myf16 said:
Thanks for the correction. This topic should offically be finished.
Clarification needed for spectators and fans
- Thread starter Litespeeds
- Start date
Thanks for the correction. This topic should offically be finished.
I do understand the questions, but it still goes like this. This is a registered event for NSXCA members and their guests. The vendors set up for the first 2-3 days, they are not at the track to sell, actually most will be at the track to drive
So those coming just for Saturday or Sunday would miss out on them anyway.
I own a small business. I am the only one who can officially make money at my small business (State license goes away if someone else works on the patients), and I am taking three and one half days away from my income (and sadly my patients) because there is a continuing ed semninar in NC the same weekend and no one is available to work for me. I will lose somewhere on the order of 6-7 grand because of this, not to count hotel, travel and registration fees. In addition I am still open for the non medical aspects of my business and will still pay employees plus all the fixed expenses that take place. I miss many things because of this but I want to attend NSXPO.
I find the commeradarie (sp?) and the track time are invaluable, and I know it will not happen this way every year. I have never attended Octoberfest with BMWCCA or a national PCA event, but I imagine it would be the same. I know all of my professional events are like this. I know the few CES and Computer events I have attended are so tight they have guards at doorways checking everyone's passes, and they area all or none type registration events.
We used to have only one fee, tracking or not, because the club base was made up by people who primarily were interested in the driving aspect of the car. Now that there are more people interested in the car without the tracking aspect, there are separate entry event charges. Maybe someday it will become a la carte, who knows. But it will take someone (lightspeeds, sjs? not trying to pick, but I am a little shocked, honestly at your responses) who will grab the ball and run with it. Otherwise realize what is happening with a club who has fewer members than many restaurants will seat, and marvel at what they can accomplish, much like what Honda did with the NSX.
And BTW, who ever joins a club just for what the club can do for them
Kind of like joining a church just so you can make it to heaven
And I find these people to be the most giving, concerned and inclusive group that I have ever been involved with, and I am part hermit.
So those coming just for Saturday or Sunday would miss out on them anyway.I own a small business. I am the only one who can officially make money at my small business (State license goes away if someone else works on the patients), and I am taking three and one half days away from my income (and sadly my patients) because there is a continuing ed semninar in NC the same weekend and no one is available to work for me. I will lose somewhere on the order of 6-7 grand because of this, not to count hotel, travel and registration fees. In addition I am still open for the non medical aspects of my business and will still pay employees plus all the fixed expenses that take place. I miss many things because of this but I want to attend NSXPO.
I find the commeradarie (sp?) and the track time are invaluable, and I know it will not happen this way every year. I have never attended Octoberfest with BMWCCA or a national PCA event, but I imagine it would be the same. I know all of my professional events are like this. I know the few CES and Computer events I have attended are so tight they have guards at doorways checking everyone's passes, and they area all or none type registration events.
We used to have only one fee, tracking or not, because the club base was made up by people who primarily were interested in the driving aspect of the car. Now that there are more people interested in the car without the tracking aspect, there are separate entry event charges. Maybe someday it will become a la carte, who knows. But it will take someone (lightspeeds, sjs? not trying to pick, but I am a little shocked, honestly at your responses) who will grab the ball and run with it. Otherwise realize what is happening with a club who has fewer members than many restaurants will seat, and marvel at what they can accomplish, much like what Honda did with the NSX.
And BTW, who ever joins a club just for what the club can do for them
Kind of like joining a church just so you can make it to heavenAnd I find these people to be the most giving, concerned and inclusive group that I have ever been involved with, and I am part hermit.
Well you all knew I could NOT keep quiet much longer. I dealt with this topic when NSXPO was @ Road America.
First off the #1 reason I am purchasing an NSX is that it is NOT a Ferrari and that I would NOT have to deal with snobby elitists in a club. Well congrats you (NSXPO board) are treating the Top NSX club the same way that I see while @ the Ferrari functions with the exception that I would actually be allowed to attend their event as a non-member. They allow this for several reasons. 1) to help spread the knowledge about their cars to future prospective buyers and enthusiasts. 2) to make some extra bucks off of these people @ vending which includes food, t-shirts, parts, etc.
With spectators signing a waiver insurance is covered.
I can see your point by NOT wanting tons of 16 yr olds or Mustang owners there, which is a whole other topic, but I see nothing wrong with the BMWCCA's policy of allowing anyone in driving a BMW whether a member or not. And if not driving one, they are allowed in if they know someone who is a member.
Andy also said that noone is allowed to talk smack unless they have put on an event themselves. Well I have helped put on an event @ Gingerman. We rented the track, and put on a 1 day lapping session. We just allowed spectators to watch after signing a waiver. A good portion of these "watchers" were back @ the next event as a full paying participants. The motto we learned was the more the merrier up to a limit. Which lowers the cost of the day per person. This is tricky for the first and sometimes second event to plan ahead with a price, guessing on the # that will sign up. But in NSXPO's case it can be planned on how many WILL do the school and how many will only want to watch due to past practice. Do NOT let the watchers in the extra curr. activities, i.e speakers, thurs and fri stuff etc. Only allow them to watch the track activities. For a say $5 or $10 per day price. (you say you are soooo broke) Hell the supercharger auction (in which the medium used was stupid) should pay for all of the people who want to watch for free!
Every single "club" event that I have ever attended Including Ferrari's, I got in either for free or for $5-$10. I spent money at the concessions, and sometimes a T-shirt. The most priceless thing I got from these "other" clubs events was a few more ounces of respect for their cars and their owners. Lets face it we all truely love sportscars of many marques.
I know the current board will NOT change their position (even though a waiting list is started) but by not changing their policy is throwing enough money and new friends away that could come close to fund 2 events a year instead of 1.
My personal point is I will be in San Fran for business that week, but will only have a few hours before my flight back overlapping the event, and its sad that I am un-able to swing by and say hi. It is unreasonable to pay the full amount for this privledge.
I am embarrased to say that I was a member of the NSXCCA. Its the NSXPO rules that made me NOT renew. I will drive my car at all of the other clubs that I am a member of and will spend my money there gladly.
NSXPO is a top class event put on by hard working people. Lets just take it a step further guys. I am expecting an all out attack from Andy and Ken but hey I wouldn't have expressed my opinion if I could NOT take the feedback.
First off the #1 reason I am purchasing an NSX is that it is NOT a Ferrari and that I would NOT have to deal with snobby elitists in a club. Well congrats you (NSXPO board) are treating the Top NSX club the same way that I see while @ the Ferrari functions with the exception that I would actually be allowed to attend their event as a non-member. They allow this for several reasons. 1) to help spread the knowledge about their cars to future prospective buyers and enthusiasts. 2) to make some extra bucks off of these people @ vending which includes food, t-shirts, parts, etc.
With spectators signing a waiver insurance is covered.
I can see your point by NOT wanting tons of 16 yr olds or Mustang owners there, which is a whole other topic, but I see nothing wrong with the BMWCCA's policy of allowing anyone in driving a BMW whether a member or not. And if not driving one, they are allowed in if they know someone who is a member.
Andy also said that noone is allowed to talk smack unless they have put on an event themselves. Well I have helped put on an event @ Gingerman. We rented the track, and put on a 1 day lapping session. We just allowed spectators to watch after signing a waiver. A good portion of these "watchers" were back @ the next event as a full paying participants. The motto we learned was the more the merrier up to a limit. Which lowers the cost of the day per person. This is tricky for the first and sometimes second event to plan ahead with a price, guessing on the # that will sign up. But in NSXPO's case it can be planned on how many WILL do the school and how many will only want to watch due to past practice. Do NOT let the watchers in the extra curr. activities, i.e speakers, thurs and fri stuff etc. Only allow them to watch the track activities. For a say $5 or $10 per day price. (you say you are soooo broke) Hell the supercharger auction (in which the medium used was stupid) should pay for all of the people who want to watch for free!
Every single "club" event that I have ever attended Including Ferrari's, I got in either for free or for $5-$10. I spent money at the concessions, and sometimes a T-shirt. The most priceless thing I got from these "other" clubs events was a few more ounces of respect for their cars and their owners. Lets face it we all truely love sportscars of many marques.
I know the current board will NOT change their position (even though a waiting list is started) but by not changing their policy is throwing enough money and new friends away that could come close to fund 2 events a year instead of 1.
My personal point is I will be in San Fran for business that week, but will only have a few hours before my flight back overlapping the event, and its sad that I am un-able to swing by and say hi. It is unreasonable to pay the full amount for this privledge.
I am embarrased to say that I was a member of the NSXCCA. Its the NSXPO rules that made me NOT renew. I will drive my car at all of the other clubs that I am a member of and will spend my money there gladly.
NSXPO is a top class event put on by hard working people. Lets just take it a step further guys. I am expecting an all out attack from Andy and Ken but hey I wouldn't have expressed my opinion if I could NOT take the feedback.
Bell turbo B18C1 said:
Under your own proposal, you might not be allowed in because you do not have an NSX yet. You would then have to prove that you "know someone who is a member" to gain entry. But what if you drove up in a Mustang? What if you were 16 years old but an NSX enthusiast? Quite simply, where do you "draw the line"?
The bottom line is any event needs a set of rules that, by their very nature, will impact "negatively" upon a segment of the population for whom the event is organized. They are designed to be as overly inclusive as humanly possible with the understanding that not everyone will be able to participate. All, who make the effort, are welcome and those who cannot are invited to attend any other event that meets their interests and schedule.
This pervasive "either play by MY individual rules or I will take my ball and go home" attitude is divisive and should be put to an end. I do not mind, every now and then, if someone beats a dead horse but I find it offensive when someone tries to force feed it to me.
Channel that energy being wasted complaining about an event that you are not going to attend and turn it into something constructive for future events.
Something must have been done right to have over 200 cars from around the country sign up for NSXPO. We'll miss those in our "family" who are unable to attend and hope that during the next 12 months you will be able to participate in some of your regional events and then plan accordingly to be at Watkins Glen in New York for NSXPO 2004.
Bob
I was a member 2 years ago...and know several members who will be there.
what you mean is who pays the big bucks.
like the NSXPO's participation rules?
Is it possible to change the NSXCCA boards minds when people have been bitching about this for 3 years?
yeah and wouldn't it be great to have a hundred more stop by for an hour? a day? 10 min?
or unwilling to shell out hundreds of dollars to stop in for a few hours due to work, family, monetary, etc restrictions.
The NSXPO forces this on us ........to stay home. Like I am going to pay hundreds to be able to stop in on my few hours of free time when I am out there for business.
Bell turbo B18C1 said:
I still do not think anyone realizes this is a once a year club convention, not a weekend track event. You cannot go to the national Ferrari event without signing up for the whole thing. People were allowed to observe at the recent autocross, were they not. Totally different concept.
See above, plus that is only with groups who have pre-existing insurance contracts. That is why you must be a member of PCA or BMWCCA to enter some of these events. Otherwise the waiver is so their insurance or the group is NOT LIABLE.
Is that a national or regional policy. Not my experience here.
Again, see above. There is a HUGE difference between putting on a one day event for locals, and a five day event for people from all over the world. (yes we do get foreign visitors)
Again, were these put on by a local chapter for that area, or a national event put on for everyone. Those were probably single purpose get togethers, i.e. HPDE, and not national conventions. This is like the difference between CES and having a local meet the manufacturers and their products at the local Best Buy.
The waiting list is for people on the track, not viewers. You can only fit so many on the track and still be safe and have enough time to drive and learn.
I of course do not know your schedule. But a lot of our time together is at night. Can you not join us for dinners and the awards ceremony? I realize it is probably too much for you to spend listening to your tone, but it is just a suggestion.
I attend half a dozen BMW CCA track events every year, and I have never seen any with a policy of allowing anyone in driving a BMW. At some, no one is allowed in unless they are signed up for the event. At others, the general public is allowed. These are for events held by several chapters in the North Central Region. I don't know what the policy is at Oktoberfest, their big national event.Bell turbo B18C1[/i] [B]the BMWCCA's policy of allowing anyone in driving a BMW whether a member or not.[/B][/QUOTE][QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ncdogdoc said:
I have club raced an Acura for 6 years and was a past member of NSXCCA. I am in the process of aquiring an X now.
Are you sure you don't own a Ferrari?
I’d like to respond to too many statements to quote each individually, but my references should be clear enough to anyone following this discussion. I could easily go on for many pages addressing an amazing assortment of statements that left me shaking my head, but I’m too short on time for that, especially since it is already clear that my words fall on deaf ears (so to speak[so to “speak”]…) So, without further ado or adequate editing…
I am a member of the NSXCA and recently re-upped for three more years. Ken of course is aware of that so I know his comments on that particular subject were not directed to me. But I think some of the other comments by both he and Andy make it quite clear what the problem is. NSXPO is of the organizers, by the organizers for the organizers. Sure I fully believe that in the end they get less out of the actual event than others because so much of their time is spent making it happen and run smoothly, but one hopes that they get their own form of satisfaction from that. But my point is that saying anyone not working of the project has no say in how it is organized is a piss poor attitude to have. Why should I need to be on the board or participate in the project to make a suggestion, or for that matter campaign for change? That attitude alone makes the rest of this sadly predictable.
I’ve noticed that you continuously take things said by dissenters and twist them into something quite different than stated. That’s a sign of someone defending an indefensible position and fits in nicely with playground tactics like making it clear who owns the ball and anyone who doesn’t like your rules should start their own game. (BTW, there isn’t a track in the St. Louis area worthy of a Geo convention much less NSXPO, and if there were I wouldn’t tackle the job because that’s not what I’m cut out for. Does that make me a bad person?) As many others have already stated, your “policies” are the rarest exception to the rule at such events. Although I knowledge that NSXPO is probably a cut above the rest in terms of depth of planning for activities etc., I scarcely think that you can justify your position by comparing it to events and snobby clubs in entirely unrelated fields. And the fact that it’s much more than just a one or two day lapping event is no excuse for making those days off limits. It is also clear that people are willing pay a few bucks to enter the track as spectators even though that too would be irregular.
Doc, I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice so much for the event, but I’m sorry you can’t appreciate that not everyone is willing or able to do the same but would still enjoy a day hanging out trackside living vicariously through you. And once again, we’re willing to pay an appropriate fee for the honor, even if it were enough to cover the meals if that part is so awfully difficult to control. But to suggest that someone who has just a few hours to burn should then hang around for the banquet and awards ceremony to help justify a fee of several hundred dollars is yet another case of missing the point. I’m sorry if you’re surprised by my attitude here, but I’m surprised that some others are so utterly unconcerned about their fellow NSX owners and even dues paying club members.
Another ludicrous aspect to this whole thing is that on the one hand we are accused of “crying” about the situation, while every other sentence from the organizers is about the great personal sacrifices made to put on the event. Give me a break! We each do what we find personally satisfying and rewarding, even when aspects of it are painful. If you didn’t enjoy it or feel it was worth doing then you would bail out. Oh, that’s right, Andy did. Besides, what the heck does that have to do with acting in a reasonable manner to accommodate other people, especially those with whom you socialize?
The simple fact is that you have not, and IMO can not, come up with reasonable justification for the rule about spectators at the track other than the obvious fact that you make the rules and therefore can do as you please. Well, that’s true, but don’t act so surprised and offended when people call you on it, especially when you’ve been hearing this for years and still stick to your position.
I guess what bothers me the most is that no matter how hard I try, and trust me I’ve read all the rationale and really tried, I can’t imagine myself making the same decision in your position. The idea is so foreign to me that I swear it would never even have entered my mind. Without question I would do what it takes to get a waiver and issue arm bands just like every other event I’ve ever attended, and handle the food thing in any one of several perfectly manageable ways. And spare me the tired old bit about not judging until I’ve done it crap. That has absolutely nothing to do with this but you keep bringing it up because it’s the only crutch you’ve got. Compared to the rest of the enormous task of putting one of these on, and I’ve acknowledged that, it should be a mere flyspeck of a chore for such supreme and experienced organizers. The only conclusion I can reach is that you just plain don’t give a darn.
Quite honestly, I’m far more disappointed in you guys than I am by the fact that I can’t stop by and visit.
I am a member of the NSXCA and recently re-upped for three more years. Ken of course is aware of that so I know his comments on that particular subject were not directed to me. But I think some of the other comments by both he and Andy make it quite clear what the problem is. NSXPO is of the organizers, by the organizers for the organizers. Sure I fully believe that in the end they get less out of the actual event than others because so much of their time is spent making it happen and run smoothly, but one hopes that they get their own form of satisfaction from that. But my point is that saying anyone not working of the project has no say in how it is organized is a piss poor attitude to have. Why should I need to be on the board or participate in the project to make a suggestion, or for that matter campaign for change? That attitude alone makes the rest of this sadly predictable.
I’ve noticed that you continuously take things said by dissenters and twist them into something quite different than stated. That’s a sign of someone defending an indefensible position and fits in nicely with playground tactics like making it clear who owns the ball and anyone who doesn’t like your rules should start their own game. (BTW, there isn’t a track in the St. Louis area worthy of a Geo convention much less NSXPO, and if there were I wouldn’t tackle the job because that’s not what I’m cut out for. Does that make me a bad person?) As many others have already stated, your “policies” are the rarest exception to the rule at such events. Although I knowledge that NSXPO is probably a cut above the rest in terms of depth of planning for activities etc., I scarcely think that you can justify your position by comparing it to events and snobby clubs in entirely unrelated fields. And the fact that it’s much more than just a one or two day lapping event is no excuse for making those days off limits. It is also clear that people are willing pay a few bucks to enter the track as spectators even though that too would be irregular.
Doc, I appreciate your willingness to sacrifice so much for the event, but I’m sorry you can’t appreciate that not everyone is willing or able to do the same but would still enjoy a day hanging out trackside living vicariously through you. And once again, we’re willing to pay an appropriate fee for the honor, even if it were enough to cover the meals if that part is so awfully difficult to control. But to suggest that someone who has just a few hours to burn should then hang around for the banquet and awards ceremony to help justify a fee of several hundred dollars is yet another case of missing the point. I’m sorry if you’re surprised by my attitude here, but I’m surprised that some others are so utterly unconcerned about their fellow NSX owners and even dues paying club members.
Another ludicrous aspect to this whole thing is that on the one hand we are accused of “crying” about the situation, while every other sentence from the organizers is about the great personal sacrifices made to put on the event. Give me a break! We each do what we find personally satisfying and rewarding, even when aspects of it are painful. If you didn’t enjoy it or feel it was worth doing then you would bail out. Oh, that’s right, Andy did. Besides, what the heck does that have to do with acting in a reasonable manner to accommodate other people, especially those with whom you socialize?
The simple fact is that you have not, and IMO can not, come up with reasonable justification for the rule about spectators at the track other than the obvious fact that you make the rules and therefore can do as you please. Well, that’s true, but don’t act so surprised and offended when people call you on it, especially when you’ve been hearing this for years and still stick to your position.
I guess what bothers me the most is that no matter how hard I try, and trust me I’ve read all the rationale and really tried, I can’t imagine myself making the same decision in your position. The idea is so foreign to me that I swear it would never even have entered my mind. Without question I would do what it takes to get a waiver and issue arm bands just like every other event I’ve ever attended, and handle the food thing in any one of several perfectly manageable ways. And spare me the tired old bit about not judging until I’ve done it crap. That has absolutely nothing to do with this but you keep bringing it up because it’s the only crutch you’ve got. Compared to the rest of the enormous task of putting one of these on, and I’ve acknowledged that, it should be a mere flyspeck of a chore for such supreme and experienced organizers. The only conclusion I can reach is that you just plain don’t give a darn.
Quite honestly, I’m far more disappointed in you guys than I am by the fact that I can’t stop by and visit.
You missunderstood my point. You are full, and were 99% sure you would fill, (meaning the event expenses are covered) so why still prohibit members or NSX owning non-members to stop by for free or a small fee?
Why would I be so upset if I did NOT want to attend??? I did not think you were allowed to attend anything even a dinner without paying the full registration.
I do plan on attending full NSXPO's in the future with a group. There are about 6 NSX's in my town. But its difficult to get rid of that bitter taste the way the club treats newbies, and future owners of the great car. I guess I am just used to the way other clubs fully embrace a new or prospective members instead of saying "this is the way it is and if you don't like it tough"
nsxtasy said:
Some Regions were not letting non-members in. Now insurance reasons have them, pretty much nationwide, not allowing you to enter there event unless you are a BMW CCA member.
Windy City BMWCCA allowed non-members in back in May. I have the Badger BMWCCA event in a couple of weeks we'll see????
Please count to 10, and then to another 10 ....
Folks I will ask your indulgence once more in here.
As I said in my previous post:
If people still don't get the gist of the message quoted above, and the time it takes to formulate and flush out a process to address this unique request never implemented at previous NSXPOs, with all the logistics involved this late in the program, then we really have no way of ever addressing your instant messaging needs, however hard we try.
Please allow the organizers the courtesy of some time to address this issue without impugning motives.
And the buck stops here!
Folks I will ask your indulgence once more in here.
As I said in my previous post:
Please give the organizers a moment to respond ......
The issue of the spectator is a valid one. Given that this is NSXPO and not just any other track event, there are certain parameters and logistics involved.
[cut]
HOWEVER, we hear you. We are exploring options that are easy to implement at the same time address many of the other concerns that you may or may not be aware of. Be assured that this IS being reviewed seriously.
Hrant
Chair, NSXPO 2003 Planning Committee [/B]
If people still don't get the gist of the message quoted above, and the time it takes to formulate and flush out a process to address this unique request never implemented at previous NSXPOs, with all the logistics involved this late in the program, then we really have no way of ever addressing your instant messaging needs, however hard we try.
Please allow the organizers the courtesy of some time to address this issue without impugning motives.
And the buck stops here!
Other ideas, not blasting anyone
Bell T, I hear you. The St. Louis region up until last June had been letting non-members run as long as they registered, PCA members as well. For that event and this event they are requiring you to be a member. Insurance reasons.
I have also been the registrar for the last 2 St. Louis region PCA events, we allow anyone that fits the registration guidelines to register. BMW & PCA club members pay the same and have the same preferences if there are any.
Though it may not be as big as Xpo, it can see 100 plus cars and a few vendors. We have not charged anyone to come into the gates to watch. The tracks insurance our insurance has never been a cause not to. They are asked to simply sign a waiver at the gate.
We have had groups of NSX's, Mazda's, Ferraris, Mitsus ect , come as spectators and then come back as participants.
The meetings, track sessions, and lunches when provided are for the paid entrants or any club member that decides they want to hang out and talk with other members.
We have a scaled down version of the track event called the high performance experience, Those people that are on the fence about tracking their car or just want to get a ride or so, sign up for this event. It is at a reduced cost, and the only person that can take them out on the track is an Instructor. They get to see people prepping the cars, sit in on classroom sessions, walk the track and just hang out, at a lesser price. They are usually escorted by an instructor that has just been made an instructor.
You can limit that group to any size you want. It brings in a lot of revenue.
I plan on joining the NSXCA, However, it isn't a must for me.
I hang out with the NSX guys here on what's getting to be a pretty regular basis.
Len
Bell turbo B18C1 said:
Bell T, I hear you. The St. Louis region up until last June had been letting non-members run as long as they registered, PCA members as well. For that event and this event they are requiring you to be a member. Insurance reasons.
I have also been the registrar for the last 2 St. Louis region PCA events, we allow anyone that fits the registration guidelines to register. BMW & PCA club members pay the same and have the same preferences if there are any.
Though it may not be as big as Xpo, it can see 100 plus cars and a few vendors. We have not charged anyone to come into the gates to watch. The tracks insurance our insurance has never been a cause not to. They are asked to simply sign a waiver at the gate.
We have had groups of NSX's, Mazda's, Ferraris, Mitsus ect , come as spectators and then come back as participants.
The meetings, track sessions, and lunches when provided are for the paid entrants or any club member that decides they want to hang out and talk with other members.
We have a scaled down version of the track event called the high performance experience, Those people that are on the fence about tracking their car or just want to get a ride or so, sign up for this event. It is at a reduced cost, and the only person that can take them out on the track is an Instructor. They get to see people prepping the cars, sit in on classroom sessions, walk the track and just hang out, at a lesser price. They are usually escorted by an instructor that has just been made an instructor.
You can limit that group to any size you want. It brings in a lot of revenue.
I plan on joining the NSXCA, However, it isn't a must for me.
I hang out with the NSX guys here on what's getting to be a pretty regular basis.
Len
Bell turbo B18C1 said:
I personally regret this particular decision, and in fact made exactly your argument for NSXPO99, but I support the right of the event organizers to make the decision. You put in the work, you get to make the call.
Please get one thing straight: this has nothing to do with being snobby. It may have something to do with being stubborn, but that's another discussion.
The rationale has been adequately explained here. No, it's not fair that you'd have to pay $300 to attend a few hours, but this situation is commonplace in all kinds of seminars and conventions. Only a minority offer a la carte pricing, because IT'S TOO MUCH WORK. That doesn't make them snobs.
Over the years the club has lost many members who were unwilling to accept decisions they strongly disagreed with, and this is regrettably normal for NSX owners, who I have found are used to getting their own way. Are you one of these? (By the way, some of these guys were real assets to the club before they left.)
Nobody needs to be embarrassed about the club no matter how many decisions you disagree with. It's just a club, not a marriage. Give us some slack.
In norcal, BMWCCA would let members drive anything in their events. I drove my MR2. But that was not a national annual meet.
Incidentally, if I had been in your position, I would have asked humbly and privately for permission to attend briefly. You catch more flies with honey, and in this case without demanding a policy change that would create a massive amount of extra work for some tired volunteers.
AndyVecsey said:
I don't post a lot but this is rediculous. First of all it was just a few questions asked about the event, and you have made it crystal clear, it's basically "all or nothing". I don't see how..."people want something for nothing" when all some of us want to do is check out the cars and various vendors. How is that getting something for nothing? I can give a rats ass if the event is serving filet mignon and lobster. Point is, nobody is asking for the whole event to be catered to individual(s) who wants to just possibly meet, hear, or see certain things. I don't see what the big deal is. Don't get me wrong, I know that lots of hard working man hours have been used to put this event together. All I'm saying is that some rules "could" be reworked to accommodate other fellow NSX'ers to attract an even bigger turnout. Judging from all of this, I most likely will never attend and NSXPO event given the ridge stardards and rules in standing. In closing I have one last saying that I know to be true to this day......"Many new and old customers come and go. I for one is one of the ones who will not go and I'm sure that, there are many that will concur. Lots of potential customers new and old usually goes to and establishment by word of mouth!" But what do I know right? Wrong, more than you think.
Re: Please count to 10, and then to another 10 ....
Sorry to see my innocent thread go to this level. Thank you Hrant for keeping the peace.
I am not sure who are the organizers for NSXPO are but I am sure everyone is doing their best in putting together this special event.
Not sure how the rules were adopted for NSXPO but if it was done by voting, was it done by having all the members of NSXCA vote on various topics? If I join NSXCA, what would have happened if I suggested that we open the event to spectators? Would you have all the members vote on it and see if 51% or more agree or disagree before the rule gets put into effect? How would somebody go about making suggestions for changes either for this years NSXPO or future NSXPO's?
Change is good! Without it, how would we ever know the true success of NSXPO?
Hrant said:
Sorry to see my innocent thread go to this level. Thank you Hrant for keeping the peace.
I am not sure who are the organizers for NSXPO are but I am sure everyone is doing their best in putting together this special event.
Not sure how the rules were adopted for NSXPO but if it was done by voting, was it done by having all the members of NSXCA vote on various topics? If I join NSXCA, what would have happened if I suggested that we open the event to spectators? Would you have all the members vote on it and see if 51% or more agree or disagree before the rule gets put into effect? How would somebody go about making suggestions for changes either for this years NSXPO or future NSXPO's?
Change is good! Without it, how would we ever know the true success of NSXPO?
I am an NSXCA member too, I only want to visit the vendors to check and buy new stuff for my NSX. I also want to check out the track events with my friends who want to buy NSX & who previously owned NSX. I hope the organizers find a solution to accomodate us.
Also, is it OK for me to just join for the group drive on Wednesday?
Or do I have to pay $300 to drive on the public road?
Also, is it OK for me to just join for the group drive on Wednesday?
Or do I have to pay $300 to drive on the public road?
Yellow Rose
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No / Yes / Wrong
I am expecting an all out attack from Andy and Ken.....
Not from me, I've said my part.
.....but hey I wouldn't have expressed my opinion if I could NOT take the feedback.
Sage advice, thanks.
If you didn’t enjoy it or feel it was worth doing then you would bail out. Oh, that’s right, Andy did.
That is a rediculously false statement. I worked on NSXPO 2002 for over a year leading up to the event, well past bedtime and up early during the event and dealt with residual issues for a couple of months afterwards. You tell me how that is "bailing out". For the record, I am not involved with NSXPO 2003 at all, because I was not asked by that region's planning team.
I am expecting an all out attack from Andy and Ken.....
Not from me, I've said my part.
.....but hey I wouldn't have expressed my opinion if I could NOT take the feedback.
Sage advice, thanks.
If you didn’t enjoy it or feel it was worth doing then you would bail out. Oh, that’s right, Andy did.
That is a rediculously false statement. I worked on NSXPO 2002 for over a year leading up to the event, well past bedtime and up early during the event and dealt with residual issues for a couple of months afterwards. You tell me how that is "bailing out". For the record, I am not involved with NSXPO 2003 at all, because I was not asked by that region's planning team.
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As Hrant suggested, let's all take a deep breath and step back a minute. Too often, people (myself included at times) see the Internet as a boxing ring, where they are braced for combat. In fact, we're all individuals, just trying to get our point across, and those who are working on behalf of an event and an organization are just trying to do what makes the most sense for the participants and members (and, yes, prospective members). We're not always right, and we don't always make the best decision, but we're trying.
Regarding the spectator issue, and the possibility of attending for one day, we hear you. We're discussing possible ways of addressing the proposals and needs that have been expressed here. If we can work it out in a way that makes sense, we will.
Those who are asking for these new arrangements should also understand that it is much more difficult to implement anything new three weeks before the event, than it would have been a couple of months ago, when the topic first came up. Again, we are trying to figure out what we can do within the very short time frame remaining. If we can make it work, we will.
Those who are blasting the NSX Club of America for a single policy at a single event are, IMHO, extremely short-sighted. For one thing, we are trying very hard to come up with the best policies, the best benefits, and the best events for our membership - within the constraints that we face. Those constraints often dictate what we can do. We do not have 100K members or a seven-figure operating budget like BMW CCA, and we cannot afford the salaried staff that they can. NSXCA depends on the work of volunteers who receive no compensation and very little appreciation. For many of our activities, including NSXPO, money is not the issue; staffing is the issue. We have a committee that nominally has 30 people on it, but only about half that number is really spending any time on the event, and most have full-time jobs and can only spend a limited amount of time on it. Any proposal that involves additional work - keeping track of who has signed up for what (work goes up with the number of different activities/meals you have to keep track of), making sure that only those signed up are participating in something that costs money - becomes a problem because of our limited amount of people. Maybe sometimes there is a way we can handle it without incurring an unacceptable amount of work, and we will consider it; but some of these proposals are just not practical given our limited staffing. Which, again, larger organizations don't have.
Saying "I don't want to be a part of NSXCA because I don't like the policies at NSXPO" ignores everything that is going on there, and in other club activities. It's like saying "I don't want to be a part of NSXCA because Joe Schmoe (or Ken Sax) is one of the people involved in it". Virtually any organization has something or someone associated with it that people dislike. If you look for something you don't like, you'll find it anywhere. But consider all that you DO like about an organization in deciding whether you want to be a part of it. The NSXCA offers events and activities, including NSXPO and other local and regional activities. If you've never gone to these activities, you don't know what they're like or how much fun they are, so don't flame them. The NSXCA offers other benefits - a great newsletter, vendor discounts, etc. Many people join for just one particular aspect of the club. Some people join because they want to be part of the only sizable non-profit organization that represents NSX owners, and we all know how few our numbers are. There are many reasons to be a member of the NSX Club. If any of those reasons are enough to make you a member, then please join. If you don't enjoy your membership overall, then don't be a member. But if you only look for something to dislike, you might be missing other aspects of the club that you would enjoy immensely.
As for the comment from sjs that NSXPO is "for the organizers", nothing could be further from the truth. Being one of the organizers for NSXPO is, in many ways, one of the most unpleasant things I have ever done, and I know that many folks feel similarly about it. It includes working with some people that you detest working with, who beat each other up every bit as much as NSXprime members here are beating up the organizers. The Midwest Region of NSXCA stopped having activities for most of the past two years because of ill will from holding NSXPO 2001. Some of us weren't even speaking to each other for months after that event. There is no glory, and very little fun, in organizing the event. We do it for the participants. We do it because we see 200+ people at the event having the time of their lives. All the work we do is so that someone else can have fun. So please don't kid yourself into thinking that there is some kind of insider clique that benefits from this. Just ain't so.
I also disagree strongly with sjs when he says,
"But my point is that saying anyone not working of the project has no say in how it is organized is a piss poor attitude to have. Why should I need to be on the board or participate in the project to make a suggestion, or for that matter campaign for change? That attitude alone makes the rest of this sadly predictable."
What this ignores is that we do listen to people, and we do use their suggestions. We learn things with each NSXPO. Sure, not everyone can work on behalf of NSXPO, but we do listen. My point in mentioning those who had not done so was to note that there are obstacles and constraints to some of the suggestions being made, and blithely saying that we should do such-and-such sometimes ignores the practical reasons why it is not as easy as claimed - things we learn with experience. This is our seventh NSXPO, and each one has changes based on the previous year's experience. Those who do not have the experience of organizing these events with the previously-noted limited manpower do not always understand what is involved. Some of the suggestions from non-organizers are good ones, and ones that we implement. That's why we now allow people to sign up with the track event without signing up for the social activities. And we will try to do what we can to consider the statements that folks here have made, and maybe come up with some new solutions.
We also realize that not everyone can work on an NSXPO. Not everyone can come to an NSXPO. Some club members are happy just paying dues and receiving the newsletter. But almost all of those who come to NSXPO have a great time. There are many things that are being done right, that the participants are enjoying. And we are all trying our hardest to do things right so that our members will continue to enjoy our events. Please - cut us some slack and give us a chance to consider your suggestions.
DISCLAIMER: I am one of the people working on behalf of NSXPO 2003 as well as the NSX Club of America, but the opinions I express here are my own and not those of this event or organization.
Regarding the spectator issue, and the possibility of attending for one day, we hear you. We're discussing possible ways of addressing the proposals and needs that have been expressed here. If we can work it out in a way that makes sense, we will.
Those who are asking for these new arrangements should also understand that it is much more difficult to implement anything new three weeks before the event, than it would have been a couple of months ago, when the topic first came up. Again, we are trying to figure out what we can do within the very short time frame remaining. If we can make it work, we will.
Those who are blasting the NSX Club of America for a single policy at a single event are, IMHO, extremely short-sighted. For one thing, we are trying very hard to come up with the best policies, the best benefits, and the best events for our membership - within the constraints that we face. Those constraints often dictate what we can do. We do not have 100K members or a seven-figure operating budget like BMW CCA, and we cannot afford the salaried staff that they can. NSXCA depends on the work of volunteers who receive no compensation and very little appreciation. For many of our activities, including NSXPO, money is not the issue; staffing is the issue. We have a committee that nominally has 30 people on it, but only about half that number is really spending any time on the event, and most have full-time jobs and can only spend a limited amount of time on it. Any proposal that involves additional work - keeping track of who has signed up for what (work goes up with the number of different activities/meals you have to keep track of), making sure that only those signed up are participating in something that costs money - becomes a problem because of our limited amount of people. Maybe sometimes there is a way we can handle it without incurring an unacceptable amount of work, and we will consider it; but some of these proposals are just not practical given our limited staffing. Which, again, larger organizations don't have.
Saying "I don't want to be a part of NSXCA because I don't like the policies at NSXPO" ignores everything that is going on there, and in other club activities. It's like saying "I don't want to be a part of NSXCA because Joe Schmoe (or Ken Sax) is one of the people involved in it". Virtually any organization has something or someone associated with it that people dislike. If you look for something you don't like, you'll find it anywhere. But consider all that you DO like about an organization in deciding whether you want to be a part of it. The NSXCA offers events and activities, including NSXPO and other local and regional activities. If you've never gone to these activities, you don't know what they're like or how much fun they are, so don't flame them. The NSXCA offers other benefits - a great newsletter, vendor discounts, etc. Many people join for just one particular aspect of the club. Some people join because they want to be part of the only sizable non-profit organization that represents NSX owners, and we all know how few our numbers are. There are many reasons to be a member of the NSX Club. If any of those reasons are enough to make you a member, then please join. If you don't enjoy your membership overall, then don't be a member. But if you only look for something to dislike, you might be missing other aspects of the club that you would enjoy immensely.
As for the comment from sjs that NSXPO is "for the organizers", nothing could be further from the truth. Being one of the organizers for NSXPO is, in many ways, one of the most unpleasant things I have ever done, and I know that many folks feel similarly about it. It includes working with some people that you detest working with, who beat each other up every bit as much as NSXprime members here are beating up the organizers. The Midwest Region of NSXCA stopped having activities for most of the past two years because of ill will from holding NSXPO 2001. Some of us weren't even speaking to each other for months after that event. There is no glory, and very little fun, in organizing the event. We do it for the participants. We do it because we see 200+ people at the event having the time of their lives. All the work we do is so that someone else can have fun. So please don't kid yourself into thinking that there is some kind of insider clique that benefits from this. Just ain't so.
I also disagree strongly with sjs when he says,
"But my point is that saying anyone not working of the project has no say in how it is organized is a piss poor attitude to have. Why should I need to be on the board or participate in the project to make a suggestion, or for that matter campaign for change? That attitude alone makes the rest of this sadly predictable."
What this ignores is that we do listen to people, and we do use their suggestions. We learn things with each NSXPO. Sure, not everyone can work on behalf of NSXPO, but we do listen. My point in mentioning those who had not done so was to note that there are obstacles and constraints to some of the suggestions being made, and blithely saying that we should do such-and-such sometimes ignores the practical reasons why it is not as easy as claimed - things we learn with experience. This is our seventh NSXPO, and each one has changes based on the previous year's experience. Those who do not have the experience of organizing these events with the previously-noted limited manpower do not always understand what is involved. Some of the suggestions from non-organizers are good ones, and ones that we implement. That's why we now allow people to sign up with the track event without signing up for the social activities. And we will try to do what we can to consider the statements that folks here have made, and maybe come up with some new solutions.
We also realize that not everyone can work on an NSXPO. Not everyone can come to an NSXPO. Some club members are happy just paying dues and receiving the newsletter. But almost all of those who come to NSXPO have a great time. There are many things that are being done right, that the participants are enjoying. And we are all trying our hardest to do things right so that our members will continue to enjoy our events. Please - cut us some slack and give us a chance to consider your suggestions.
DISCLAIMER: I am one of the people working on behalf of NSXPO 2003 as well as the NSX Club of America, but the opinions I express here are my own and not those of this event or organization.
Ken,
This is certainly no the first time this subject has come up so let's not make like it's something new. I personally raised it prior to the 2001 event and others voiced support for my views then. Surely we were not the first in all these years. Interestingly, I've recently been told that last year the policy was loosened and some spectators were allowed in. If that's true, then there is all the more reason to question the current policy and in particular the motivation or mindset behind it.
I'm not stupid, I realize the amount of work that goes into this, and I don't doubt that beneath the surface there is a belief that the decisions are justified. But that doesn’t necessarily make it better. My remark about being “…for the organizers” was used primarily because I liked the way it sounded, and although a bit over the top I do think that when the final decision on this topic was taken (year after year), that decision was made based on what you wanted, not what is best for club members.
As for judging the club based largely on this one event, I most certainly will. Other than the newsletter, I have no involvement and there are no activities in my area. (nor do I wish to organize any) So when the single biggest club event of the year specifically excludes members in the way discussed here, what else do I have to go on? That's like a car company asking not to be judged by their flagship when the wheels fall off.
Steve
This is certainly no the first time this subject has come up so let's not make like it's something new. I personally raised it prior to the 2001 event and others voiced support for my views then. Surely we were not the first in all these years. Interestingly, I've recently been told that last year the policy was loosened and some spectators were allowed in. If that's true, then there is all the more reason to question the current policy and in particular the motivation or mindset behind it.
I'm not stupid, I realize the amount of work that goes into this, and I don't doubt that beneath the surface there is a belief that the decisions are justified. But that doesn’t necessarily make it better. My remark about being “…for the organizers” was used primarily because I liked the way it sounded, and although a bit over the top I do think that when the final decision on this topic was taken (year after year), that decision was made based on what you wanted, not what is best for club members.
As for judging the club based largely on this one event, I most certainly will. Other than the newsletter, I have no involvement and there are no activities in my area. (nor do I wish to organize any) So when the single biggest club event of the year specifically excludes members in the way discussed here, what else do I have to go on? That's like a car company asking not to be judged by their flagship when the wheels fall off.
Steve
Any volunteers?
Personally, I have no problem if Ken made this decision, because as registrar he's the one who would have to do most of the extra work for a la carte pricing.
I have no idea what potential solution Ken and Hrant are kicking around, but in case they come up one which requires more work, it would be nice if there were already a list here of people volunteering to do that extra work. Hint, hint.
Here's your chance to show some club spirit...
Personally, I have no problem if Ken made this decision, because as registrar he's the one who would have to do most of the extra work for a la carte pricing.
I have no idea what potential solution Ken and Hrant are kicking around, but in case they come up one which requires more work, it would be nice if there were already a list here of people volunteering to do that extra work. Hint, hint.
Here's your chance to show some club spirit...
Steve,
Please re-read this part of my previous post:
Please re-read this part of my previous post:
EDIT: We expect to resolve it this weekend, and any changes resulting from those discussions will be announced at that time.
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nsxtasy said:
I read it, I understood it, and I appreciated it, but I didn't think the horse was quite dead yet with various statements left hanging unanswered (OK, un-challenged). Surely you of all people understand such things.
