Define 90%. Also the 918 is actually not in the same league as the P1 and LaFerrari if top speed/peak hp is the true determining factor. That would essentially mean, the NSX has to have ~800 hp according to the 90% performance target you state at $150K versus million dollar hypercars. Now, if you meant 0-60 or even 0-100 mph, then that may be more realistic in achieving as the GTR already has that covered pretty much.
Anticipated Performance / Modability
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Define 90%. Also the 918 is actually not in the same league as the P1 and LaFerrari if top speed/peak hp is the true determining factor. That would essentially mean, the NSX has to have ~800 hp according to the 90% performance target you state at $150K versus million dollar hypercars. Now, if you meant 0-60 or even 0-100 mph, then that may be more realistic in achieving as the GTR already has that covered pretty much.
Just tried it on the way to work this morning.
2.85 seconds. I'm on a Linney Ecutek tune, so I'm at around 570 crank. It's not the power, it's the gearing and AWD system.Other than the BMW i8, the NSX will be the cheapest semi-exotic hybrid vehicle when it debuts. I don't really put those two in the same category anyways....
NSX 2.0 will have a small market from existing NSX 1.0 owners, a small market of owners wanting a sporty hybrid, and a small market of people just wanting something different.
It's certainly not to flog on a track, as ANY hybrid vehicle's performance greatly suffers once the battery is depleted.
How will canyon runs and spirited driving change the vehicle dynamics once the battery is depleted? All that fancy torque-vectoring goes away and will greatly change the driving dynamics. A driver has to be prepared even with all the electronic nannies.
That's why I "spiritedly" test drove the RLX hybrid. I didn't like it. The NSX development team really has a challenge to integrate not only the hybrid components when you have a charged battery, but also when it is discharged and all you've got left are the two rear wheels (and still a lot of power).
I'm no longer in the market to purchase a new one initially, but I'm really curious to put one through it's paces. Acura should hold a track day somewhere for prospective customers. I would love to fly out and try one.
Other than that and looking at "numbers," I can buy the new Tesla Model S that does 0-60 in about 3.2 seconds for ~$105k. A lot more sophisticated than the new NSX. And it seats 5.
Dave
NSX 2.0 will have a small market from existing NSX 1.0 owners, a small market of owners wanting a sporty hybrid, and a small market of people just wanting something different.
It's certainly not to flog on a track, as ANY hybrid vehicle's performance greatly suffers once the battery is depleted.
How will canyon runs and spirited driving change the vehicle dynamics once the battery is depleted? All that fancy torque-vectoring goes away and will greatly change the driving dynamics. A driver has to be prepared even with all the electronic nannies.
That's why I "spiritedly" test drove the RLX hybrid. I didn't like it. The NSX development team really has a challenge to integrate not only the hybrid components when you have a charged battery, but also when it is discharged and all you've got left are the two rear wheels (and still a lot of power).
I'm no longer in the market to purchase a new one initially, but I'm really curious to put one through it's paces. Acura should hold a track day somewhere for prospective customers. I would love to fly out and try one.
Other than that and looking at "numbers," I can buy the new Tesla Model S that does 0-60 in about 3.2 seconds for ~$105k. A lot more sophisticated than the new NSX. And it seats 5.
Dave
Agree, Dave. However, I'm fairly sure Honda/Acura has sorted the hybrid integration on the NSX. If you recall, they ditched the original powerplant (based on the RLX) because of the exact issue you describe- the batteries ran out of juice a few laps into a track session. The new system is a lot closer to the P1/918 in terms of consistency of power. Instead of a hybrid-electric boosted by combustion, they flipped the concept to a high-output combustion boosted by electric and constant charging. I think everyone is going to be surprised.
The new NSX customer will be someone who wants a P1 type of experience, but at a price discount. Much like in 1990 their customer was someone who wanted a Ferrari 348, but at a hefty discount (plus MUCH better reliability). If the NSX can deliver even a fraction of the P1 experience, it will be a success. I think it will.
The new NSX customer will be someone who wants a P1 type of experience, but at a price discount. Much like in 1990 their customer was someone who wanted a Ferrari 348, but at a hefty discount (plus MUCH better reliability). If the NSX can deliver even a fraction of the P1 experience, it will be a success. I think it will.
What exactly did you not like? Did you drive it with the batteries charged and depleted? Any positives?
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The anticipation is killing me...also you sound like you have some inside knowledge?
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Not quite... Unless you have a Fisker, all output from the ICE is going to the wheels at WOT. Also at WOT, the traction motors are providing their maximum capacity based on the charge status of the battery. The only time the battery will recharge is under braking regeneration or the traction motor/generator hooked up to the gearbox. Therefore, under WOT, you will have electric power until the batteries are depleted. No more. Same thing happens to a P1 and 918 on the track, although the P1 does not have regenerative braking. Those both seem to give you about two laps on a 2.5 mile road course before the batteries are depleted (what do you expect - they are only 5-7 kW-hr packs). It's hard to believe the NSX will have much more capacity than that, due to cost and weight. Also, battery thermal management becomes a big problem too under heavy charge/discharge cycles.
The 918 is still being tweeked for hybrid integration and driving dynamics. Porsche has been on working on this a long time too!
No, it's simple physics. You can't get more out than what you put in. When driven hard, the batteries will deplete. Otherwise, the ICE will have to be running constantly at 3-4k RPMs to continuously charge the batteries for the brief periods when in low demand. With the new loud NSX exhaust note, that could get old real fast.
I still can't wait to drive one and I think it will be great around town. Still no replacement for my old NSX on the track though.
Dave
I would agree with Macattack. While hybrids are an engineering marvel and they will only get better, I'd still rather have all motor. Batteries can stay in the junk drawer for flashlights and marital novelties.:smile:
Wouldnt it be awesome if Acura does in fact make an all motor non hybrid? I think just a few tweaks here and there, the power output would far exceed those electric motors. Maybe Honda is here listening???? Honda, please make a non hybrid car with and twin turbo as an option.
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I would agree with Macattack. While hybrids are an engineering marvel and they will only get better, I'd still rather have all motor. Batteries can stay in the junk drawer for flashlights and marital novelties.:smile:
Wouldnt it be awesome if Acura does in fact make an all motor non hybrid? I think just a few tweaks here and there, the power output would far exceed those electric motors. Maybe Honda is here listening???? Honda, please make a non hybrid car with awd twin turbo as an option.
Wouldnt it be awesome if Acura does in fact make an all motor non hybrid? I think just a few tweaks here and there, the power output would far exceed those electric motors. Maybe Honda is here listening???? Honda, please make a non hybrid car with and twin turbo as an option.
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I would agree with Macattack. While hybrids are an engineering marvel and they will only get better, I'd still rather have all motor. Batteries can stay in the junk drawer for flashlights and marital novelties.:smile:
Wouldnt it be awesome if Acura does in fact make an all motor non hybrid? I think just a few tweaks here and there, the power output would far exceed those electric motors. Maybe Honda is here listening???? Honda, please make a non hybrid car with awd twin turbo as an option.
fastaussie
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Just tried it on the way to work this morning.
I just heard Car & Driver got a Lamborghini Huracan from 0 to 60 mph in 2.5 seconds. 610 horsepower, AWD and zero battery power...
fastaussie
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that car is a rabies infected V10 animal!
rumour has it the new R8 will be quicker than most people think also, as its 0 to 60 numbers of 3.2 seconds are very conservative.
it would appear the standard for any Supercar or Hypercar is a 0 to 60 time of 3.0 seconds or under. that being said, as many others have already stated, the new NSX will have to achieve this...
rumour has it the new R8 will be quicker than most people think also, as its 0 to 60 numbers of 3.2 seconds are very conservative.
it would appear the standard for any Supercar or Hypercar is a 0 to 60 time of 3.0 seconds or under. that being said, as many others have already stated, the new NSX will have to achieve this...
fastaussie
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I don't know how you can even manage to look at it. I presume you only drive it after dark and when you absolutely must... :biggrin:
My GT-R is also a 2.7 to 60 car. I never use it for that.
Post mods it will be closer to 2.4, but we are very much at the mercy of the tyres to go any faster.
I'm over the moon that the NSX is a hybrid. I'm even happier that the engine and gearbox are so far back. The traction off the line will put it in 911 turbo S territory, which the GT-R onlyh comes close to matching (in stock form) because of its shorter gearing.
I'm thinking with lower weight than the GT-R, 9 imperceptibly fast changing gears, electric 4WD and so much of the weight being over the rear, I think 2.5-2.6 purely for bragging rights will be on the cards.
Let's not dismiss electric torque and remember it only needs to be there in small quantites until the turbos do their thing.
I am intending to ultimately give the NSX close to the same power output as my GT-R. The GT-R is happy at 800bhp with its 3.8 V6, with forged internals you can make that 1000bhp if you know the right way to design an exhaust manifold and can choose your turbos appropriately can get them to spool faster than standard.
Add all that on to the NSX and you have a weapon that can still get amazing fuel consumption, and drive into your driveway at gone 1am making hardly any noise.
Anyone doubting this or worrying about not being able to go 10/10ths for more than a lap of the ring is much more of a lunatic driver than I'll ever be. One flying lap of the ring is plenty for my batteries!
Post mods it will be closer to 2.4, but we are very much at the mercy of the tyres to go any faster.
I'm over the moon that the NSX is a hybrid. I'm even happier that the engine and gearbox are so far back. The traction off the line will put it in 911 turbo S territory, which the GT-R onlyh comes close to matching (in stock form) because of its shorter gearing.
I'm thinking with lower weight than the GT-R, 9 imperceptibly fast changing gears, electric 4WD and so much of the weight being over the rear, I think 2.5-2.6 purely for bragging rights will be on the cards.
Let's not dismiss electric torque and remember it only needs to be there in small quantites until the turbos do their thing.
I am intending to ultimately give the NSX close to the same power output as my GT-R. The GT-R is happy at 800bhp with its 3.8 V6, with forged internals you can make that 1000bhp if you know the right way to design an exhaust manifold and can choose your turbos appropriately can get them to spool faster than standard.
Add all that on to the NSX and you have a weapon that can still get amazing fuel consumption, and drive into your driveway at gone 1am making hardly any noise.
Anyone doubting this or worrying about not being able to go 10/10ths for more than a lap of the ring is much more of a lunatic driver than I'll ever be. One flying lap of the ring is plenty for my batteries!
Agree. I'm being tuned by Ben Linney on Ecutek as we speak. Have to go out and do some datalogging later today. Difference already is amazing and my tires are giving up LOL.
It's hard to look at anything because my eyes are watering from the fearsome acceleration.
Ted Klaus flat out stated that the car will not allow the batteries to get completed depleted. Also remember that the inside front tire re-gens under cornering in addition to the braking re-gen.
Unless the NSX team went really conservative on electric motor output I think there will be scenarios where you feel less acceleration during a track session but a typical track is going to have enough braking zones that I can't imagine you're going to feel like you're dragging a boat anchor.
Acura won't have to that for the volume of cars they're going to make (around 800 for the first year). I wouldn't be surprised if they could sell every car for the first 3 or 4 years given the limited production numbers.
Honcho,
Ben is a really good guy, you are in safe hands.
I'm UK based to I get my tuning done by Litchfield, as far as the UK is concerned they are the GT-R masters.
When you start looking at turbo options, drop me a line, I've done a lot of research into the various kits and the differences between them is staggering. The EFR turbos in proper manifolds destroy everything else out there - 1000bhp and spool 200rpm faster than stock on the right manifold. The area under the curve is a thing of beauty.
That said, despite only just buying my fifth GT-R I'm still set on the NSX.
Ben is a really good guy, you are in safe hands.
I'm UK based to I get my tuning done by Litchfield, as far as the UK is concerned they are the GT-R masters.
When you start looking at turbo options, drop me a line, I've done a lot of research into the various kits and the differences between them is staggering. The EFR turbos in proper manifolds destroy everything else out there - 1000bhp and spool 200rpm faster than stock on the right manifold. The area under the curve is a thing of beauty.
That said, despite only just buying my fifth GT-R I'm still set on the NSX.
Good point.
Also, like the P1, it will take surplus torque from the engine and use it to spin the generator in back, thereby charging the batteries in that case as well. Apparently this scenario can happen quite a bit because the P1 only uses this method to charge its batteries (i.e it does not use braking regen) and nobody has complained about it losing electric charge that I have heard.
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I know of a few p1 owners who have complained about the car, mostly for its peaky torque delivery. Apparently it's not well set up and needs refining. It does not convert the turbo lag to NA delivery. I was disappointed by this. Rumours were that the P1 was rushed to the market. The interior finish of those I've sat in left a lot to be desired. Felt like a kit car next to the 918 which is as polished a product as the 911.
i was hoping the rear electric motor on the nsx would be for torque fill purposes, now I'm not so bothered.
Can't wait for the option of silent running when it suits and low road tax/london congestion charge. What I'm really hoping for is apple car play.
i was hoping the rear electric motor on the nsx would be for torque fill purposes, now I'm not so bothered.
Can't wait for the option of silent running when it suits and low road tax/london congestion charge. What I'm really hoping for is apple car play.
That's a good point. However I do wonder if part of the reason no one is complaining is because very few of the P1 owners are going to push the car to its limits on the racetrack. I know if I buy a NSX (or other supercar) I don't think I'd ever push at ten-tenths, lest I end up taking a tearful ride of shame back to the paddock in a flatbed with my wadded up supercar.
That's similar with what Macca did with the 12C as well. Anecdotally, I've heard the early models needed a lot of software patches, a lot of equipment upgrades (fixing incorrectly spec'd or busted parts), and quite a few electrical gremlins.
When I drove the 458 and Huracán, the 12C wasn't available because it just wouldn't run save for the 1st session of each day.
Not sure I follow you.
Are you not so bothered because you know it will handle torque fill or you know it wont and you don't care?
Nobody allows their batteries to get completely depleted because it ruins them. That is a correct statement. However, the "useful" battery power will get depleted, or the ICE will be running at elevated RPM trying to recharge the battery even for the moments you are not using it for propulsion. Like I said before, if they make the NSX 2.0 ICE run to charge the batteries, then that would get annoying with the loud exhaust. I like to hear my engine noise rise and fall with acceleration thank you!
Braking zones are short and hard whereas acceleration zones are longer. The piddly electric motors acting as small generators and the limited inverter capacity will not allow effective regeneration for this short period. Don't you think Porsche would have capitalized on this if they could have? No, the 918 goes flat after about 4 miles on the track.
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i liked the idea of theory but have heard second hand that it doesn't work so well.
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and yet it laps the ring in under 7 minutes despite its weight.
The 918 is an awesome race-bred car. A Nismo GTR with similar ICE power/weight does it just 10 seconds later for 1/9th the cost. I guess the extra 5 miles of electric boost and the other Porsche engineering gives it the 10 second advantage!
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I've driven two hybrid RLX's - one in the wet and one dry.
It's interesting - I tried looking on Acura's website for the electric motor specs and I couldn't find it. In fact, it doesn't even appear to be for sale anymore on Acura's website! Wonder if they pulled it already because lack of interest or technical problems
Anyways, the rear wheels only have 36 HP motors connected to each. Assuming peak HP from the ICE, that is only about 25% of the ICE power. So, they won't do much except for low vehicle speed, low engine speed acceleration "boost." It was under these conditions where I found the torque-vectoring to be extremely artificial. I preferred the handling when the batteries were flat.
The NSX electric motors on each front wheel will probably be about 50 HP each and I'm guessing the integrated DCT motor will be about 75HP.
I really wished the NSX 2.0 would have been all-electric. It could have been the first all-electric semi-exotic performance car. Honda would never do that though.
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It seems that there are many prospective owners of the NSX2.0 that are interested in the car because of the potential for mods on the car to have the ICE produce substantially more than stock power.
For those of you who are used to modding R35 GT-R's/997Turbo(S)'s/etc it would be worthwhile to keep in mind that Honda has a vested interest in keeping the car reliable as keeping it emissions compliant given that it's Honda/Acura's halo car.
Many high end automakers have gone to extreme steps to keep the ECU on their newer cars encrypted to keep tuners from modding their cars. Given the complexity of the hybrid drivetrain it might turn out that Honda will almost certainly lock out any modding of the ICE since doing so would throw off other components in the drivetrain and open a pandora's box of possible reliability/liability/safety issues.
For those of you who are used to modding R35 GT-R's/997Turbo(S)'s/etc it would be worthwhile to keep in mind that Honda has a vested interest in keeping the car reliable as keeping it emissions compliant given that it's Honda/Acura's halo car.
Many high end automakers have gone to extreme steps to keep the ECU on their newer cars encrypted to keep tuners from modding their cars. Given the complexity of the hybrid drivetrain it might turn out that Honda will almost certainly lock out any modding of the ICE since doing so would throw off other components in the drivetrain and open a pandora's box of possible reliability/liability/safety issues.
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