Hans?

BioBanker

BioBanker

Legendary Member
Joined
15 October 2002
Messages
4,798
Location
West Vancouver
To add fuel to a never ending debate.

Ive tracked my 02 targa a fair bit, which I expect will continue, albeit probably to a lesser extent.

As Ive gotten faster, my concern about the safety of my car has increased. I have installed the SOS harness bar and a 5pt harnesses. I dont use them all the time and occasionally an instructor will recommend that I not use them; while that person is in the car, Ill use the stock belt.

I believe that Im lapping fast enough right now that I should think about a HANS.

My question is will the HANS further compromise my position via a roll over, or is it about even with my current situation.

I really wish that someone would put something together that provided increased rollover protection and worked with the harness bar.
 
BioBanker said:
I have installed the SOS harness bar and a 5pt harnesses. I dont use them all the time and occasionally an instructor will recommend that I not use them; while that person is in the car, Ill use the stock belt.
Click to expand...

Did this instructor give you a reason why you should not use the 5-pt? Is a targa prone to having the roof crush in a rollover?
 
Its an ongoing debate whether harness should be used in a car without a cage, or at minimum, supplemented roll over protection.

The general feeling here seems to be that the coupe cars are likely okay as they are (unsubstantiated) while the targa cars are less likely to be okay (also unsubstantiated).

It is very grey -do a search. You will find hundreds of posts on this and it is not my intention to revive that debate. Im wondering if the HANS makes it way worse.
 
Re: Just do it.

it is not my intention to revive that debate.
Click to expand...
Uuhhhhh, I think you just did. :biggrin:

Hey BB, I followed the great debate several years ago and here's my take: Get the HANS and wear the 5 point for these reasons;

1. It will be your best protection in ____ % (pick a number; I pick 95) of your most likely accident scenarios.
2. Planning on being able to actively "duck" or react quick enough to avoid the thump on the top of your helmet during a rollover is ridiculous. You don't have the time or awareness of where you are and when the thump on the head will occur. Now it might be argued that you may have your head pushed down passively in a slow rollover, but I'm not so sure; you've got your full body weight trying to make your head meet the roof (or ground).
3. With the helmet/HANS mating configuration, The HANS may actually take the load off your spine and transfer it to the shoulders. Just speculation, like most of this debate.

And a point of clarification for anyone new to this debate: tracking your car more (faster and in a higher run group) does add more risk perhaps, only because you are probably at more risk of losing control. A lethal head-on accident can occur at 30 mph with full harness restraint. This obviously can occur at the novice level as well, so it's not that you're going faster, it's that your much closer to "the limit."

As for the instructor not wanting you to wear the shoulder belts, one reason may be that without the HANS, you are setting yourself up for a basil skull fracture more so than with stock belts which lets the body move forward (follow the head, if you will). And allowing the airbag to contribute if you still have it.

Anyway, tough call on the H&N device in a streetable (non cage) car, because you're always trading one risk for another. So a guy should figure in the percentages as well as the ultimate worst case results.

Well there are other reasons and we'll be reminded of those all too soon now.

Let us know what you decide.
 
Hmmph. I think too much depends on track layout, speeds, etc... to say online in any informative way. Good job on thinking about your safety thou!!!

As Ted mentioned obviously the closer you are operating to the limit is pretty key- as it poses the highest degree of risk of stepping over your bounds and ending up on your roof. While most HPDE run-group traffic is relatively slow, course layout also plays it's part in end roll-over risk. A course with drastic elevation changes, decreasing radius turns, or poor run-off terrain, etc... can all greatly add to the roll over risk as well. Couple yourself and other drivers that might make the wrong correction/recovery at the wrong time, and bad roll overs can and do happen from time to time under the most innocuous of circumstances.

In an HPDE run group context... this has been debated till the cows came home many times. So far as setup... for general tracking, overall for the summer personally I'd still feel a lot safer being restrained with a well installed 5-6pt on a harness bar in a competition seat over the stock seat, bags, and belts. If you are still using the stock seats... not as compelling IMO. Especially with the harnesses and hans it can be made to work, but IMO not well. I tried this years back and never liked it one bit. Most don't think of seats as a safety item, but they play their part too.

Bottom line- yes it would be rare indeed to see a multi roll-over whereas your targa NSX chassis deflected to the extent that it became an issue transferring a load to your neck during the accident directly due to not having a roll bar/cage. I think the chances of a really bad roll over occurring is always pretty slim, and other types of incidents would be a higher priority even in a targa NSX. For example, a $25 window net or arm restraint so you don't put an arm out.

However, safety isn't about that. It is about planning for the worst and hoping for the best. Enthusiasts are inherently risk takers, but this isn't a numbers game you want to lose. Thus...

Personally- I can't say for sure but I'm pretty certain sled testing would show that the stock setup performs significantly better than a poor or otherwise half setup active restraint system all around, and to me it seems a lot better to replace safety systems as a whole instead of snagging bits and pieces here or there. It thus wouldn't hurt at the minimum to change over to a roll bar and seat and thus eliminate the concern when you can. If budget was key I would have taken those other items before the hans. A local shop could weld you up an effective main roll hoop and you can pickup a seat second hand for as low as $200.

In the end, everyone has to take their own life into their own hands and decide what is safe enough for them.

I can't speak for that instructor. I've revived a local back-room debate not long ago about fire suites of all things. I think that due to the increasingly stringent insurance requirements/lingo, a minority of club organizers are getting shy over too many students being slightly too well prepped at HPDE's as well. :wink:
 
John@Microsoft said:
Personally- I can't say for sure but I'm pretty certain sled testing would show that the stock setup performs significantly better than a poor or otherwise half setup active restraint system all around, and to me it seems a lot better to replace safety systems as a whole instead of snagging bits and pieces here or there. It thus wouldn't hurt at the minimum to change over to a roll bar and seat and thus eliminate the concern when you can. If budget was key I would have taken those other items before the hans. A local shop could weld you up an effective main roll hoop and you can pickup a seat second hand for as low as $200.
Click to expand...

Can they? Ive asked around here a lot if that kind of thing was possible, but ended up with believing that it was not. I have the impression that short of getting a full cage installed into my car, I have no options. Is that not correct?
 
Re: Rollover protection

I have the impression that short of getting a full cage installed into my car, I have no options.
Click to expand...
I may be all wet because I wasn't paying much attention to race setups 5 years ago, but it seems to me Chris at SOS was experimenting with some protection short of a full cage. You might talk to him for ideas.
 
Re: Rollover protection

I believe Comptech may have had something as well. There is a section on the web site showing how to install a roll bar. Interesting way of doing it.

Next year PCA will not allow 4 point harnesses and a 5 or 6 point must be used with a seat with the holes installed by the manufacturer. I think they are trying to get away from the articulated seats.

I wouldn't use a 5/6 point without a Hans. And if you go with a Hans I'd spend some time practicing getting out of the car with it on. Really important if you have a cage. I was amazed the first time I tried to get out of my full caged car with the Hans on.
 
BioBanker said:
Can they? Ive asked around here a lot if that kind of thing was possible, but ended up with believing that it was not. I have the impression that short of getting a full cage installed into my car, I have no options. Is that not correct?
Click to expand...

Not sure what the problem would be. Just do a basic roll hoop out of DOM. As rules have become more of an issue with some clubs, the 2K marketplace guys had a group buy on one this past year and got the price down for themselves.

Comptech had one for awhile for the NSX that was a fairly nice design which included 4 points and basic removable door bars as Alan mentioned. Installation PDF was here. The last I saw one I believe was in Wilson's whitey back in 01' and for the price it was adequate and much nicer than their harness bar IMO.

If you don't want a full cage for street-ability reasons then really all you minimally need is a good mild steel roll hoop with proper anchor & backing plates. Any competent race prep shop should be able to fabricate you one for a fairly reasonable price. All are going to be bolt-in as the chassis is aluminum so it really comes down to features and difficulty of the design you choose.

The trick is finding someone that does chassis race prep work... that you trust their work and is good to do business with. Asking around with local racers in your area would be the ticket. Someone up by you must do that type of work reasonably. All I can offer is that it is rather like quotes on paint jobs. You walk in with a civic and you get a good quote. You walk in with a late model 911 and you better have brought your check book. :cool:

Now is the busiest time of year for most race shops. Do what I did when I did my cage work. Do your research now, be willing to help out with the assembly work, then for that type of work hit them up during the off-season when it slows down and you'll be gold.
 
John gives good advice on quotes. I took my 993 in for a cage and the guy gave me a low quote to get into the PCA club race group in my area. When I went to pick up the car the price had more than doubled. Nothing like arguing with a guy about your car in his shop, get it in writing!
 
I'm installing (with the help of my Acura mech.) a harness bar from SoS, but with a 6-point harness. Can I asssume you used stock seats? If you have any suggestions about the installation, we'd appreciate them. Thanks.
 
flyn2Lo48 said:
I'm installing (with the help of my Acura mech.) a harness bar from SoS, but with a 6-point harness. Can I asssume you used stock seats? If you have any suggestions about the installation, we'd appreciate them. Thanks.
Click to expand...

If you are doing stock seats, here is a sub bar:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85880

Make sure you cut a hole in the bottom of the seat, don't just flop the belt over the front!
 
As far as the Hans is concerned, I use mine in my coupe(no roll bar) and feel the added protection is far out weighed by any potential dangers from a roll over. The majority of the accidents I have seen on HPDE's are impacts where the car stays mostly on 4 wheels. Pretty rare to see a car upside down, and I trust Honda has designed 'good enough' roll over protection for most situations. I am more concerned about the potential neck injury from an impact with a wall or other car, especially after 2 spine surgeries over the last 6 years...

IMO a Hans is cheap insurance, not bad to deal with once you get the hang of it too...
 
titaniumdave said:
I am more concerned about the potential neck injury from an impact with a wall or other car, especially after 2 spine surgeries over the last 6 years...
Click to expand...

What a WUSS :biggrin: whats a few SPINE injures between friends.....

And you keep emphisizing NOT to flop the front belt over the seat.........IS that how you got that MONO-BALL in your Sig? :tongue:
 
I'm with Dave on the Titanium parts, 3rd time

Back Resize_1.jpg
 
Those are some of the most expenive screws you will ever buy:wink:
 
That's one expensive woman!

Biobanker, I'm heading for Toronto and Montreal again this week. Hope you guys are having good weather.
 
Over on Trackpedia there was this chronology of restraint evolution.

We talked with the local PCA group about the history of safety equipment before.

Stage 1. No belts
Everybody dies :smile:

Stage 2. Lap belt
Back breaks above hips and you're paralyzed from the hips down.

Stage 3. 3 pt belt
Back breaks between shoulder leaving paralysis from neck down.

Stage 4. 4 pt belt
Submarining crushes internal organs with lap belt

Stage 5. 3 pt belt + Air bag
Air bag helps a lot but head still wants to move left or right

Stage 6. 5/6pt belt
Body very restrained but basal skull fractures because head is now moving attached to neck.

Stage 7. Polyster belts with 6pt
Hardly any stretch makes neck injuries worse as more relative energy goes to head as body moves less.

Stage 8. H&N + 5/6 pt belts
No body movement and controlled head movement but helmet chin strap ultimately slows down head inside helmet when helmet strikes chest in an impact. SFI rated products should protect driver to very high G level impacts, so long as the car doesn't deform and kill you, you'll likely survive most incidents.

This is the progression as explained to us by various groups researching the topic. I'd love Greg Baker (designed the Issac H&N) or Trevor from LFT (on the indy car safety board) to chime in here. At the end of the day a well designed safety system is whats needed. A 3pt belt with airbag is a solution designed as a system. Simply installing harnesses in a road car isn't a complete system and may put you in more danger than a 'properly' installed solution.
Click to expand...

That sums it pretty well.

Anyone too surprised that cracks in HANS are just now reaching the media?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news...=ap-nascar-richmondnotebook&prov=ap&type=lgns

How's that different than a cracked helmet that did it's job?
 
92 white 0650 said:
Over on Trackpedia there was this chronology of restraint evolution.



That sums it pretty well.

Anyone too surprised that cracks in HANS are just now reaching the media?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news...=ap-nascar-richmondnotebook&prov=ap&type=lgns

How's that different than a cracked helmet that did it's job?
Click to expand...

There's nothing new about a HANS device that cracks on impact. It's doing it's job, absorbing energy. And if it is cracked, you'd better get a new one, not try to reuse it.
 
Update:

I picked up a HANS (and was happy to NOT NEED it yesterday at Mosport) and have located a guy who can almost certainly whip up some rollover protection for my car.
 
Re: Economy model for pencil necks

JK about that post title. :biggrin: Rumor has it that HANS is coming out with a "Sport Series" model, whatever that means, for $695. Logically they'll start with the 20 degree. It'll be a tad heavier. Anyway, just right for tin-tops. And just in time for your Christmas sleigh !! :tongue:

One thing, though, their PR writers should be more sensitive about words like "breakthrough" don't ya think?
 

Similar threads

FSFNSX
3 piece bolt in harness bar with belts FS
Replies
2
Views
208
Dingelnutzz22
D
S
speaker amps question
Replies
5
Views
191
SoulC
S
asylum
Tips on suspension settings
Replies
5
Views
1K
Track Addict
Track Addict
TANTO
6 SPD W/4.23 PLEASE
Replies
3
Views
386
Honcho
Honcho
jsullyboy
Low Engine Power before 4k RPM
2
Replies
29
Views
777
NSX78__
NSX78__
Back
Top