Engine speculations

[WingZ]

I agree with you, though you have to remember how Porsche is doing it compared to Honda. There were aluminum cars back in the 1980's, but they were essentially hand-made. Picture a grizzled old man with a silver mustache and leather overalls painstakingly bending and forming each body panel by hand. That is how Porsche builds supercars, along with McLaren, Ferarri, etc. They are hand-built craft projects, which is why they are so incredibly expensive. This is not the Honda Way. Instead, Honda used its engineering genius to find a way to apply mass production concepts and Japanese efficiency to these exotic materials and designs.

The engineers have four major areas to tackle to hit Ito's 3000 pound goal:

1. Powertrain --> Honda already knows how to lighten a J engine. For example, they shaved off 30 lbs for the J30A4 that was in my old 2004 Accord Coupe 6MT. Thus, the real engineering challenge is to keep the hyrbid portion from getting too fat. A dual clutch semi-auto trans is very heavy and complicated compared to a manual trans. Fortunately, Honda has been developing this system since at least 2008 for the failed HSV-10, so they have a lot of data. Similarly, they need to make the 3 motors as light as possible without sacrificing reliability. Honda already has said the battery pack weight is "minimal" and they are comfortable with that piece of the system. Finally, Honda already has made the SH-AWD differential system 100 lbs lighter than the version that is in my 2009 RDX. Figure on a bit more for the NSX.

2. Body and Frame --> Lots of room for savings here, especially in the non-structural body panels. I agree that we probably won't see plastic, unless Honda can engineer a material that is rigid and takes paint well. Maybe? Like I said, I think they are going to make a run at "economical" mass-produced CF. The frame is a really fun question. Will they go with a stamped aluminum unit-body like the NSX? They already know how to do that, so there are some cost savings. Or, will they go tube frame? Obviously, tube frames are expensive because most are hand-welded and fitted. Perhaps Honda will figure out a way to robot-weld a tube frame on the line? A tube frame would be lighter than a unit-body. Also, we'll probably see thin glass used all over.

3. Interior and Accessories --> Like the original NSX, I think Honda is going to attack every item in the car for weight savings, from the A/C to the seats to the steering wheel and shift knob. Also, as mentioned previously, I think they are going to take on the sound-deadening material, which adds a ton of weight. With today's technology like active noise-cancelling (an existing Acura feature), there is no need to slap mats of heavy rubber all over the car.

4. Suspension --> Acura uses active magnetic suspension in some of its cars, but this is likely too heavy for NSX. I think the best solution is to use the existing NA2 front and rear wishbone layout and components- they are proven and light. Given the US-based production, Honda should partner with a domestic company like Penske to develop high-performance monotube shocks and use Hyperco springs or something similar. These will provide a smooth street ride, but also be very capable on the track. A domestic parts source would keep costs down. No sense in having Showa do it overseas. Same with the brakes. I know the massive Porsche brakes look cool on the auto show circuit, but if NSX comes in below 3000, it won't need such giant and heavy brakes. They should go with a solution using domestically-sourced aluminum monoblock calipers. There are plenty of companies like Baer or Wilwood who could do this. Again, it keeps the cost down and provides weight savings and high performance.

Insightful as always counselor!

Question? On the 100lbs weight saving on the powertrain that's because it's all electric now right? So basically the added awd weight is also no longer in the equation.

 

[BD]

Honcho, you've indeed made a very good case.

As I have indicated, C30A/C32B is a heavy engine, something like 450lbs, they can definitely make the new one lighter. Lighter materials with the exhaust/header system, seats and rails. once piece electronics for climate control, sound system/navi, lighter wheels, and more composite parts, they can shed quite a few lbs.

If they can somehow get it to 3200/3300lbs dry weight, I think that is a realist goal, but if they can make it lighter, it will obviously rewrite the rules again.

 

[Swift]

I think they may go with a carbon fiber tub with aluminum comb with the aluminum front and rear frames attached. They use different weaves of carbon fiber and fillers dependent on how much strength is needed in a given area vs weight savings and the technology is already there. They may be able to pull it off.

 

[WingZ]

Hey guys so far Honda is still just talking 3.5but the car is a year and a half out so perhaps they don't want to give anything away. See pg 18

http://world.honda.com/investors/library/road_show/2012/Honda_Information_Meeting_May_2012.pdf

 

[stevenlucksek]

Hi all,

From the website Honda news, it stated that 3.5 L will be used for the NSX, plus 3 extra motors for the NSX to gain more HP. The problem is always they never state the year in the car lower right. If you see page 20 from the link, it will shows that RLX have 2013 on the lower right which shows that it will be produce in 2013. But NSX, they did not even state the year. Why is this occuring? Do Honda now certain that it will produce by 2015?

Thanks

 

[BD]

Because Honda said it will be.


Judging by their PDF presentation, they're on a major upswing. Now just need a few RWD models to complete the line up.

 

[Honcho]

Hey guys so far Honda is still just talking 3.5but the car is a year and a half out so perhaps they don't want to give anything away. See pg 18

http://world.honda.com/investors/library/road_show/2012/Honda_Information_Meeting_May_2012.pdf

Perry, I think NSX is going to use 3.5L, but with a much higher operating RPM. Honda has a lot of experience with their B and K series in this area- they make a mundane 6500 rpm version for the pedestrian models and then a 8500 rpm screamer for the Type R. Same block, same heads, just tweaked and over-engineered too handle the stress. The Honda Way. Honda says they are getting about 300 hp out of the 3.5L test mule. We don't know if this engine will be called "J" in its final version, but it is most certainly based on the venerable J35 SOHC workhorse. I think Honda is evaulating whether to stick with the dual-VTEC SOHC system used on the J37A4 in the TL SH-AWD, or whether to make a unique DOHC head for NSX.

Obviously a new head adds considerable R&D plus production cost. And, it creates brand problems if you can't get it on the "mini-flagship" RLX and ZDX models. If they go this route, I would make DOHC heads available as an expensive "Type S" option for RLX and ZDX, to satisfy those premium performance customers. However, the more I think about it, the more I believe Honda is going to try and make SOHC dual-VTEC work. The critical question is can it breathe well enough at 8000 rpm to deliver the 100 hp/L design goal? Personally, I would much prefer finally seeing Advanced-VTEC debut- it would allow an essentally flat torque curve all the way up to 9000. But, that is wishful thinking. Clearly Honda doesn't feel it adds enough benefit to justify the cost.

 

[d1 guy]

Soooo AS, did you see this HONDA Engine at the SEMA show?

Not trying to change the subject by any means, but wouldnt it be awesome to see honda utilize something like this later?

 

[nsxotic911]

I'm going to come out and say it.. [again] a 100K+ car with a V6 + however many motors is going to get zero respect and SUCK in terms of performance.

That is, unless it can make the horsepower comparable to a stock GT-R, or a 911 Turbo. Even with 2 other electric motors, it won't be able to.

Just the idea of a 3.5 V6 reminds me of a Ford Taurus.

 

[Swift]

Ferrari is developing a turbo charged v6 for the road..

 

[Picasso]

Jgtc 2002 arta nsx 3.5l v6

 

[Picasso]

I'm going to come out and say it.. [again] a 100K+ car with a V6 + however many motors is going to get zero respect and SUCK in terms of performance.

That is, unless it can make the horsepower comparable to a stock GT-R, or a 911 Turbo. Even with 2 other electric motors, it won't be able to.

Just the idea of a 3.5 V6 reminds me of a Ford Taurus.

How about 1.5L V6 + Turbo from Honda reminds u?

 

[BATMANs]

I'm waiting for the 2nd gen NSX owners that have threads about pulling the electric motor portion of the Hybrid system out to save weight and talk about how to FI their V6 threads.

 

[Rusted_nailz]

Ican see that happening for sure. If not members, aftermarket tuner companies.

I'm waiting for the 2nd gen NSX owners that have threads about pulling the electric motor portion of the Hybrid system out to save weight and talk about how to FI their V6 threads.

 

[WingZ]

Perry, I think NSX is going to use 3.5L, but with a much higher operating RPM. Honda has a lot of experience with their B and K series in this area- they make a mundane 6500 rpm version for the pedestrian models and then a 8500 rpm screamer for the Type R. Same block, same heads, just tweaked and over-engineered too handle the stress. The Honda Way. Honda says they are getting about 300 hp out of the 3.5L test mule. We don't know if this engine will be called "J" in its final version, but it is most certainly based on the venerable J35 SOHC workhorse. I think Honda is evaulating whether to stick with the dual-VTEC SOHC system used on the J37A4 in the TL SH-AWD, or whether to make a unique DOHC head for NSX.

Obviously a new head adds considerable R&D plus production cost. And, it creates brand problems if you can't get it on the "mini-flagship" RLX and ZDX models. If they go this route, I would make DOHC heads available as an expensive "Type S" option for RLX and ZDX, to satisfy those premium performance customers. However, the more I think about it, the more I believe Honda is going to try and make SOHC dual-VTEC work. The critical question is can it breathe well enough at 8000 rpm to deliver the 100 hp/L design goal? Personally, I would much prefer finally seeing Advanced-VTEC debut- it would allow an essentally flat torque curve all the way up to 9000. But, that is wishful thinking. Clearly Honda doesn't feel it adds enough benefit to justify the cost.

Well just saw this article and the RLX will have 310 in fwd form (with an interesting all wheel steer system??) and the Sport hybrid will have 370+. I guess they're detuning the hybrid motors more on the RLX. Of course it sounds like it will be a nice 535ix killer and I imagine will be in the same price range.

http://www.automedia.com/Blog/Blog/Blog/Post/BREAKING-NEWS-2014-Acura-RLX-Prototype-Spied!.aspx

I'm wondering now how much they can tweak out of the hybrid motors. If they can do 30hp a piece that's 90hp. Need to tweak almost 90 more out of the engine which I just can't see but I'm no engineer. If they can get 370hp out of it that would get the car to 460hp total and at sub 3k that will be a fast car!

 

[sahtt]

Well just saw this article and the RLX will have 310 in fwd form (with an interesting all wheel steer system??) and the Sport hybrid will have 370+. I guess they're detuning the hybrid motors more on the RLX. Of course it sounds like it will be a nice 535ix killer and I imagine will be in the same price range.

http://www.automedia.com/Blog/Blog/Blog/Post/BREAKING-NEWS-2014-Acura-RLX-Prototype-Spied!.aspx

I'm wondering now how much they can tweak out of the hybrid motors. If they can do 30hp a piece that's 90hp. Need to tweak almost 90 more out of the engine which I just can't see but I'm no engineer. If they can get 370hp out of it that would get the car to 460hp total and at sub 3k that will be a fast car!

with an excellent AWD system it will be a very fast car.

A 460hp 3,000lbs car is a 588hp 2012 GTR (aka the car with only about half a dozen real competitors).

 

[N Spec]

Well just saw this article and the RLX will have 310 in fwd form (with an interesting all wheel steer system??) and the Sport hybrid will have 370+. I guess they're detuning the hybrid motors more on the RLX. Of course it sounds like it will be a nice 535ix killer and I imagine will be in the same price range.

http://www.automedia.com/Blog/Blog/Blog/Post/BREAKING-NEWS-2014-Acura-RLX-Prototype-Spied!.aspx

I'm wondering now how much they can tweak out of the hybrid motors. If they can do 30hp a piece that's 90hp. Need to tweak almost 90 more out of the engine which I just can't see but I'm no engineer. If they can get 370hp out of it that would get the car to 460hp total and at sub 3k that will be a fast car!

I am concerned about interior actually. The new RLX interior is looking bland and cheaper than the TL or TSX. I hope this not happen for the NSX.

 

[BD]

"Acura is projecting an annual sales volume of 180,000 vehicles for the brand in 2012, which would represent a nearly 50 percent increase over 2011 sales results."

That's a very ambitious but (in my opinion) realistic goal. I hope they achieve it.

 

[WingZ]

I am concerned about interior actually. The new RLX interior is looking bland and cheaper than the TL or TSX. I hope this not happen for the NSX.

Oh wow you've seen interior shots of the RLX?? Can you post a link as I've only seen the concept and other spy shots but nothing interior wise.

Well I would hope Honda has learned from the cheap interior fiascos of the insight and Civic plus the RLX is flagship/top tier car and surely they wouldn't make it cheaper than the old one and ask more money.

I'm curious what pricing will be on the RLX since it will be sharing quite a bit with NSX 2.0.

 

[Honcho]

Oh wow you've seen interior shots of the RLX?? Can you post a link as I've only seen the concept and other spy shots but nothing interior wise.

Well I would hope Honda has learned from the cheap interior fiascos of the insight and Civic plus the RLX is flagship/top tier car and surely they wouldn't make it cheaper than the old one and ask more money.

I'm curious what pricing will be on the RLX since it will be sharing quite a bit with NSX 2.0.

My guess is $69,000 MSRP in SH-AWD trim.

 

[N Spec]

Oh wow you've seen interior shots of the RLX?? Can you post a link as I've only seen the concept and other spy shots but nothing interior wise.

Well I would hope Honda has learned from the cheap interior fiascos of the insight and Civic plus the RLX is flagship/top tier car and surely they wouldn't make it cheaper than the old one and ask more money.

I'm curious what pricing will be on the RLX since it will be sharing quite a bit with NSX 2.0.

Looks like it came from the same soup as the Civic mishap, probably were developed in the same cycle...

VS 2008 TL

VS 2009 TSX

Maybe it is the beige that is making it look plain, but the RLX is missing the sculpted pillars or sophisticated detailing that even the mid or entry level Acura interiors have. However, I do like the simplified button layout. It looks much nicer with the spartan button arrays and I am sure it is a lot easier to learn the new layout. You are not bombarded by an army of buttons, each with their own function or even repeating their function. This was the approach the original NSX took and it paid off.

Honda, you need to find a better balance or compromise. Simplify the button layout, but don't simplify or tone down the artistic detailing to step backwards and make it look cheap. It wouldn't be hard to redesign the button layouts for the TL or TSX right now so that it is more concise and elegant while maintaining the sculpted interior.

 

[Caustic]

bombarded by an army of buttons

Haha, so true.

 

[WingZ]

My guess is $69,000 MSRP in SH-AWD trim.

Well it will have (hopefully) performance to match the V8 Euro lux cars so that's fair while still being more ..."green" lol I don't like the looks of the concept but am waiting to see it in person as I'd take it over the 550i that I love because I know it's a better car in the long run.

Looks like it came from the same soup as the Civic mishap, probably were developed in the same cycle...

VS 2008 TL

VS 2009 TSX

Maybe it is the beige that is making it look plain, but the RLX is missing the sculpted pillars or sophisticated detailing that even the mid or entry level Acura interiors have. However, I do like the simplified button layout. It looks much nicer with the spartan button arrays and I am sure it is a lot easier to learn the new layout. You are not bombarded by an army of buttons, each with their own function or even repeating their function. This was the approach the original NSX took and it paid off.

Honda, you need to find a better balance or compromise. Simplify the button layout, but don't simplify or tone down the artistic detailing to step backwards and make it look cheap. It wouldn't be hard to redesign the button layouts for the TL or TSX right now so that it is more concise and elegant while maintaining the sculpted interior.

Doesn't look bad to me even in the beige. I just hope the seats don't wear as quickly as the ZDX's. Thanks for the pic too!

 

[WingZ]

My guess is $69,000 MSRP in SH-AWD trim.

Oh yeah speaking of which if Honda is saying 30mpg on the 4000lb+ RLX what in the world will the NSX mpg be:biggrin:

 

[N Spec]

Doesn't look bad to me even in the beige. I just hope the seats don't wear as quickly as the ZDX's. Thanks for the pic too!

I think that you are being too nice :redface: Being too nice will let Honda lose footing ultimately because it gives them room to slack. I still stand by the thought that the RLX interior could be better, but I do agree that it is not bad, especially with a less busy button layout.

Oh yeah speaking of which if Honda is saying 30mpg on the 4000lb+ RLX what in the world will the NSX mpg be:biggrin:

I bet they will get 36-40 mpg if they can achieve 3000 lbs. Speaking of which, I was checking out the ILX specs. The Hybrid ILX's curb weight is actually lighter than the 2.4 sport model! They all tap in right under 3000 lbs. I checked the Prius's curb weight, it was sub 3000lbs also. I never really bothered to check any of these cars. This shines some optimistic light.

The RLX projected weight bothered me, but I think that is because it is loaded with many amenities that are necessary at all. I strongly believe they can achieve a 3000 lb car now and hope they do so.