Another brake question (brake ducts)

How dare you impugn my testing methodology! ;) Actually, I slathered the bottom of the tire in water-based paint and then lowered the car on the contact paper. So that was a static measurement and not a dynamic one which would change area shape as well.
 
I'm sorry, half of that website: http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0996 is just crap.

They state that a narrower tire heats up more than a wider tire given the same stress -which is true, but then they claim that because of this the narrower tire will always be a harder compound which is why the wider tire will perform better.

Tire manufacturers do not change their compound for different widths of the same model tire they make. So a 225 width RA-1 (or any other tire) will have less grip than a 255. EDIT: "So a 225 width RA-1 (or any other tire) will have less grip than a 255 width RA-1"

A wider contact patch dosn't mean that the tire contact patch will be narrower length wise given the same weight car. Yes increasing the diameter of the tire will increase the length of the rectangle/oval shaped contact patch, but what will affect the contact patch more is width, not lenght.
- I viper has a 345mm width rear tire on a 19" wheel, if you put a 225 width tire on it on a 20" wheel, the contact patch is not going to be larger. -Come on guys, use common sense.

And I'm sorry, a wider tire DOES have a wider and larger contact patch. The wider the tire, yes their is less pressure distrubuted over every square mm of the contact patch but that means their is less work for every square mm to do work when going around a corner. Roughly: If your contact patch is 2X larger, then it will have to do 1/2 the work (1/2 the stress) at the same performance level.

The best way to find your ideal tire pressure on a track is by using a tire pyrometer to measure the temps across the tire, chalk may help you to find the extremes but is not a very good method.
 
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I'm sorry, half of that website: http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0996 is just crap.
I'm sorry, all of your post is just crap.

- I viper has a 345mm width rear tire on a 19" wheel, if you put a 225 width tire on it on a 20" wheel, the contact patch is not going to be larger. -Come on guys, use common sense.

And I'm sorry, a wider tire DOES have a wider and larger contact patch.
That's just WRONG. It's wrong in theory, and it's wrong in practical application (the measurements conducted by the Tire Rack).

If you think otherwise, answer this question. Let's say you have a Viper weighing 3400 pounds, and you inflate all the tires to 34 pounds per square inch. Tell me how you divide 3400 pounds by 34 pounds per square inch, and come up with two different numbers for the area of the contact patch, one for wider tires and one for narrower tires. Show your work. :D
 
I'm sorry, all of your post is just crap.

That's just WRONG. It's wrong in theory, and it's wrong in practical application (the measurements conducted by the Tire Rack).

If you think otherwise, answer this question. Let's say you have a Viper weighing 3400 pounds, and you inflate all the tires to 34 pounds per square inch. Tell me how you divide 3400 pounds by 34 pounds per square inch, and come up with two different numbers for the area of the contact patch, one for wider tires and one for narrower tires. Show your work. :D
"he shape of a tire's contact patch or "footprint" greatly influences its performance and is dependent on its profile or "aspect ratio". Low profile tires (most performance tires) have a short and wide contact patch that is effective in converting the driver's input into very responsive handling, cornering stability and traction...especially on dry roads.


High profile tires (light truck and most passenger tires) have a long and narrow contact patch which helps to provide predictable handling, a smooth ride and especially good traction in snow." - Tire Rack

Autospeed: "For example, say that the weight on the tyre was 900lb, and the tyre pressure was 10 psi. That internal pressure means that each square inch of area can support 10lb, so, in this case, the contact patch will be 90 square inches. If the tyre pressure was 30 psi, the contact area would be 30 square inches, and if the pressure was 90 psi, the contact area would be 10 square inches." -if this is true, then a 1psi, their will be 900 square inches of the contact patch. -I'm sorry but this formula does not work.

I had a '92 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo which weighed roughly 4,000lbs wet. Lets say 4,000 even and a 50/50 weight distribution for simplicity. If I run over a nail or eventually get a tire pressure of 10psi then according to this calculation, the 1,000 lbs per tire with 10psi would yield a contact patch of 100square inches. Even with a tire completely flat, the contact patch CANNOT reach 100square inches, because the tire is ROUND. -and sorry, that formula is too simple to calculate the contact patch because tire side walls and wheels DO affect the contact patch which means the formula to calculate a contact patch in comparisin to psi is much more complicated and has to take the sidewall flex and wheel into consideration.

Tire Rack is a pretty reputable company (ive never heard of autospeed before) and I have not seen this formula or explination on their website (Can someone prove me wrong?).

Autospeed has just thrown out theory and numbers, they have not tested this with tires, pressure gauges, pyrometers, or any tool other than equations that try to explain how a tire works.

This theory roughly outlines that the contact patch does change and get larger or smaller due to tire pressure changes, but to simply say that for 900lbs exherted on the tire at 10psi = 90square inches and at 30psi = 30square inches is too generalized, it is not that simple of a calculation because you do haveto take into consideration the sidewall and the wheel (which at those low tire pressures does support the carcass shape) to a big degree. Near the ideal tire pressure range, the psi-contact patch would be easier to calculate but their is not a simple formula to just divide the weight on the tire by the pressure in the tire.

To find the ideal tire pressure you want to use a pyrometer to get the heat buildup across the tire in a specific range, and if you have temps higher in the middle - you have too much pressure, and if the temps are hotter on the outsides of the tire, you have too little pressure.

And it is common sense, if you have the same diameter, compound, make and model tire, wider tires do yield more grip because the forces acting on them during cornering is distributed across more surface area (contact patch) which means that every square mm is working less to do the same thing. Which means you can go faster or exhert more force on the overall larger/wider contact patch to put the same stress on every square mm of the tire = more grip.
 
I believe the increased 'grip', or lateral load capacity of a wider tire has mostly to do with the vector of force being applied to the wheel at a lower angle. This allows higher loads before the tire starts to deform, creating higher lateral accelerations, G loads in turns. I believe with in the pressures one safely runs on the track, Ken's formula works. Weight and tire pressure dictate contact patch. Tire width dictates contact patch shape. The aspect ratio of the the 2 tires being compared need to be similar, as does the side wall construction, or the hysteresis of the rudder and cords come into play to a great extent. This will greatly effect the contact patch size and shape.
 
The funny thing about this concept is that, when people don't understand it, they always throw out hypothetical conditions that have NOTHING to do with the dynamics of a tire whose pressure is supporting the car's weight - "what if the tire is flat from a nail", etc. The fact of the matter is, as long as the tire is normally inflated so that the inflation is supporting the weight of the car and the bottom of the tire is deflected by the area of the contact patch, the size of the contact patch is equal to the force applied to it (the weight of that corner of the car) divided by the amount of pressure per unit of area (the pressure in the tire). This is basic physics.

Tire Rack is a pretty reputable company (ive never heard of autospeed before) and I have not seen this formula or explination on their website (Can someone prove me wrong?).
Can you prove that basic physics is wrong?

Autospeed has just thrown out theory and numbers, they have not tested this with tires, pressure gauges, pyrometers, or any tool other than equations that try to explain how a tire works.
That's probably not true. Autospeed is a reputable automotive publication overseas. Of course, you don't believe that; it's very clear from your posts that you already have your mind made up, and don't want to be confused with facts. :D

To find the ideal tire pressure you want to use a pyrometer to get the heat buildup across the tire in a specific range, and if you have temps higher in the middle - you have too much pressure, and if the temps are hotter on the outsides of the tire, you have too little pressure.
Aha! When the facts are not on your side, start talking about an entirely different issue, so that the discussion goes off on a tangent. Great strategy, as long as no one sees through it!

And it is common sense, if you have the same diameter, compound, make and model tire, wider tires do yield more grip because the forces acting on them during cornering is distributed across more surface area (contact patch) which means that every square mm is working less to do the same thing.
Absolutely NOT TRUE. Wider tires yield slightly more grip because the SHAPE of that area is different (wider side to side, narrower front to back). The SIZE of the area is exactly the same.

This is illustrated on the Tire Rack's website:

Tire Rack website said:
The shape of a tire's contact patch or "footprint" greatly influences its performance and is dependent on its profile or "aspect ratio". Low profile tires (most performance tires) have a short and wide contact patch that is effective in converting the driver's input into very responsive handling, cornering stability and traction...especially on dry roads.

35_series.gif
70_series.gif


High profile tires (light truck and most passenger tires) have a long and narrow contact patch which helps to provide predictable handling, a smooth ride and especially good traction in snow.
 
Let's say you have a Viper weighing 3400 pounds, and you inflate all the tires to 34 pounds per square inch. Tell me how you divide 3400 pounds by 34 pounds per square inch, and come up with two different numbers for the area of the contact patch, one for wider tires and one for narrower tires. Show your work. :D
-2 similar sized tires will have the same contact patch, but when you start to get into larger spreads (225 to a 295) then the contact patch will change (due to other factors that come into play for extreme cases like this).

The author for Autospeed also generalizes a lot.

F=µN,

"So, if you increase the weight on the tyre, then the frictional force will increase as well, in proportion to the increase in weight on the tyre - but the coefficient of friction will remain the same."

- that's not true. The friction coefficient varies with load, it's not constant at all

as for different width tires not mattering... a wider tire allows you to run a lower pressure, gaining more footprint area. If you have a 225 and a 255, both at 30psi
 
Aha! When the facts are not on your side, start talking about an entirely different issue, so that the discussion goes off on a tangent. Great strategy, as long as no one sees through it!
-If you like finding the correct tire pressure by using chalk, by all means go for it.

But what do I know anyway...
 
a wider tire allows you to run a lower pressure
Not necessarily. In general, there is usually a tire pressure that is best for a given car and tire and conditions. For example, you're likely to use the same tire pressure on street tires on the NSX; you might use a different tire pressure with R compound track tires on the track. But you'll probably use the same tire pressure with R compound track tires in 205/50-15 and 225/50-16 as you would with the exact same track tires in 235/40-17 and 275/35-17. I know I'm running the same pressures on my RA-1 in the narrower sizes that people are running with the same tires in the wider sizes.

If you have a 225 and a 255, both at 30psi
So they're at the same pressure. Then they have the same size contact patch.

But what do I know anyway...
Apparently, you know more about how to find the proper tire pressure, than you do about the size of the contact patches. But this discussion isn't about finding the proper tire pressures; you just threw that in as a "red herring".
 
Apparently, you know more about how to find the proper tire pressure, than you do about the size of the contact patches. But this discussion isn't about finding the proper tire pressures; you just threw that in as a "red herring".
It wasnt supposeto be a 'red herring', it was more focused towards: if your tires are your limiting factor throughout a session, then adding a BBK WILL NOT improve your braking distance.
 
Another tire width discussion? I'll keep it short.

After my own heated debate on this topic years ago with Ken I really did my research. The most simple way to state why wider is better for road racing, is like this. Lay a typical papermate 55x23x13 mm eraser on a dry table top. Is it harder to push it width wise or length wise across the surface? It is far more difficult along its length. Conclusion- contact patch shape counts, a lot. Even on a P2 prototype race car their foot-print under maximum load is about the size of a mens size 11 sneaker, so all these little details and dynamic interactions matter to a great extent.

Stuntman, it is rather inaccurate to assume that as the section width or tread width increases linearly that the contact patch area also increases linearly in this relationship. I feel that point is at the heart of your argument with Ken and to that end he is mostly correct in this instance. Conceivably, in fact it could decrease depending on the relative vertical stiffnesses. What will change is the shape of the contact patch, becoming shorter in the longitudinal direction as it is made wider (assuming a constant load), and this may be partly responsible for more uniform unit loading over the area of the contact patch.

Likewise, Ken, I also have come to disagree that the contact patch area remains constant as [Vertical Force] / [Constant Inflation Pressure] suggests or that tire rack's article is entirely comprehensive. I'd argue that under load, many more technical variables come into play that are highly significant to this debate, a minor point I would hope we could at least agree on.

As it turns out, the physics in actual use are far more complex because in the real-world as the car isn't sitting on a glass floor at tirerack, it is on a race track with many other variables at play. I do agree with you that contact patch area is primarily load/inflation pressure driven, however,
I have come to learn that the sidewall stiffness of the tire (variable) does carry a portion of the load and that portion can also vary with inflation pressure (variable).. so there is no one simple answer which is what I think many seem to want or expect in this space.

The consensus among many engineers seems to be that all tires have a load sensitivity curve (variable) and this curve is based on a combination of construction, aspect ratio, and sidewall curvature (either as molded and as mounted on a rim) and the curve is not linear- so again there is no simple division equation to express this relationship- it gets more complicated.

The best wording I have found online to best describe this affect in the real world, is that it is entirely possible to have tire "A" provide better "grip" up to a certain point of speed around a curve but tire "B" to be better at the upper ranges of cornering. Tire Engineers and race teams also have to decide if it is better to have a flatter response curve with a more predictable response or one with higher max grip but only over a very narrow cornering angle that can break away with little warning at the slip angle approaches it's max threshold. Hence, the science of modern F1 tire tech and per track, weather, and other compound/sizing optimizations.

Tire construction and the carcass design, thermal distribution also are significant as it relates to the contact patch shape with wider tires having definitive advantages to a point. This year I got to reap this benefit in use, by seeing better loading and heat distribution to the point whereas my wear dropped off.

All else equal, most any race tire techs will tell you that integrating more uniform unit load and associated grip coefficient function over the entire contact patch should make available more total lateral mechanical grip. The wider tire probably also has higher vertical and lateral spring rates, meaning less camber loss and lateral distortion in actual driving respectively.

I like to provide references. If you want the unfiltered revision to this debate... go here as even the top tire engineers duke it out you I'm sure you will find their credentials in order:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=102250&page=1

One of the members which explained it to me in great detail years back is a frequent poster to the forum, and has been a tire engineer for almost 40 years.

Other good general references can be found here:
http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_pressure4.shtml

All I can offer is that these aren't necessarily easy technical concepts to grasp, and good argument and debate never hurt anyone so take it easy. :)

Best Regards,

John
 
Of course, things change dynamically when the car is in motion - and all the more so when it is in motion around a racetrack, where the g forces (lateral as well as vertical) are greater than in sedate street driving. But the principle remains the same; the size of the contact patch remains the same when equal vertical force and pressure are exerted on it, even if the tread widths are different.

Incidentally, the load supported by the sidewalls is quite minor when the tires are inflated to normal pressures. That changes significantly when the pressures are reduced to less than normal (and even more so with run-flat tires) such as when the tires are underinflated, punctured, etc.
 
John,
You mentioned slip angle. Have you ever driven a car on bias ply slicks? Everyone should have the chance to do it at least once. Makes one appreciate the newer tire technology.

I don't know about the rest of you but I have enjoyed this thread.
 
John,
You mentioned slip angle. Have you ever driven a car on bias ply slicks? Everyone should have the chance to do it at least once. Makes one appreciate the newer tire technology.

I don't know about the rest of you but I have enjoyed this thread.

Alan, I have not. If you regularly run a race car with the PCA crowd I'd think you have far more experience in this area than I. I've heard that Formula Atlantic and GT1 have since moved to the radials, and occasionally I still see one of the historic guys show up in a Lotus 7 or the like sporting a set of the older goodyears. Someone I know has a C-Sport racer with a set of the older hoosiers on perhaps I could borrow for a session, because I'm fairly certain he hasn't changed them since they were new technology.. lol..

In general, my experience on competition racing slicks is very limited. As a club day kinda guy, most all of my experience thus far has been on various high performance street and R compound tires- not so much due to the added expense or wear issues, but more due to the the fact I had previously optimized car setup for street/track so I could at least make the long highway drive in without worry. In the past I have dread to make myself too nuts swapping things around all by myself before drivers meetings, prefering the approach to keep it simple most days so I can concentrate on the more important things. Most of my friends in the Porsche club do trailer (not the cheap ones either), and always seem surprised chatting at the end of the day to find out about my more modest hp and tires as I pack up, not to mention how much an NSX trunk can really hold.. !!

The trend is that more guys are showing up sporting some really aggressive rubber at our open club advanced lapping days. You know... when your standing by the registration tent at 7AM and parked in front of you is a new Z06 or SRT-10 with 500hp and heat treated Hoosiers and huge brakes and you're just like... uggh... (humble) this is supposed to be an Alfa track day and there are three vintage Alfa's in the whole parking and they all weigh half as much as you!!

I believe that this March will be my first opportunity for me to simply try out a set of soft GT radial slicks- and see how well it influences my fun factor and lap times out there.
 
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The trend is that more guys are showing up sporting some really aggressive rubber at our open club advanced lapping days. You know... when your standing by the registration tent at 7AM and parked in front of you is a new Z06 or SRT-10 with 500hp and heat treated Hoosiers and huge brakes and you're just like... uggh... (humble) this is supposed to be an Alfa track day and there are three vintage Alfa's in the whole parking and they all weigh half as much as you!!
Just remember that the biggest variable is the driver's skill. It's not uncommon to see experienced drivers in lower horsepower cars running faster laps than less experienced drivers in cars whose capabilities are clearly superior. (Of course, if those fast cars have fast drivers too, well, just let 'em go by... ;) )
 
Formula Star Mazda Pro still runs bias ply Goodyears!

They definately flex and squirm more than radials, and these tires tend to fall apart and chuck off golf ball-size pieces of rubber. -Fun!

These cars slide a lot at low-midcorner speeds and are relatively planted at mid-high speeds due to the large wings on them, -makes for an awsome combination and great racing IMO.

RoadAtlanta2005EricMcCombs.jpg

-Road Atlanta 2005
 
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