Can a black man or any other minority own a NSX without getting hassled?

[Marvin Lee]

I know that this question seems odd for a car lovers board but here we do discuss ALL various topics of car ownership from maintance to events to daily experiences. It is ONE of these daily experiences that I want your feedback.

Can a minority own a flashy car such as a NSX, Viper, Vette etc. without the harrassment of police, State Troopers etc? I base this not on my dream of owning the NSX but from past experiences with my red 3rd gen RX-7. Allow me to answer a few things that may be asked.

1) At the times I have been followed I was not speeding, weaving through lanes etc.

2) 99% of the times I've been pulled over it's been in residential areas where I'm only doing about 10 to 15 mph before I was stopped for a "routine stop".

3) The car was not ghetto'd or riced out (large rims, lowered, booming system etc.)

4) I was never dressed in "profile clothes" (Gang colors, dew rags, big gold chains etc.) To be honest I dress fairly basic (jeans- Color T-shirt.)

5) All my tags, insurance were up to date as well as no broken tail lights etc.)

Also I do live in Birmingham, Al. but before people are quick to make this a Southern neck type of thing I have had more problems up north and in the mid-west then I have ever had in the South.

A friend of mine on the police force said..."Black man (or Hispanic I look Hispanic)driving a flashy or expensive car WILL GET PULLED OVER PERIOD.)

I work hard and should not be denied the pleasure of driving without being followed by 5.0 for a few miles to see if I do something wrong.

Can I expect more of this? Are their other minorities on this board that have found ways around this?

 

[O-Ace]

I don't think you will get hassled because you're driving a flashy car. It may also depend on what area you're driving through.

------------------
2001 QuickSilver Corvette Coupe - Not Stock [503 RWHP, 545 RWTQ]

2002 Black Acura 3.2 TL/S

www.RacingFlix.com

 

[Sig]

Marvin-

I am about as white as they come, and everything you listed happens to me too. However, once I am pulled over and get engaged in dialogue... there aren't any problems. This of course is true for stops of the non-speeding kind. I don't get any slack on those.
That being said I live in a fairly nice area in the Va suburbs of DC. There isn't too much crime around my area and the police have always pulled over folks in fast cars to help their "revenue enhancement" programs. However, being from Alabama, there is a much different dynamic down there among law enforcement and parts of the community. I would hope the police don't make it that big of an issue for you, but if they do... well, that's a shame. Move up here, you won't be hassled!

There are are others on this forum that are in a better situation to respond with first hand experience on the minority front.

 

[len3.8]

Happened to me often in California, and it still happens to me in St. Louis, Mo.
Though Missouri has a profiling law now, it has slowed considerably. They don'y get me down though, just as posted before, I just get into a dialouge and it's usually just a routine stop or they come up with something.
I play their game until it's over. Shame you have to. I just deal. Last weekend it was in front of 10-15 other cars, The reason was no front plate. Which I was guilty but so were about 8 of the other cars. I just smiled and said the bracket was on order. He reluctantly said okay. Because he realized that he would have to write up the other cars as well. I think he really wanted to look at the car, that happens as well.
Don't stop driving though. Some neighborhoods I simply will not go in, for I know what is going to happen.
Buy what you want and drive the hell out of it. Just be careful with the law.
I think in a lot of the instances, The tone the officer takes determines the way you take the stop. ie: who's car is this, what are you doing in this neighborhood, do you mind if I search your car.ect. ect. ect.
If he is doing this before telling you what you did for him to pull you over than something may be up. If he says I pulled you over due to the fact that >>>> then you have to give the benefit of the doubt.
Len
n9s5x-t

[This message has been edited by len3.8 (edited 03 October 2002).]

 

[RSO 34]

Anyone can get "hassled" in any type of car at any time regardless of their race. Not so long ago when I still had a full of head of hair I generally wore it fairly long and that would seem to attract the attention of some local town police. I would get followed through neighboring towns as I drove a 300ZX or an S class Mercedes, I would always be the "random car" stopped at DWI checkpoints and I generally would get an extra glance from passing police officers.

It was obvious to me that I was being "profiled" despite being a white male because I had long blonde hair, wore jeans and a sweatshirt and drove a sports/luxury car in a nice clean cut Waspy area.

I didn't mind because after getting pulled over I enjoyed the look on the face of the officer who realized that I have lived in the area for 15 years and I am an attorney with lots of state and city police ID cards on me as a result of working with State Troopers over the years.

Profiling will always be used and it has its good and bad points but I would not jump to the conclusion that a minority luxury/exotic car owner could not own one without being hassled.

 

[Marvin Lee]

Very good points made.

I never thought that sometimes you can get pulled over just because the officer in question just wanted to look at the car. They do the same for a hot looking woman. Hell I guess if I had the power I'd do it too.

ON THE OTHER HAND from the posts above watching which neighborhoods you go through, playing THEIR game etc. That just isn't right. I would also like to say again that this is not a Southern neck thing. I've had more trouble up North. I also don't doubt that minorities arn't the only people that get profiled BUT as a whole minorities do have to justify themselves for what they have, how they have it and why they are where they are.

"For anybody that doubts that racism isn't as bad as its always been remember this...I have never had a white person want to trade lives with me...and I'm rich!"

-Chris Rock.

I do like the fact that common likes goals etc make people forget about petty stuff such as racism. That's why I like car guys. it's all about the cars man!!!!

 

[sansnsx]

Originally posted by RSO 34:
Anyone can get "hassled" in any type of car at any time regardless of their race.


Profiling will always be used and it has its good and bad points but I would not jump to the conclusion that a minority luxury/exotic car owner could not own one without being hassled.

I am about as white as they come, and everything you listed happens to me too. However, being from Alabama, there is a much different dynamic down there among law enforcement and parts of the community. I would hope the police don't make it that big of an issue for you, but if they do... well, that's a shame. Move up here, you won't be hassled!

Racial profiling is a fact of life in the United States. The practice has become so widespread that the Department of Justice (DOJ)convened a committee to study the problem and has encouraged local police organizations to compile data to determine the extent of the problem. Perhaps the worst example is right here in the North on the NJ Turnpike. The NJ Attorney General compiled statistics that indicated that "people of color" constitued 40.6% of the stops made on the turnpike and 77.2% of those searched while only 13.5% of the drivers on the turnpike were minorites. This was in the DOJ report. So to say that whites are stoped as much as blacks is simply not true and flies in the face of the empirical evidence. Also, this did not happen in Alabama so "moving up here" is not a solution. I should state for the record that I am a white male but I have several black friends. They call the practice of getting stopped "DWB"-- driving while black. In fact one of my black friends in NJ has a 911 and when I go anywhere with him he insists that I drive.

 

[len3.8]

Originally posted by Marvin Lee:
Very good points made.

I never thought that sometimes you can get pulled over just because the officer in question just wanted to look at the car. They do the same for a hot looking woman. Hell I guess if I had the power I'd do it too.

ON THE OTHER HAND from the posts above watching which neighborhoods you go through, playing THEIR game etc. That just isn't right. I would also like to say again that this is not a Southern neck thing. I've had more trouble up North. I also don't doubt that minorities arn't the only people that get profiled BUT as a whole minorities do have to justify themselves for what they have, how they have it and why they are where they are.


I do like the fact that common likes goals etc make people forget about petty stuff such as racism. That's why I like car guys. it's all about the cars man!!!!

I know that it isn't right. I am also smart enough to know that some things have to be taken for what they are in that situation. I don't go through the neighborhoods that I am more likely to get pulled over in. I understand that at that point in which they have you pulled over they are in control, I don't carry a video recorder so I simply comply. I carry a micro cassette though.
Like you I just love CARS, I don't waste too much time with knuckleheads or their views, I
listen to them so I know, but make no mistake I don't let it get to me that often.
Just another hurdle, and in my eyes I am Moses Malone. I tend to knock one down once in awhile though.
Most of the time they feel they are doing there job. As for standards, I do the best that I can and expect it from everyone, regardless. If my ability is still in question, I ask to be shown the right way.
DWB, Profiling, I am going to drive my NSX today.

Len
n9s5x-t



[This message has been edited by len3.8 (edited 03 October 2002).]

 

[BostonNSX]

I saw a Black person with a silver modena got pulled over at NewBurry st.

I wonder if the police would do the same thing to a white guy. Because I think he didnt do any violations..

 

[RSO 34]

I don't think anyone has stated that whites are stopped as often as non-whites. The overall tenor of the posts has been that it can happen to anyone, but undoubtedly in most parts of the country the unfortunate truth is that minorities will be stopped more often.

But a certain amount of profiling happens all the time and is necessary in certain instances. For example, the FBI for years has used "profiling" when looking for serial killers in an effort to narrow the pool of potential suspects. This should not be confused with the abuse of the concept by certain localities, such as in NJ, to pull over most minorities just because they are "DWB."

The problem with the abuse of the concept of "profiling" is that, for example, the airports can get all jammed up by "random" checks to make passengers more comfortable with the appearance of security measures in place. The simple fact is that 80 year grandmothers are not hijacking planes but we are careful not to "offend" any groups by "profiling" certain other groups who would be the likely source of terrorist activities.

Any abuse of process/civil rights is unacceptable but unfortunately "profiles" are generated from statistics that can be used to "justify" these types of "stop and question" operations. If used properly, and that is something that appears to be extremely difficult in the field, a "profile" may be the only lead to resolve a particular crime. Generally, one would not expect a member of the Hasidic community to be a gang banger nor would you look at your local clergy as being the mastermind behind all the cars being boosted in the area.

The bottom line is, drive your cars and if you get pulled over, be polite, show your license and registration and be comfortable in the fact that you earned that car and are able to drive something that officer may only get a chance to be close too if he pulls you over.

 

[Sig]

Guess what, I just got pulled over coming back from lunch! The reason, get this: going to slow over a speed bump.

Of course, I didn't get a ticket for something so ridiculous, but that's not to say he didn't try to find something. He did a full visual inspection of my car... including looking under the rear to see if I had cats. Keep in mind, I have OEM exhaust w/ cats... very quiet like. Apparently, going too slow over speed bumps on a shopping center service road is dangerous because I could cause other people to rear-end eachother. I must have been DWN: Driving While NSXticated. Usually it doesn't go that far, but even with polite and respectful replies the cop still wanted to find fault somewhere. Oh well, he must have been having a bad day.

 

[sansnsx]

Originally posted by RSO 34:
I don't think anyone has stated that whites are stopped as often as non-whites. The overall tenor of the posts has been that it can happen to anyone, but undoubtedly in most parts of the country the unfortunate truth is that minorities will be stopped more often.

But a certain amount of profiling happens all the time and is necessary in certain instances. For example, the FBI for years has used "profiling" when looking for serial killers in an effort to narrow the pool of potential suspects. This should not be confused with the abuse of the concept by certain localities, such as in NJ, to pull over most minorities just because they are "DWB."

The problem with the abuse of the concept of "profiling" is that, for example, the airports can get all jammed up by "random" checks to make passengers more comfortable with the appearance of security measures in place. The simple fact is that 80 year grandmothers are not hijacking planes but we are careful not to "offend" any groups by "profiling" certain other groups who would be the likely source of terrorist activities.

Any abuse of process/civil rights is unacceptable but unfortunately "profiles" are generated from statistics that can be used to "justify" these types of "stop and question" operations. If used properly, and that is something that appears to be extremely difficult in the field, a "profile" may be the only lead to resolve a particular crime. Generally, one would not expect a member of the Hasidic community to be a gang banger nor would you look at your local clergy as being the mastermind behind all the cars being boosted in the area.

The bottom line is, drive your cars and if you get pulled over, be polite, show your license and registration and be comfortable in the fact that you earned that car and are able to drive something that officer may only get a chance to be close too if he pulls you over.

RSO 34
I was referring to racial profiling (which by the way is illegal) not the profiling that is done every day by honest police officers who are solving crimes. I am an attorney and I have a background in law enforcement so I understand the difference. I'm afraid you do not.

Where I worked in my prior life we had profiles to spot drug dealers, Yakuza (organized crime members), people with concealed weapons, etc. but again this was not racial profiling. Race was not even a factor in the things we looked for. C'mon profiling to find a serial killer is light years removed from racial profiling. No one would complain about this type of profiling.

For many Blacks it is a real problem and you just can't say drive your car and deal with it. Too many people I know have suffered the indignity of being stopped and harassed simply becasue they were black. As a middle aged white man, I have never been stopped for anything except obvious traffic law violations. To many of my Black friends have been stopped for nothing at all.

Chris Rock is right!!!

 

[RSO 34]

Sansnsx,

I'll let this be my last post to avoid any more misinterpretations. I, too, am an attorney and understand the different meanings/nuances associated with the word/concept of "profiling." Racial profiling is illegal but race, etc. does play a role in everyday policing and does not get challenged unless it is the only factor in stopping an individual.

My suggestion to "drive your cars" merely was meant to be applied to all persons not to be afraid to drive whatever car you want and don't refrain from buying/driving a car because of a fear you might be pulled over. I am not suggesting that you tolerate illegal behavior on behalf of the police but I am also not suggesting that you cower in fear that you might be pulled over and thereby avoid driving whatever you want.

I am glad that you have not been pulled over unnecessarily by the police but that does happen based upon looks regardless of race. As I mentioned earlier, I am a white male but have long hair as well as facial hair and generally do not look like a lawyer if I am not wearing a suit. I have been mistaken equally as a narc and a dealer depending upon the neighborhood and have been stopped for my "look" if I am not in a suit.

All I am saying is live your life the way you want to and don't change what you do just because of a fear of how you will appear to others who may be motivated by personal prejudices. Report injustices to the appropriate authorities at every instance but drive your NSX, regardless of the color of the car or your skin, with pride and don't refrain from taking it out because otherwise you have succumbed to the intolerances of a few small minded individuals.



[This message has been edited by RSO 34 (edited 03 October 2002).]

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by Sig:
Guess what, I just got pulled over coming back from lunch! The reason, get this: going to slow over a speed bump.

Was this on private property (mall or restaurant parking lot)? It was my understanding that traffic laws have no jurisdiction on private property, only public roads and parking lots. So you can't get ticketed for blowing past a stop sign at the shopping mall, or so I thought. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Sig]

Phoenix-

I didn't get a ticket, just pulled over. The road is not private property, the section of the road that wraps around a section of a shopping center has speed bumps on it. The practice of speed hump installation on 25mph roads has gained a lot of popularity in these parts lately. Argh.

On the profiling note, two of my best friends are black and have not had any problems in this department in my area. Perhaps they have been lucky, but as stated earlier.. this has been my perception as well for this area. That said, boy racer civics in this area get messed with like you wouldn't believe, regardless of race. More often than not, they get small possesion drug busts out of that profile (boy racer civics), so it continues. This comes from reading the local papers and observation not personal experience.

 

[sansnsx]

Originally posted by PHOEN$X:
Was this on private property (mall or restaurant parking lot)? It was my understanding that traffic laws have no jurisdiction on private property, only public roads and parking lots. So you can't get ticketed for blowing past a stop sign at the shopping mall, or so I thought. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

PHOENIX
This is incorrect at least in New York. Section 1100 of the NY State Vehicle & Traffic Laws states that the traffic laws apply to private roads open to public motor vehicle traffic. The courts have interpreted this to mean any road that a car can travel on. The traffic laws also apply to parking lots. Almost every state has similiar laws. So, please Phoenix, no more blowing through stop signs at the Mall.

RSO 34
I agree.

 

[Marvin Lee]

Ya have to admit this is at least an interesting topic. Funny thing is that I have not read one post from any type of minority here. The day is still young though.

There is also car profiling. where a car looks too poor/beat up to be in a particular neighborhood or too nice/ flashy to be in a poor neighborhood. Here in Hoover Al. (A division of Birmingham) I see more car profiling than anything BUT I know the face behind the wheel also comes into play. All are wrong but necessary. Racial or economic profiling is not wrong when used by a person to protect themselves or when the party doing the profiling has no power over the person being profiled.

Example:

If I'm walking down a dark street late at night and see a scary dude black/ white whatever. I will profile this person as a potential threat to my safety. Same can be said to a group of scary people pulling up next to me giving me that "I want your car look."

I KNOW YOU NSXers HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT AT LEAST ONCE. Although not PC this is human nature and is not wrong because I'm not in a position to hold power over said person or group. Having the power and profiling is what makes this situation wrong.

 

[sansnsx]

Originally posted by Marvin Lee:
Ya have to admit this is at least an interesting topic. Funny thing is that I have not read one post from any type of minority here. The day is still young though.

There is also car profiling. where a car looks too poor/beat up to be in a particular neighborhood or too nice/ flashy to be in a poor neighborhood. Here in Hoover Al. (A division of Birmingham) I see more car profiling than anything BUT I know the face behind the wheel also comes into play. All are wrong but necessary. Racial or economic profiling is not wrong when used by a person to protect themselves or when the party doing the profiling has no power over the person being profiled.

Example:

If I'm walking down a dark street late at night and see a scary dude black/ white whatever. I will profile this person as a potential threat to my safety. Same can be said to a group of scary people pulling up next to me giving me that "I want your car look."

I KNOW YOU NSXers HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT AT LEAST ONCE. Although not PC this is human nature and is not wrong because I'm not in a position to hold power over said person or group. Having the power and profiling is what makes this situation wrong.

Marvin Lee
It is a very interesting topic. But I must point out (sorry I can't help it as a lawyer) that racial profiling is wrong, illegal and unconstitutional. The courts have ruled that the police may not use race or ethnicity as factors in selecting who to stop and search. Again Racial profiling is a term for police-initiated action or someone with police powers taking action against an individual based solely on race and not the behavior of the individual. By definition a private citizen cannot engage in racial profiling. What you are referrring to as stereotyping and yes everybody does it. To be honest when I fly, I stereotype certain groups. And secretly, I hope that they were profiled (by the authorities) and thoroughly searched. And, I consider myself a liberal.

 

[burbel]

Well, just figured I would chime in on this from my experiences in Texas. I am white (well, off-white), but a good friend of mine when I worked at a summer job at Dell was Hispanic. He drove cautiously, and had a black Toyota, whatever their competitor to the Del Sol was. He was pulled over for a "routine stop", while going the speed limit, while his car was searched. What's more, he was forced to lie face-down on the blacktop with his hands behind his head during the procedure - don't know about up there, but down here in the summer the black top is very hot. When he came in he had tar spots on his shirt, and was very upset, but didn't want to complain and risk something else happening.

When I got pulled over for turning the wrong way on a one-way street downtown just after I got my NSX (just after waxing it, actually), with a Fillipino friend in the car, not only was I questioned, he was also questioned. When I mentioned we both worked at IBM, the officer visibly scoffed at the comment and ordered my friend out of the car. All this for almost going down Lavaca instead of the next block over; I caught it before I left the intersection... Lasted around 2 hours...

It happens, and it sucks - but I've never had any issues myself when alone...

 

[LJSB]

10 or 15 mph?
I didn't think anyone drove that slow unless they were in a golf cart.
Forget the police, the other drivers would be harassing me for going that slow.
The speed limit is looked upon by many as the minimum speed.
The police around here would pull you over thinking something was wrong (ie. drunk, lost,ill etc.) if you were going 10 or 15 mph. even in a residential neighborhood.

 

[NSX TT]

This happened to my wife ,while driving to work in my other car 300zx.actually the first time she got a headlight out.so is ok to be pulled over.but once the officer got to the car and saw my wife outfit.everything change,my wife work for the federal bureau of prisons ,so the officer gave her a break.but in two more occasion, she got pulled over for no reason at all.well actually maybe the fact of the car and the time "5 am" in the morning.maybe that was the reason.she got pulled over on way to work about 4 times already.once the officer told her ,that she was speeding.wich I really doubt.because she wouldn't like to get pulled over for something like that.as a matter of fact she is very cautious.I will call it profiling.

 

[fangtl]

I am a "minority," and I have never been "hasseled" by the police. Although I have had all the things you listed happen to me over the past year. I think you may just be a little too sensitive when it comes to the topic. Look, these guys are just out doing their jobs. Ease up.

 

[LJSB]

One thing to consider is that with it early evening/morning or night with any tint at all, the race of the operator of the vehicle could be unknown to the officer until they actually get to the driver's window.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by sansnsx:
So, please Phoenix, no more blowing through stop signs at the Mall.

Hehe, I am not that dumb to risk damaging my cars

However, I'll admit I have done California stops in empty parking lots before. My 13-year driving recard is squeaky clean though, and I've had no at-fault accidents.

Regarding the profiling thing, I think I've gotten more looks due to my age than anything. I've never been pulled over for it though, people probably just think I have rich parents or something.

[This message has been edited by PHOEN$X (edited 03 October 2002).]

 

[sansnsx]

Originally posted by fangtl:
I am a "minority," and I have never been "hasseled" by the police. Although I have had all the things you listed happen to me over the past year. I think you may just be a little too sensitive when it comes to the topic. Look, these guys are just out doing their jobs. Ease up.

Fangtl, If you had all the things done to you that Marvin Lee had done to him then you have been hasseled. Comments like "these guys are just doing there job" infuriate me. No one here is against police officers doing their jobs. However, racial profiling is not doing your job it is, I REPEAT, ILLEGAL. Illegal activity should not be part of any job description, especially a police officer's. When police officers engage in illegal activity people lose faith in the police and they are less apt to trust the police and report crimes. It undermines people's respect for the law and it is a factor (a small one, I admit) that contributes to an increase in crime. There is a huge body of evidence that supports this fact and I will not go into the evidence here. I have some experience in this matter as I have a law enforcement background. But just think about the last time any of you were stopped for driving your NSX (I had to get NSX in the discussion or risk being booted to off topic land) or other vehicle for doing nothing. Black or white, how did you feel?

Also, pbassjo this may be true in a small number of cases but if you look at the numbers on traffic stops, obviously something more is going on. In the NJ example, How can you explain that 40% of the people stopped are minorities? If it was merely random, the numbers would be close to the percentage of minorities that use the NJ Turnpike. Again this is 13%. Also, 77% of the people searched on the NJ Turnpike are minorities. I can tell you when they have stopped you and asked to search your vehicle they know what race you are whether you have tint or not.