Do NOT buy cheap brakes or tires!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stuntman]

i havent really done anything to it. just waiting for a good price for any FI kit for my year since its drive by wire. might leave it stock since i might be able to pick up an nsx soon. doesnt help when i visit ethan and he has two. everytime i go to his house it makes me want to get one really bad. i know if i wait and not want it so bad, i will come across one for a deal. thanks for the tip. ill wait til the pads need changing first before i buy the upgrade stuff. still hasnt had its first oil change yet

Pads and fluid and you'll be set, SS lines are an added bonus (that WILL benefit you and you WILL notice them) but the pads/fluid should be the bare minimum and you'd be set.

My friend will be posting a video soon on Youtube of me and him in 2 separate S2000s drifting the crap out of them around California Speedway.

One was bone stock (well, coilovers) while the other had coilovers and a Supercharger kit = 300hp. The Supercharged car had more power but kicked in hard after vtec and actually ruined the balance IMO.

At the end of the day, switching back and fourth between the two cars, we both came to the conclusion that the S2000's ABS system was probably one of the best that weve driven, the brakes (even w/supercharger) were more than adequate, and we enjoyed the car w/o supercharger better on the track.

-Hope that helps, and after owning an NSX and driving S2000s on a regular basis, do pads and fluid, no BBK, no S/C and enjoy your car and track it! -and save up for NSx.

 

[latzke]

Pads and fluid and you'll be set, SS lines are an added bonus...

Stainless lines may (or may not) improve feel a little, but I personally don't think it's worth the possibility of increased risk of rupture. Modern ones with plastic coating over the stainless braid are very likely better than the older ones, but I still wouldn't trust them with my life, especially over time (many years of use).

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Stainless lines may (or may not) improve feel a little.

For clarification there is no question they do. It's simple physics, as you waste hydraulic energy expanding rubber lines. I can tell the difference on my short clutch line.

but I personally don't think it's worth the possibility of increased risk of rupture.

So replace them- spend the extra $5 and get the DOT certified ones if they make you feel safer. Some even pass the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) No. 106 certification.

SS lines are adequately safe. Most modern lines come with a thick layer of Teflon on the inner tubing, an adequate braid, an outer clear sleeve to curtail micro-abrasion from debris working into the braid over time, OEM attachment provisions, and are tested to 4500psi before going out the door.

SS hydraulic lines are used everyday on everything from aircraft/aerospace to military hardware to motorcycles to pro race cars to club track day cars to street cars on those "risky poker rallies". :wink:

Modern ones with plastic coating over the stainless braid are very likely better than the older ones, but I still wouldn't trust them with my life, especially over time (many years of use).

My logic would normally suggest that surely everyone with an NSX, with enough performance enthusiasm to land them on nsxprime, can manage to find the $90 as needed during annual inspection?

Of course, I do realize that what normal logic suggests doesn't always pan out here... as most bought second hand, 15 year old stock fluid and lines are usually safe enough, the last word on performance technology comes from the Acura service desk, some are just stubborn/ignorant, and still yet for others it is going to have to fall to second seat after a $10,000 CTSC or an 02' conversion. :wink:

I use them everyday and replace regularly. All I can offer is that I've never heard of failure that wasn't directly related to the installation or utter owner neglect, nor seen many appearances by enthusiasts on 'Seconds From Disaster'. :smile:

Not attacking you, simply asserting my view.

 

[stuntman]

^ thanks John!

Personally I don't replace them 'regularly' because a quality set (DOT -as John described) are more resistant to damage than a relatively unprotected, weak stock rubber line that can crack.

The older your car is, the more noticable difference it will be (still on brand new cars, their is a noticable difference).

I would highly reccomend getting SS lines from a DOT approved line and not some cheap $20 line. A good company would be Goodridge.

Stainless lines may (or may not) improve feel a little, but I personally don't think it's worth the possibility of increased risk of rupture. Modern ones with plastic coating over the stainless braid are very likely better than the older ones, but I still wouldn't trust them with my life, especially over time (many years of use).

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines

I would strongly disagree

I cannot tell you how much I HATE the Wiki and think that it's a terrible source of information, sorry MISinformation.

Like i've said in an earlier post, I have PERSONALLY installed (out of my garage) over 20 stainless steel lines on my family/friends cars. The first one was over 5 years ago and 50,000 miles (on the 'older' style no plastic cover SS lines).

The wiki is full of a bunch of crap and I would not use it as a resource.

Again, even my mom (who dosn't know anything about cars) felt a difference from SS lines. All 20/20 felt a difference, and I personally drove all 20 of their cars and noticed an improvement.

Keep in mind, this is just 20 cars OUT OF MY OWN GARAGE, let alone other of my friends putting SS lines on their cars at their own homes.

 

[OneRedNSX]

blah blah blah

I cannot tell you how much I HATE the Wiki and think that it's a terrible source of information, sorry MISinformation.

blah blah blah

The wiki is full of a bunch of crap and I would not use it as a resource.

then quit bitching about it and change it. thats the entire point

 

[stuntman]

then quit bitching about it and change it. thats the entire point

So I take my time and fix it, then some 'forum expert' comes in and changes what I fixed?

Not worth it. I'd rather just not recommend looking at the wiki.

 

[makav3li]

Pads and fluid and you'll be set, SS lines are an added bonus (that WILL benefit you and you WILL notice them) but the pads/fluid should be the bare minimum and you'd be set.

My friend will be posting a video soon on Youtube of me and him in 2 separate S2000s drifting the crap out of them around California Speedway.

One was bone stock (well, coilovers) while the other had coilovers and a Supercharger kit = 300hp. The Supercharged car had more power but kicked in hard after vtec and actually ruined the balance IMO.

At the end of the day, switching back and fourth between the two cars, we both came to the conclusion that the S2000's ABS system was probably one of the best that weve driven, the brakes (even w/supercharger) were more than adequate, and we enjoyed the car w/o supercharger better on the track.

-Hope that helps, and after owning an NSX and driving S2000s on a regular basis, do pads and fluid, no BBK, no S/C and enjoy your car and track it! -and save up for NSx.

thanks for the input

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Definitely good advice. However, I have questions about the example that your show in photos.

The application looks to be other than NSX, so I may not have all the information. However, the grinding of the steel caliper bracket into the aluminum mounting hat is puzzling.

The rotor hat is not floating, it is fixed to the hub and cannot move relative to the hub and caliper mounting bracket. Secondly, the caliper mounting bracket is also fixed and cannot move. There should be no movement or tolerance changes from the point that it was installed and then used on the vehicle other than a small small insignificant amount due to thermal expansion.

The clearance problem you photoed appears to be well beyond a small insignificant amount from thermal expansion - more like 5-8 mm of clearance issue. Since the caliper bracket and the rotor hat is fixed into position, how could this not have been discovered upon installation?

I'm not questioning your good advice about using quality components, only your example that alludes to a product being "poor quality" based on your example. Thanks again for your helpful post.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[ANYTIME]

I have to agree with Chris here. How can the hat float around and contact the caliper when it is held in place by the wheel/studs? The rotor disconnected and floating around I can see happening.

Definitely good advice. However, I have questions about the example that your show in photos.

The application looks to be other than NSX, so I may not have all the information. However, the grinding of the steel caliper bracket into the aluminum mounting hat is puzzling.

The rotor hat is not floating, it is fixed to the hub and cannot move relative to the hub and caliper mounting bracket. Secondly, the caliper mounting bracket is also fixed and cannot move. There should be no movement or tolerance changes from the point that it was installed and then used on the vehicle other than a small small insignificant amount due to thermal expansion.

The clearance problem you photoed appears to be well beyond a small insignificant amount from thermal expansion - more like 5-8 mm of clearance issue. Since the caliper bracket and the rotor hat is fixed into position, how could this not have been discovered upon installation?

I'm not questioning your good advice about using quality components, only your example that alludes to a product being "poor quality" based on your example. Thanks again for your helpful post.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[Lonestranger]

Buying cheap tires is like buying cheap helmets, or as the sign says "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet!!":biggrin:

Yeah thanks Stuntman! We always get the "My NSX handles like crap" or the "Check out my new wheels" thread where some guy bought $49.99 tires. My personal fav is the guys who buy $6k wheels and then $300 on tires LOL

Oh and lest I forget the "NSX scary in the rain" threads LOL

 

[latzke]

I understand what you are seeing but the caliper bracket never touched the hat -before failure. It touched the hat after the failure because the rotor is no longer in contact/connection with the hat and the rotor is floating around and moving around (in a rotary-fashion) around the hat damaging the hat -although it does definately look like the caliper bracket was hitting the hat, it wasnt.

I have to agree with Chris here. How can the hat float around and contact the caliper when it is held in place by the wheel/studs? The rotor disconnected and floating around I can see happening.

Me too, or three...or four. I don't want to put words in stuntman's mouth, but I imagine this would have been a more accurate way to word what he said...

I understand what you are seeing but the caliper bracket never touched the hat. The rotor touched the hat after the failure because the rotor is no longer in contact/connection with the hat and the rotor is floating around and moving around (in a rotary-fashion) around the hat damaging the hat -although it does definitely look like the caliper bracket was hitting the hat, it wasn't.

 

[sptrader]

Stuntman said "there are plenty of relatively inexpensive tires that deliver great performance for the cost,"
Can you name some tires that would qualify as reasonably priced but deliver great performance ? (I'm looking for some street tires now- NOT track tires-to fit 16" and 17" wheels)
Any recommendations ?

 

[latzke]

Stuntman said "there are plenty of relatively inexpensive tires that deliver great performance for the cost,"
Can you name some tires that would qualify as reasonably priced but deliver great performance ? (I'm looking for some street tires now- NOT track tires-to fit 16" and 17" wheels)
Any recommendations ?

Depending on your needs, Goodyear Eagle F1 GS D3 or Falken Azenis RT615 (for 16s/17s they're in the neighborhood of $650 and $480, respectively, for a set of 4).

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Street_Tire_Reviews

 

[nsxtasy]

Regarding brake fluids, it is indeed true that their performance is measured by boiling point. Here are the boiling points and prices for many brake fluids available today, in order by dry boiling point:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:???F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1C (new since 2006)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:388F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 PM-1 (pre 2006) ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:572F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:421F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:608F -- WET:390F --- AP RACING 660 ($28.99/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- QUADRIGA/PROSPEED GS610 ($14.99/16 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:635F -- WET:430F --- PROJECT MU G/FOUR 335 ($45.00/1.0L 33.8 OZ)

For clarification there is no question they do. It's simple physics, as you waste hydraulic energy expanding rubber lines. I can tell the difference on my short clutch line.

Not on the NSX. In my experience, there is no perceptible difference in feel between the stock brake lines and stainless steel brake lines in a well-maintained NSX. Go ahead, press on the pedal while your car is stopped. Do you feel sponginess, do you feel the lines swelling? I sure don't. And I've driven NSXs with both kinds of lines. No difference at all.

Depending on your needs, Goodyear Eagle F1 GS D3 or Falken Azenis RT615 (for 16s/17s they're in the neighborhood of $650 and $480, respectively, for a set of 4).

Both of these are excellent tires, and excellent choices for an NSX. However, don't be misled by the lower price of the RT-615; it wears extremely rapidly - expect to go through 2-3 sets in the miles that a single set of F1 GS-D3 lasts, which more than offsets any advantage in purchase price. The RT-615 is also not that great in rain, whereas the F1 GS-D3 is outstanding in the wet.

If you're willing to sacrifice performance in order to save a few bucks on tires - I think it's silly, why pay all that money for the performance of an NSX in order to downgrade its performance, but hey, it's your car - the Kumho SPT costs less than either of these and offers decent performance (although not at all on the same level). Compared with the similarly-priced Fuzion ZRi mentioned much earlier in this topic, the SPT is at least as good on dry pavement, and significantly better in rain, and lasts longer. Both of these are "budget performance" tires designed for those who are looking to save money in their tires, rather than get the very best tires on the market. The SPT is a great choice for a sport compact or even a family sedan (as long as you don't plan to use them during winter conditions, since it's a summer tire, not an all-season).

 

[sptrader]

I have the Goodyear F1's on another car now (308qv), they are excellent on dry or wet pavement and I was leaning towards them again BUT I drive in the mountains sometimes and I know the F1's are dangerous in snow(we can get snow in the mountains ALL year in Colorado). I was also looking at Pzero's, I think they have an HP all season tire that is supposed to be good.

 

[nsxtasy]

I have the Goodyear F1's on another car now (308qv), they are excellent on dry or wet pavement and I was leaning towards them again BUT I drive in the mountains sometimes and I know the F1's are dangerous in snow(we can get snow in the mountains ALL year in Colorado). I was also looking at Pzero's, I think they have an HP all season tire that is supposed to be good.

All of the tires mentioned here are summer tires, suitable for driving in dry weather as well as rain at temperatures above freezing. If you need to use the same tires in snow and frigid cold in the winter as in moderate to warm temperatures, you might want an all-season tire, of which the best IMHO are the Kumho ASX (also usually cheapest), Pirelli PZero Nero M+S (the one you're thinking of), Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Position, and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. However, none of these will perform as well the rest of the year as summer tires, even the less expensive ones. If you really intend to drive your NSX in winter and want the best performance all year round, you're better off getting a second set of wheels, so that you can enjoy the performance of summer tires in three seasons, and then swapping to true winter tires (rather than all-seasons) in the winter. (Many of us in northern areas do this on all our cars, not just the NSX.)

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Me too, or three...or four. I don't want to put words in stuntman's mouth, but I imagine this would have been a more accurate way to word what he said...

Craig -- thanks for your clarification. This makes much more sense.

Stuntman -- have you consulted the manufacture on this? I assume this is the same manufacture that sponsors the FactorX NSX race car that you drive?

Cheers,
-- Chris

 

[stuntman]

Stuntman said "there are plenty of relatively inexpensive tires that deliver great performance for the cost,"
Can you name some tires that would qualify as reasonably priced but deliver great performance ? (I'm looking for some street tires now- NOT track tires-to fit 16" and 17" wheels)
Any recommendations ?

Quickly here are some good options w/prices (for 215/40-17) off the top of my head:

Yokohama AVS ES100 - $98
BFGoodrich G-Force Sport - $99
BFGoodrich G-Force KDW2 - $134
Toyo T1R - $165
Bridgestone RE050 - $165

In my experience, there is no perceptible difference in feel between the stock brake lines and stainless steel brake lines in a well-maintained NSX. Go ahead, press on the pedal while your car is stopped. Do you feel sponginess, do you feel the lines swelling? I sure don't. And I've driven NSXs with both kinds of lines. No difference at all.

You have to understand that their is a difference between when the fluid and lines are cold, and when they are 400*+, on the verge of boiling, and expanding your stock rubber lines. Just pressing the pedal when the car is stopped (especially when off) does not tell you anything.

You will not notice a difference from stock to SS lines just sitting in your driveway. You feel the difference in lack of pedal travel, feel, response, and sensitivity when you're driving and its very pronounced when you are putting your brakes under abuse on a track. (again, even my mom can feel the difference driving around the street... I hope you're more sensitive to changes than that.)

You've argued this way too many times. We already understand your point as well as mine. It's beating a dead horse. But for future reference, you can't test the 'sponginess' or 'performance' of your brakes in the driveway...

Craig -- thanks for your clarification. This makes much more sense.

Stuntman -- have you consulted the manufacture on this? I assume this is the same manufacture that sponsors the FactorX NSX race car that you drive?

Cheers,
-- Chris

+1.

I could have sworn I posted something similar to that, but yes: The rotor was no longer connected to the hat and had an orbital/rotary movement around the hat rubbing and grinding the hat to make it appear the hat was in contact with the caliper.

Keep in mind, the rotor was on the car for two and a half days and failed during qualifying. My team (Kensai Racing) inspects everything after each session, so their was never a rubbing issue, and the wear/grinding you see was from the rotor contacting the hat after it disconnected from the hat.

I have not consulted Racing Brake about this failure as I have been really busy with midterms, Koni Challenge, ALMS, Time Attack, and a few other programs i'm doing. But I will definitely talk to them about this issue as it has shown up on an STI as well (on this forum alone).

Racing Brake supported the Factor X car for all 3 of Factor X's Modified Class Wins. The silver car is now retired and FX has a much faster Unlimited car in the works that requires a lot higher level braking capabilities than what was previously used.

 

[sptrader]

Stuntman- Thanks for the tire recommendations !

 

[nsxtasy]

Yokohama AVS ES100 - $98
BFGoodrich G-Force Sport - $99
BFGoodrich G-Force KDW2 - $134
Toyo T1R - $165
Bridgestone RE050 - $165

I wouldn't buy ANY of these tires. And it's a no-brainer, any time you can get more performance for less money.

The Goodyear F1 GS-D3 currently costs $143/tire in 215/40-17 with their current $40/set rebate offer. It's better than ANY of these. And that's not just my opinion based on driving it, but also that of the tire testers at Car and Driver (where the last two tires listed were included in its test, along with higher-level models from the other manufacurers listed).

Furthermore, if you're willing to degrade the performance of your NSX in order to save a few bucks on tires, there is no reason to get the less-expensive tires listed in that post, either. Compared with the previously-mentioned Kumho SPT, the ES100 costs more, is similar on dry pavement, is worse on wet pavement. The g-Force Sport costs more, is worse on wet and dry. The KDW2 is similar to the SPT in performance, but almost twice as much money (and the KDW2 is nowhere near as good as the F1 GS-D3, which is only a few bucks more). Oh, the SPT is $90 in 215/40-17. So if you're primarily looking to save money, the SPT is a better buy than the first three, pure and simple.

Again, I think you're better off spending more money for tires with better performance, such as the Goodyear F1 GS-D3, rather than the cheaper budget tires.

You will not notice a difference from stock to SS lines just sitting in your driveway. You feel the difference in lack of pedal travel, feel, response, and sensitivity when you're driving and its very pronounced when you are putting your brakes under abuse on a track.

Absolutely NOT true. I have driven NSXs for long track sessions where the brakes get hot, with stock brake lines and with stainless steel brake lines. There is absolutely NO difference. No difference in pedal travel, no difference in pedal feel, no difference in pedal response, no difference in sensitivity.

There is NO difference in feel between well-maintained NSXs with stock brake lines, and with stainless steel brake lines. No difference on the track, no difference on the street. NONE.

You've argued this way too many times. We already understand your point as well as mine. It's beating a dead horse.

You've argued this way too many times. We already understand your point as well as mine. It's beating a dead horse. Your claim that anyone can feel a difference between the two is JUST NOT TRUE.

 

[socalx]

in my opinion yokohama es 100 tires should not be considered unless you really drive the nsx like a commuter and not a sports car. I had them on my car for 1 week and sold them. very easy to tell the reduced grip and increased oversteer compared to a quality tire (re050, s03, or ps2 or goodyear)

also, for me stainless lines were a dramatic difference in pedal feel. having riden sport bikes since i was in my teens, the analogy i will give is stainless lines AND good fluid on the nsx is like having great brakes on a modern sportbike. I can modulate the brakes on my r1 with one finger and i have the same effect on the nsx. Way more pedal feel. it is dramatic.

 

[docjohn]

Be careful when some of you claim that changing from stock to ss lines dramaticly improves the feel,I'm guessing that the change to new fluid and possibly new pads at the same time might account for the difference.

 

[socalx]

docjohn, i had new fluid before and after and did not change the pads. i did change both front and rear lines to ss. don't know if some of the confusion here is becuase somepeople perhaps only changed the front? anyway, i am not saying the car braking distance is any shorter with the ss lines. (the brake distance is determined by the tire), but the brake feel and modulation is improved.

thanks
tom

 

[MoogieBoogie]

Anyone try the new BFGoodrich g-Force Super Sport A/S tire yet?

 

[MJK]

docjohn, i had new fluid before and after and did not change the pads. i did change both front and rear lines to ss. don't know if some of the confusion here is becuase somepeople perhaps only changed the front? anyway, i am not saying the car braking distance is any shorter with the ss lines. (the brake distance is determined by the tire), but the brake feel and modulation is improved.

I also changed only the brake lines and flushed with fluid. I can feel absolutely no difference under any circumstances. Oh well.