the city fines ME not HER. That is the part of this new REFORM no one is getting. These people will be forced to do nothing and the rest of us will pay for it.

I think a lot of liberals don't have a clue how these people operate. I have seen liberals get into the rental business and they are like a deer in the headlights. They have no clue how underhanded and rotten other human being can be and how much time and effort those other people will put into making sure they pay for nothing. And as soon as you force them to pay they smash the windows out of your rental house and you end up paying anyways. These aren't stupid people. They are maniacal rotten thieves. They will steal the enamel off your teeth just to steal it so you don't have it anymore. I can't even tell you how many cupboards of FREE food I have thrown out that these people get for free and never use. They just took so no one else could have it. They never intended on using it.

 

[sahtt]

that exactly why the bill forces her to buy the insurance- do you think that people like that don't piss me off?

My guess is most people such as the one steve described will be receiving government credits in some form or fashion. If the government doesn't think she's able to earn any money and is living on the edge of absolute poverty, I don't see how that same government expects her to "find" 650$ to pay for health insurance. Not to mention if you have no income (or assets), any fees or fines are probably nothing more than a good joke.

 

[steveny]

The statistic shouldn't be anything, it simply is what it says. Whether or not you want to look up another statistic that fits your objectives is up to you. I didn't "mold" anything, I simply stated something you don't appear to like.

Once again, emotional appeals out to make me look insensitive to say the least. Just because I can discuss a matter with facts and realistic assertions does not mean I live in a castle and have never had any health or money problems. I've had my fair share of both; but that's never going to make me pick up a pitch fork and demand steveny's ferrari or justify a politician's poorly rendered policies.

Well someone gave it to me for free, you should have one too. I thought I saw you in line that day they were giving them out for free. Didn't you get your's? :biggrin:

 

[sahtt]

Well someone gave it to me for free, you should have one too. I thought I saw you in line that day they were giving them out for free. Didn't you get your's? :biggrin:

Damn, I think I was at work or working on my quarterly taxes. Should have known better.

 

[steveny]

My guess is most people such as the one steve described will be receiving government credits in some form or fashion. If the government doesn't think she's able to earn any money and is living on the edge of absolute poverty, I don't see how that same government expects her to "find" 650$ to pay for health insurance. Not to mention if you have no income (or assets), any fees or fines are probably nothing more than a good joke.

BINGO! Judgments to these people are like a drop of rain in a monsoon.

What this bill is going to do is put the cost of Medicare, Medicaid over on the middle class.

I have not seen someone in poverty in my entire adult life. No running water, no electricity, no phone, eating soup that was made from leeks out of woods, walking 5 miles to the store...that's poverty and that is how I grew up. Welfare would have instilled complacency not work ethic. Poverty is an outdated word. When some on gov. assistance has a cell phone they are experiencing poverty, and could be answering calls for 3 bucks an hour like truly poverty stricken people in India do. But Noooooo they're too good for that. They want to make 100k a year with no skills and no investment or risk on their part and then they want to pass judgment on people who do make 100k a year like the 100k a year fell out of the sky.

 

[steveny]

Damn, I think I was at work or working on my quarterly taxes. Should have known better.

That's alright they are giving out Lambo's next month. See you there.

 

[swerve2007]

The statistic shouldn't be anything, it simply is what it says. Whether or not you want to look up another statistic that fits your objectives is up to you. I didn't "mold" anything, I simply stated something you don't appear to like.

i simply stated your statistical quote is incorrect- you cannot pool all expenses together in an effort to minimize one side's profits- you can only compare the insurance companies spending by themselves to derive the percentage- using medicaid and medicare in the statistical pool artificially lowers the profit margin.

anyway, 'free-market' approach to healhcare will not ever work, nobody will voluntarily give up profits and thats the case i am making- don't tell me i am supporting deadbeats etc. as thats not the case. no matter how you try to portray this, government control is coming in some fashion- it is up to you to become part of the solution as well to influence the issue.

 

[swerve2007]

BINGO! Judgments to these people are like a drop of rain in a monsoon.

What this bill is going to do is put the cost of Medicare, Medicaid over on the middle class.

I have not seen someone in poverty in my entire adult life. No running water, no electricity, no phone, eating soup that was made from leeks out of woods, walking 5 miles to the store...that's poverty and that is how I grew up. Welfare would have instilled complacency not work ethic. Poverty is an outdated word. When some on gov. assistance has a cell phone they are experiencing poverty, and could be answering calls for 3 bucks an hour like truly poverty stricken people in India do. But Noooooo they're too good for that. They want to make 100k a year with no skills and no investment or risk on their part and then they want to pass judgment on people who do make 100k a year like the 100k a year fell out of the sky.

and how do you propose you solve this issue? cut them off cold turkey? i wish we could do that.

 

[steveny]

and how do you propose you solve this issue? cut them off cold turkey? i wish we could do that.

Yes, cold turkey. They also better hope they raise good kids to take care of them when they get old. And if they have to start paying for their decisions their decisions will start to get a lot better for them and society as a whole.

My family never had health insurance. We never had Medicaid either. My mother paid the doctor for every visit and we were careful to only go if we needed it. The doctor knew this and charged us a reasonable fee. My mother would have to clean houses for days to afford a doctor visit. We knew this and respected the cost. You think some welfare deadbeat would clean houses, LOL. They don't even clean their own house. Cleaning someone else's house would be way beneath them.

 

[Texas91Brent]

We should all get a bullshit job at HomeDepot and get in line for free shit....:wink:

I have my own company, small but its mine. I am being punished for trying to better my financial situation, and not suck off the system....My wife said maybe we should cut back work, because the brains in the white house will end up wanting 80% in taxes.......I think as long as Obama is in charge, we are all fucked......

P.S. By "Obama" I mean democrats.......We all know he's not really in charge.....

 

[sahtt]

i simply stated your statistical quote is incorrect-

2+2=4. Acura sold the Acura NSX from 1991 -2005. All health insurance company profits make up 0.4% of medical expenditures in the United States. All the above are true. What do you mean I "can't" do something, I just did it. It's a fact. If you don't like it, too bad, 2+2 still = 4.

 

[SilverStone05]

i
anyway, 'free-market' approach to healhcare will not ever work, nobody will voluntarily give up profits and thats the case i am making- don't tell me i am supporting deadbeats etc. as thats not the case. no matter how you try to portray this, government control is coming in some fashion- it is up to you to become part of the solution as well to influence the issue.

Wow.

Free market will work. The second the people who don't pay aren't allowed access to healthcare the cost will PLUNGE. But folks can't be turned away because of the Government mandates and laws. Therefore, those who can pay end up paying for everyone else.

Lastly - You sound like you are gloating...as if you've won some personal battle.

Party before country eh?

I never understood that and I'm a poor immigrant's son.

 

[SilverStone05]

2+2=4. Acura sold the Acura NSX from 1991 -2005. All health insurance company profits make up 0.4% of medical expenditures in the United States. All the above are true. What do you mean I "can't" do something, I just did it. It's a fact. If you don't like it, too bad, 2+2 still = 4.

Odd - every liberal I know gets REALLY flustered when someone brings facts and figures into the discussion.

Don't worry sahtt, most of us can do 1st grade math.

 

[nsxotic911]

Ditto to everything SteveNy and sahht have been saying.

 

[steveny]

Wow.

Free market will work. The second the people who don't pay aren't allowed access to healthcare the cost will PLUNGE.

Dead on balls accurate.

 

[swerve2007]

Wow.

Free market will work. The second the people who don't pay aren't allowed access to healthcare the cost will PLUNGE. But folks can't be turned away because of the Government mandates and laws. Therefore, those who can pay end up paying for everyone else.

Lastly - You sound like you are gloating...as if you've won some personal battle.

Party before country eh?

I never understood that and I'm a poor immigrant's son.

what party? gloating? have you read my posts?
i live in phoenix- want to come down and see our emergency rooms? do you speak spanish?
you guys still don't get it- if all you do is sit on your ass and complain then laws like these will pass- republicans had the chance to address the issue- they did not so democrats did it their way- now nobody wins.
free-market will never work because nobody will let people die on the doorstep of the hospital, no matter what you do and how much you complain.

 

[swerve2007]

Odd - every liberal I know gets REALLY flustered when someone brings facts and figures into the discussion.

Don't worry sahtt, most of us can do 1st grade math.

really, you apparently subscribe to 'fox news' statistics.

let me put it in simpler terms for you- your nsx had 5k worth of warranty work done paid by acura- you spent only $100- does this mean that your nsx only had $100 work done? don't think so.

mr. sahht is building his case out of a quote that is completely misplaced and you are not getting it either.

you can only compare the insurance profits in terms of %$ only when looked at total insurance spending only- not building in medicare and medicaid spending as that decreases the percentage erroneously.

say 90% of healhcare spending is medicare/medicaid and 10% insurance companies- the % profit of the insurance is the profit of 10 procent spending, not 100. each insurance company still makes billions.

edit: you think i am a liberal, lol? sadly i used to call myself a republican until the idiots in washington decided to 'boycott' the discussions and handed it all to democrats. i am a realist, not a whiner.

 

[steveny]

nobody will let people die on the doorstep of the hospital,

Well at least not until someone is dispatched to their residence and finds a wad of 100's from their weed operation and a 65" plasma hanging on the wall.

Kind of reminds me of the guy I know of that (right from his lips) has 70k in the bank and took it out because he didn't want to pay for his 11k emergency surgery on his appendix. Better to screw the doctors out of their pay then to man up and pay your bills.

OR

Maybe the tenant that just got 250k$ after her dad died and she blew it all in a month so she wouldn't have to pay her judgments or future medical bills along with crap loads from the past. She was also kind enough to stiff me on a 500$ water bill. That's fine as long as she has a brush guard for her truck I guess. What would the economy be without these spenders? I know what it'd be like and it's why things are kept the way they are. Me if I had gotten the 500$ for the water bill I wouldn't have blown it on a brush guard for a leased truck I would have SAVED it.... and that's not good for the economy!

 

[swerve2007]

Well at least not until someone is dispatched to their residence and finds a wad of 100's from their weed operation and a 65" plasma hanging on the wall.

Kind of reminds me of the guy I know of that (right from his lips) has 70k in the bank and took it out because he didn't want to pay for his 11k emergency surgery on his appendix. Better to screw the doctors out of their pay then to man up and pay your bills.

OR

Maybe the tenant that just got 250k$ after her dad died and she blew it all in a month so she wouldn't have to pay her judgments or future medical bills along with crap loads from the past. She was also kind enough to stiff me on a 500$ water bill. That's fine as long as she has a brush guard for her truck I guess. What would the economy be without these spenders? I know what it'd be like and it's why things are kept the way they are. Me if I had gotten the 500$ for the water bill I wouldn't have blown it on a brush guard for a leased truck I would have SAVED it.... and that's not good for the economy!

couldn't agree more, the law shouldn't allow this kind of manipulation.
you know what you can do? report the deadbeat mom with 9 kids and a live-in boyfriend, you are the landlord, you can prove they live together etc. and get her welfare diminished- it is in your hands too.

edit:
lesson to be learned- when you are in control, take care of the problems, don't sweep them under the rug and complain somebody else got it wrong.

 

[swerve2007]

Once again, emotional appeals out to make me look insensitive to say the least. Just because I can discuss a matter with facts and realistic assertions does not mean I live in a castle and have never had any health or money problems. I've had my fair share of both; but that's never going to make me pick up a pitch fork and demand steveny's ferrari or justify a politician's poorly rendered policies.

obviously we are talking about it for the sake of conversation and even though the concensus is that all the benefactors of the new bill are related to steveny's tenants :wink: i am simply showing you that there is a very large number of people that are adversely affected for reasons completely unrelated to the poor lifestyle choices.
btw, inurance companies' profits range in 4-6% of gross 'sales', not high percentage wise but still in billions per medium organization. and yes, they are lower than drug companies' profits etc.
if we could only keep people from getting old and dying then maybe we could fix the medicare too.

 

[NSXLuvr]

*Bias Alert* - I am a Physician.

I think the bill has a couple of positive points. The fact that an insurance company can't deny your care due to a preexisting illness is a good thing IMHO. Most people switch jobs and insurance companies in their lifetime so having a preexisting illness could be potentially catastrophic. Other than that --- Well I can't think of another good point.:biggrin: Well - maybe the ER's won't lose/spend as much money on neglected medical conditions IF(thats a BIG IF) the newly insured actually go get preventive care for their chronic medical illnesses.

Lets looks at the big picture:

1. If you getting "free health care(going to ER when you are sick)" today then why would you sign up for health insurance. You would have to pay $$ to meet deductibles and have co - pays for office visits and medications. This was something you are used to getting for FREE!

2. Medicare and Medicaid will be expanded to cover more people. I don't take medicaid. I lose money on it. I try to limit my Medicare patient volume because I get paid very little to take care of the more complex patients. Yet I will paying more in Taxes and insurance premiums(see point 3) to expand this coverage. The Obama plan in the long run plans to reduce Medicare compensation to physicians/medical facilities. Basically in the long run I am paying more in taxes, premiums etc while getting paid LESS for treating the elderly/more complex patient.

3. Insurance companies have to make profit. They are a business afterall. The people supporting the Obama plan say they are tired of insurance companies screwing americans(I'm paraphrasing obviously). That is why pelosi has been pushing this plan. Yet - IMHO the insurance companies benefit the most. They potentially have 30-40 million new clients that HAVE TO SIGN up for insurance. Some of these people are going to be high risk clients so the insurance companies will transfer their increased costs to the rest of their insured clients(you and me). In addition, The Ins. Co. have to uncap lifetime medical benefits and limit what they can deny. All that means is that we(already insured) will be paying more premiums!

4. Regarding the gov't option: The gov't already has 2 options. Medicaid and Medicare - both are complete disasters. I don't really think a 3rd option will be any better.

just my 2 cents.

P.S. - Steve please let me know when you are giving out another Ferrari. I love TDF blue!:biggrin:

 

[steveny]

*Bias Alert* - I am a Physician.

I think the bill has a couple of positive points. The fact that an insurance company can't deny your care due to a preexisting illness is a good thing IMHO. Most people switch jobs and insurance companies in their lifetime so having a preexisting illness could be potentially catastrophic. Other than that --- Well I can't think of another good point.:biggrin: Well - maybe the ER's won't lose/spend as much money on neglected medical conditions IF(thats a BIG IF) the newly insured actually go get preventive care for their chronic medical illnesses.

Lets looks at the big picture:

1. If you getting "free health care(going to ER when you are sick)" today then why would you sign up for health insurance. You would have to pay $$ to meet deductibles and have co - pays for office visits and medications. This was something you are used to getting for FREE!

2. Medicare and Medicaid will be expanded to cover more people. I don't take medicaid. I lose money on it. I try to limit my Medicare patient volume because I get paid very little to take care of the more complex patients. Yet I will paying more in Taxes and insurance premiums(see point 3) to expand this coverage. The Obama plan in the long run plans to reduce Medicare compensation to physicians/medical facilities. Basically in the long run I am paying more in taxes, premiums etc while getting paid LESS for treating the elderly/more complex patient.

3. Insurance companies have to make profit. They are a business afterall. The people supporting the Obama plan say they are tired of insurance companies screwing americans(I'm paraphrasing obviously). That is why pelosi has been pushing this plan. Yet - IMHO the insurance companies benefit the most. They potentially have 30-40 million new clients that HAVE TO SIGN up for insurance. Some of these people are going to be high risk clients so the insurance companies will transfer their increased costs to the rest of their insured clients(you and me). In addition, The Ins. Co. have to uncap lifetime medical benefits and limit what they can deny. All that means is that we(already insured) will be paying more premiums!

4. Regarding the gov't option: The gov't already has 2 options. Medicaid and Medicare - both are complete disasters. I don't really think a 3rd option will be any better.

just my 2 cents.

P.S. - Steve please let me know when you are giving out another Ferrari. I love TDF blue!:biggrin:

Awesome post.


I---------- see------------ a---------------- loophole...Maaaaybe.


Pay the fine and have no insurance. The insurance companies can't deny pre-existing conditions? So don't bother getting insurance until you're really sick, pay for all other visits out of you pocket.

 

[SilverStone05]

Awesome post.


I---------- see------------ a---------------- loophole...Maaaaybe.


Pay the fine and have no insurance. The insurance companies can't deny pre-existing conditions? So don't bother getting insurance until you're really sick.....

ding ding ding ding.....we have a winner.

Adverse selection. Watch your premiums skyrocket.

You've been hanging around your tenants too long, Steve.