F1 2009 megathread

[NSXrebel]

Ouch, I didn't think it did that much damage...but I guess it was a piece of metal that hit him at a high rate of speed. Hope he gets better quickly.

It was a spring that fell off of Rubens' car. Watch the video again, RB is no where to be seen when Massa was hit. Shows how fast these cars are going, and how much inertia an object can carry.

 

[cojones]

Massa's crash in qualifying this morning was pretty bad - nose-first into the tire barrier at 120 mph. Kinda brought back memories of Imola in 1994.

Hopefully he recovers OK...

############

on another note, a lot of "silly season" rumors going around:
- Alonso to Ferrari
- Kimi back to McLaren
- Hamo to Brawn ?

 

[NSXrebel]

We don't need no Hambone at Brawn. Alonso would be the better choice, but some are saying he is going to SF.

 

[NSXLuvr]

Watching the video of Massa's helmet strike was quite painful!

I hope he recovers quickly!

What a crazy year. Brawn looks like they are getting weaker as the season goes on while RB and coming on strong!

 

[69XSN]

Well done Lewis, Kimi and Glock, sorry Vettel and Alonso. Best of luck to Massa. This season is turning out to be a rather good mix. Better luck next time Brawn. Again, excellent drive Lewis.
Anthony

 

[Miner]

What a crazy year. Brawn looks like they are getting weaker as the season goes on while RB and coming on strong!

I think Brawn's modest size (and small budget) is beginning to slow the car's improvement. As noted by Matchett, the cars get faster throughout the season and the big teams (McLaren and Renault) have been able to improve their cars more than Brawn.

 

[passline]

Our prayers go out to Felipe, a great driver and person.

 

[cojones]

Our prayers go out to Felipe, a great driver and person.

absolutely... we had to pleasure to meet him in Maranello in early 2005, as part of a factory owners' club tour. He was still an up-and-coming test driver - a quite, nice guy eating lunch in the corner.

Our prayers for a speedy recovery, Felipe...

 

[ChopsJazz]

Our prayers go out to Felipe, a great driver and person.

Yes, all the best to Massa. Of all the luck, that accident could not have been any more unlucky.

 

[ak]

I don't get the penalty for Renault for dropping a wheel...they are banned from the next race? That seems way harsh.

And what was up with them showing Nicole Shrezinger every other min? I mean, it's not bad to look at but weren't we trying to watch a race?

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: FIA reaction to recent accidents

I don't get the penalty for Renault for dropping a wheel...they are banned from the next race? That seems way harsh.

Agreed. However, given the unfortunate, coincidental timing of the Surtees accident with a loose wheel and then Massa's accident with the spring coming off the Brawn, my cynical belief is they have reacted politically in a way that the non-racing press would accept/expect/applaud. Accidents of these types are rare, but "we" (the world) have come to expect zero risk, not just very low risk of death/dismemberment.

Guys on my formula car forums are talking about the many things that have hit them in the head including birds, so the risk is there but the injuries are typically minor. Of course our speed is considerabley lower than F-1.

One other piece of trivia relates to the European standards and a recent discussion with my friend Gib, the chief engineer at the Snell Institute. He was telling me how the European standards are different; IIRC, Snell app'd helmets would have taken this strike much better. I'll follow up on that.

 

[Ponyboy]

Tedroe, you hit the nail on the head. This is an overreaction to recent events and the FIA is looking to appear progressive. Granted safety is paramount but the punishment of Renault is unproportional.

 

[Miner]

Tedroe, you hit the nail on the head. This is an overreaction to recent events and the FIA is looking to appear progressive. Granted safety is paramount but the punishment of Renault is unproportional.

I believe the reason for the harsh punishment is that the team was aware the wheel was loose (or retaining pin not secured), but failed to tell Alonso, even after he radioed the pit thinking he had a tire problem. As Matchett likes to call them, "The Sporting Regulations" indicate there is an element of sportsmenship involved.

Miner

 

[Ponyboy]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77379

Doctor reveal Massa's left eye damaged

Doctors say it is too early to judge whether Felipe Massa will race again after it was revealed on Monday that the Brazilian suffered damage to his left eye in his Hungarian Grand Prix crash.

Massa is still in hospital recovering from a skull fracture and concussion after he was hit in the face by a spring from Rubens Barrichello's car.

Local media quoted the hospital's professor Robert Veres from Budapest as saying that the eye injury could be enough to end Massa's F1 career.

"He has suffered some damage to the eye," said Veres. "We don't know whether he'll be able to race again."

The AEK hospital in Budapest is scheduled to hold a press conference this evening to update the media on Massa's injuries.

The spring struck Massa just above his left eye, smashing his helmet and fracturing his skull.

Doctors also confirmed on Monday that the operation that was conducted on Saturday afternoon saved Massa's life.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo visited Massa in hospital on Monday.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Fred to Ferrari for sure

Now the question is, will they even wait til Monza to announce it? Fred might be thinking, "lawsuits and Flavio be damned, I'm hoppin' in that seat NOW." :biggrin: What are the odds Rebel?

 

[JohnJW]

This sucks for Massa:frown: I was hoping his outlook was better.

 

[Dr.Honda]

Dave Despain made some good points about safety in motorsports last night. Basically, would mean an end to open-wheel racing as we know it. As badly as I feel for Massa, I think the press and governing bodies are over-reacting to this incident. It was a freak accident, just as DaMatta's incident w/ the deer at Road America a few years back was.
That said, I hope he makes a full and speedy recovery...

 

[Dr.Honda]

Ted,
Please follow up on your comment re the differing standards between the Snell and other rating systems...
Would be interesting to know how our helmets are tested against projectiles..
Jim

 

[NSXrebel]

Re: Fred to Ferrari for sure

Now the question is, will they even wait til Monza to announce it? Fred might be thinking, "lawsuits and Flavio be damned, I'm hoppin' in that seat NOW." :biggrin: What are the odds Rebel?

Well Sarah Palin is running for FIA president, I'm sure she can make it happen most ricky tick.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: SNELL Foundation standards

Ted,
Please follow up on your comment re the differing standards between the Snell and other rating systems...
Would be interesting to know how our helmets are tested against projectiles..
Jim

From the SNELL website: http://www.smf.org/standards/2005/sak2005/sa_k2005_final.html

E6. Shell Penetration Test

The shell penetration test may be applied to helmets kept at laboratory ambient temperature and humidity or helmets conditioned hot, cold-cycle or wet. At least one helmet sample shall be tested in shell penetration. The complete helmet shall be placed on a rigidly mounted headform. The test headform for the penetration test need not be the standard ISO headform shape used in the impact testing and helmet marking. It is expected only that the device used will provide reasonable support for the helmet and conformance with the interior of the helmet immediately beneath the site of the penetration test. If the helmet contains a sling or some other adjustable sizing component, it shall be relaxed to its most extendable position.

The penetration test striker shall have a mass of 3 kg ±50 g. The striker shall fall through a height of 3 m ±15 mm. The point of the striker shall be a cone with an included angle of 60° ±0.5° and an altitude of 38 ±0.38 mm. The striking tip shall have a hardness of 60 Rockwell (scale C ±3 points) and a radius of .5 ±.01 mm.

The test striker may be directed at any site on or above the test line but the penetration test site must be at least 7.5 cm removed from the center of any impact test site or any other penetration test site. At the test technician’s discretions, samples may be tested at more than one site on the shell.

For all penetration tests performed, the test striker must not penetrate to achieve even momentary contact with the test headform.

And the face shield

E7. Face Shield Penetration Test

If a face shield is provided with a full face helmet, this face shield shall be tested for penetration resistance in the following manner:

The faceshield shall be tested on the appropriate helmet, correctly deployed across the facial opening and under laboratory ambient conditions. A soft lead pellet weighing 1 ± 0.1 g with a diameter of 5.5 ± 0.1 mm and travelling at a velocity of 500 ± 20 km per hour shall strike the face shield normal to the surface. The face shield shall be tested in at least three different locations: the center line and 80 ± 5 mm to either side of the center line. The pellet must not penetrate to the interior of the helmet nor produce an indentation exceeding 2.5 mm as measured from the interior surface of the face shield.

I think there are some pictures of the test equipment on the website too. If not, some of us got the private tour one Saturday a couple of years ago and took a bunch of pictures as well, but I'd have to dig those up.

Edit: As for my previous speculation, I think I was premature on the European standards being a factor in this projectile type issue. I know the differences had mostly to do with the liner and how the helmet performed under impact testing, not penetration testing.

 

[Dr.Honda]

Thanks Ted, the testing is clearly nothing like the speed that must have been involved w/ the Massa projectile...

 

[Jetpilot3]

Have any of you seen the pictures of Massa's injuries? Its quite shocking how much that spring penetrated his helmet but of course the speed at which he collided with it was high (not even braking zone). Search the internet and you can see and actually CNN showed the photos on World Sport last night...

Hope he recovers to return to F1!!!

 

[Hugh]

Its quite shocking how much that spring penetrated his helmet but of course the speed at which he collided with it was high (not even braking zone)

Ouchie!

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: If you like numbers..........

Thanks Ted, the testing is clearly nothing like the speed that must have been involved w/ the Massa projectile...

From F-1 Fanatic

The stories of Massa’s accident three days have been everywhere. But how much do we really understand about how hard a blow Massa suffered when he was struck by that spring?

F1 Fanatic guest writer Kareem Shaya tries to put the crash into perspective.

In all the discussion of Felipe Massa’s qualifying accident at the Hungarian Grand Prix, there have been few real efforts to quantify what happened. Massa was hit hard enough to be knocked out and suffer a fractured skull, and that’s essentially all we know. So let’s figure it out. How bad is it, exactly, if an 800-gram coil spring hits you in the head at 160 mph?

The punch it packs is worse than being shot. Bullets are deadly because they penetrate the body, but in terms of kinetic energy, most don’t hold a candle to what hit Massa.

Below is a list of kinetic energies of common projectiles. The bullet energies assume point-blank range (and are calculated using numbers from Alpine Armoring). All the energies are calculated using the old kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2 formula you learned in school.

- 100 mph fastball from Nolan Ryan: 145 joules
- Barry Bonds’ swing (33 oz. bat at 70 mph): 458 joules
- 9mm handgun: 513 joules
- .44 Magnum handgun: 1,510 joules
- The spring that hit Massa (800 grams at 160 mph): 2,046 joules
- AK-47 (7.62mm round): 2,599 joules
- 12 gauge shotgun slug: 3,580 joules
- The wheel that killed Henry Surtees (an estimated 12 kg at 120 mph): 17,267 joules

Before we talk about those figures, it’s worth remembering that the Massa and Surtees accidents were real-world situations, and as such, the numbers above may be imprecise. Massa was moving at 160 mph, but if the spring was traveling at high speed in the same direction as his Ferrari, or if it ricocheted off of his car before striking him, the estimate of 2,046 joules will be too high. If, for instance, we change the spring’s collision speed to 120 mph, its kinetic energy drops about 44% to a still-frightening 1,151 joules. The same caveats apply to the figures on Henry Surtees’ accident. Please suggest any adjustments in the comments.

With that in mind, let’s consider the baseball examples. Bullets focus their energy on a tiny area, which is why they would penetrate something like a driver’s helmet. The contact patch of a baseball or a bat, by contrast, would be close to that of a coil spring, and that makes for some shocking comparisons.

By the numbers above, Massa would have been 14 times better off being hit by Nolan Ryan fastball. He would have been four times better off letting Barry Bonds take a full-force swing at his head. For that matter, in terms of sheer energy, he’d have been better off letting Barry Bonds hit him in the head at the same instant that someone shot him point-blank with Dirty Harry’s gun.

It’s simply incredible that a helmet can turn that into a survivable injury, but the massive energy of Henry Surtees’ accident — nearly five times that of a 12 gauge shotgun slug and more than eight times worse than the blow to Massa’s head — reminds us that there’s a limit to the protection that one or two inches of padding can provide. Being hit in the head with a wheel moving at race speeds is easily deadly, helmet or no helmet.

If the same thing causes a death in F1’s future, the result may well be a rush to implement closed cockpits. And if that day should come, let’s not pretend to have learned something we didn’t already know today. Cockpit covers may or may not make sense, but if we are against them now, we shouldn’t be waiting for a death to change our minds.

Update from Keith: We have had further good news about Massa’s condition today, including a quote from one doctor who confirmed the driver has now opened his left eye and can see. The doctor described it as “morphologically healthy”, indicating the eye is healthy and has integrity, with no tissue damage. This raises hopes that he may be able to return to the cockpit in the future.

 

[M-P]

Great article.

Here is another one with a Massa update...apparently he is making leaps and bounds with his recovery.

From F1-Live

Felipe Massa's personal doctor Dino Altman has countered reports the injured Ferrari driver's left eye was damaged in his crash during Hungarian GP qualifying.

The 28-year-old Brazilian is now out of coma and expected to walk out of hospital sometime next week with no long-term effects from his serious head injuries.

But the damage done to his left eye remains largely unknown, amid reports the optic nerve was affected when his helmet and visor were struck by an 800-gram steel damper spring at 275kph last Saturday afternoon.

An official of the AEK hospital on Tuesday is quoted by Italy's ANSA news agency as saying checks on the injured eye will only be able to be conducted "in a week to ten days, not before. <table align="left" border="0" bordercolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="5"> <tbody><tr><td valign="top" align="center"><table align="center" cellspacing="2"> <tbody><tr><td> <!-- begin ad tag (tile=2) --> <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"> document.write('<script language="JavaScript" src="http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/RL_F1_News/;tile=2;sz=300x250;kvlang=en;ord=' + ord + '?" type="text/javascript"><\/script>'); </script><script language="JavaScript" src="http://ad.doubleclick.net/adj/RL_F1_News/;tile=2;sz=300x250;kvlang=en;ord=4518815441126293?" type="text/javascript"></script><noscript></noscript> <!-- End ad tag --> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> "

But Massa's personal doctor, also attending at the AEK military hospital in central Budapest, insists: "His left eye has no problem, his eyesight is okay."

Massa's father Luiz Antonio said: "Felipe is better and better, I would not say from day to day but rather from hour to hour."