Another Acura/Honda Supercar Concept at Tokyo Auto Show?

[Silver F16]

Keep in mind that the HSC chassis was heavily based on the NSX. So the development costs you mentioned is lessened. In the 2003 Tokyo Motor show, the way HSC was marketed came across like something more attainable than the NSX price of $90k.

In 2004, production of NSX left Tochigi and went into a mainstream plant. Production methods were changed to control cost along with minimal hand assembly.

HSC, if market during that time could have been priced at $60K. For that Honda would have move more volume than the NSX. Would it be a money maker? Who knows. Apparently Soichiro didn’t care but bean counter Fukui does.

 

[TC]

I did factor in those things - hence I offered that the upfront costs at $300m. Toyota spent $3 billion to bring the new Tundra pickup to the market. In all likelyhood, the cost to bring a new NSX/HSC to the market will be greater than $300m.

Look at this this way, the current RL is $50k and up, and that is based on Honda's super-high volume Accord platform. An NSX/HSC would sell at about 1% of the Accord volume, yet have more power, beefier everything, finer materials, etc, etc. and only sell for $10k more than the RL?

The R8 is priced at $110k (or whatever) because that's what it costs to make it even mildly profitable. Now, if Audi doesn't sell the projected 3,500 units per year, it will lose money, as did Honda on the NSX. If memory serves, the original NSX business case/plan was for 5,000 units per year.

IMO, this is the #1 quandry for Honda - making the math work, or even partially work. From their experience with the NSX and RL (the current RL is selling at about 5000 units per year against a published goal of 20,000) Honda realizes that they don't have the market reach to sell cars much above $40-45k. So, how to make high-performance car that is priced within Honda's range to sell it (or just above at $60k) without losing another $800m, as they did with the NSX. That's why we don't have another NSX - there is no business case. And without making it work financially, we will have another NSX on our hands - a car that comes out of the gate strong and then gets $0 investment for the next 10 years because it is a money losing proposition.

 

[Silver F16]

Your rational makes sense. Thanks for elaborating. Based on that, we can now understand why Fukui chose to go FR layout for platform sharing with the future RL flagship. It is understandable but doesn’t make it right to build an NSX replacement out of a luxury sedan platform.

Adding to your point is that Honda simply needs to move more volume with the NSX platform. Make deriviatives such as V6 and V8 version of the HSC, Coupe and convertible versions, Then bring Type S and Type R towards the end of the model cycle to milk more volume. Maybe even market a 4 door version much like the Acura DN-X or Honda Dual note concept. All this will at least double the volume and drop the price.

Soichiro is a dreamer hence he built the NSX and “cost be damned” he said. Yoshino (Fukui’s predescessor) followed Soichiro’s dreams and showed concepts like the Honda Dual Note and was readying the HSC for production.

 

[TC]

Adding to your point is that Honda simply needs to move more volume with the NSX platform. Make deriviatives such as V6 and V8 version of the HSC, Coupe and convertible versions, Then bring Type S and Type R towards the end of the model cycle to milk more volume. Maybe even market a 4 door version much like the Acura DN-X or Honda Dual note concept. All this will at least double the volume and drop the price.

i agree with that totally. I'd also add an automatic and manu-matic transmission to the mix. The previous NSX automatic was really bad - 4 speed and only 252 HP. If you look at the sales of the 911 and Vette, automatics accounts for a large percentage (30-40%) of total sales. Similarly, Vette, 911 and F430 ragtops are about 40-50% of total sales. So i think Honda missed out on 2/3rds of the original NSX market because they didn't have a credible automatic or a drop-top.

 

[effer]

So i think Honda missed out on 2/3rds of the original NSX market because they didn't have a credible automatic or a drop-top.

BTW I also just can't believe Honda can't offer an automatic ( or paddle shift ) S2000 ???

Also, I absolutely not buy the idea Honda lost a lot of money with the NSX.


800M$ ???

So we are crying for a ridiculous 53,3 M$ per year on a 15 years production life basis?

Honda is actually losing a lot more money with Formula 1!!!


As I always repeat, every sportscar enthousiast of this world are waiting for a new NSX, except some carmakers and maybe a blind Honda CEO !!!

 

[Swift]

I did factor in those things - hence I offered that the upfront costs at $300m. Toyota spent $3 billion to bring the new Tundra pickup to the market. In all likelyhood, the cost to bring a new NSX/HSC to the market will be greater than $300m.

Look at this this way, the current RL is $50k and up, and that is based on Honda's super-high volume Accord platform. An NSX/HSC would sell at about 1% of the Accord volume, yet have more power, beefier everything, finer materials, etc, etc. and only sell for $10k more than the RL?

The R8 is priced at $110k (or whatever) because that's what it costs to make it even mildly profitable. Now, if Audi doesn't sell the projected 3,500 units per year, it will lose money, as did Honda on the NSX. If memory serves, the original NSX business case/plan was for 5,000 units per year.

IMO, this is the #1 quandry for Honda - making the math work, or even partially work. From their experience with the NSX and RL (the current RL is selling at about 5000 units per year against a published goal of 20,000) Honda realizes that they don't have the market reach to sell cars much above $40-45k. So, how to make high-performance car that is priced within Honda's range to sell it (or just above at $60k) without losing another $800m, as they did with the NSX. That's why we don't have another NSX - there is no business case. And without making it work financially, we will have another NSX on our hands - a car that comes out of the gate strong and then gets $0 investment for the next 10 years because it is a money losing proposition.

There is one way to create such a car and sell for a decent price .........


Make it "motha f-ing badass"............make it so GT-R guys, vette owners, and viper owners will trade there cars in for one. If it has the WOW factor and the marketing to back it up..its possible. But few today dream big.

 

[satx]

30k corvettes are sold every year in the USA at ~50k
30k 911s are sold every year (worldwide) at ~85k


neither of these models platform share. Honda should be producing a 60k mid-engined corvette beater. That means a V8 and over 400HP. The market is out there.

 

[Lonestranger]

Actually I bet Honda could make a hxll of a deal on V10 engines with either Ford or Chrysler, as both are choking on them! They are not fast, but they do know how to eat!! Heck, I'll bet Exxon would give them all they need!!:biggrin: They could even match these "supercar" motors with CVTT transmissions.

There is a disconnect here with Honda.

1. Honda is choosing to go with V10 at a time when CAFE standards are expected to rise sharply. Reason for V10: Fukui wants to show the world he has big balls. Hey even Chrysler knows how to make V10. Stick with something Honda is good at, squeeze more power from a small engine.

2. Skip the V8 for a v10? Get your engineers to work on something else like a modern automatic transmission. I heard Honda just started work on a 6 speed automatic. Too late Honda!! GM / Ford has a 6 speed auto, BMW is coming out with 7 speed SMG, Mercedes is on 7 speed auto, Lexus has an 8 speed auto.

Bring the HSC to production.

 

[Silver F16]

30k corvettes are sold every year in the USA at ~50k
30k 911s are sold every year (worldwide) at ~85k


neither of these models platform share. Honda should be producing a 60k mid-engined corvette beater. That means a V8 and over 400HP. The market is out there.

At NSX volumes of 5000 - 200 units a year, if you don't platform share, the price of NSX will continue to be at these high prices.

911 can get away without platform sharing because they sell it for $85K, hence amortizing its development cost on each high priced vehicle. Corvette does do a good job containing cost for the performance but you do get what you pay for. And the Corvette platform is now shared with the XLR.

For Honda to do what Porsche has done, they needed to continue investing in the NSX with updates. That way, the volume would have build up from the initial 4-5K. When you get a new player in the premium market, legacy is very important in the buyers eyes. Because honda lacks legacy with mid-engine production sports car, it takes time to get a good volume of buyers. If Honda had a FMC every 5-6 years, the NSX legacy and heritage would have built up and in 2008, 16 years from the first NSX, Honda would be on their 3rd generation with substantial more customers. Granted, the first generation car would not be a money maker, but that cost is an investment in establishing a foot hold in this preminum market that will eventually pay you back by the 2nd or 3rd generation.

Detroit 2007, we have a complete change in direction with NSX successor. Honda gets to start all over again on establishing a market instead of building on what was already there. Honda pissed off NSX owners ready for an upgrade. Good luck finding new consumers with the FR sports car when you get competitors likes M6, GT-R, LF-A, Aston, Jag, SL, and Corvette.

 

[effer]

For Honda to do what Porsche has done, they needed to continue investing in the NSX with updates. That way, the volume would have build up from the initial 4-5K. When you get a new player in the premium market, legacy is very important in the buyers eyes.

SO TRUE!!!

Honda did several bad moves. Some examples:

Refusing to build the Mc Laren F1 V12

Not continuing in Le Mans 24 hours Race and to win the GT1 category ...

Stay within the 90% power output of entry level Ferrari midengine sportscar as it was initially ...

Today the NSX should be at least a 2800 lbs marvel redlining at 10K rpm with a 4L engine @ 480 hp.

Granted, the first generation car would not be a money maker, but that cost is an investment in establishing a foot hold in this preminum market that will eventually pay you back by the 2nd or 3rd generation.

or pay you back now with cheaper models like Civic, Accord, etc.

 

[pegi]

I read topic yesterday, Honda is cancelled that new supercar concept.
They don't get enough intrest of that concept.
New modell will introduce 2010 was end of this story.

That new introduce sound right to me .
Like S2000 was 1999/2000 Honda's 50 year present for them self and people.
So maybe new "nsx" in 2009/2010 year will be 60 year present to them self & people?

I know there is lot of rumour about the new nsx, but sound good to me.
Only time will tell & show us what is coming

Hope so you got my point of my bad englis :biggrin:

 

[Silver F16]

According to the first post, we were to see an NSX successor in Tokyo. Based on the latest Honda news update, it looks like this may not happen.

 

[Liquid]

According to the first post, we were to see an NSX successor in Tokyo. Based on the latest Honda news update, it looks like this may not happen.

Well I, for one, am SHOCKED!!

 

[6spdterror]

According to the first post, we were to see an NSX successor in Tokyo. Based on the latest Honda news update, it looks like this may not happen.

Looks like ur right. I just got the email and it seems that the main concept is the CRX replacement. There is no talk about the NSX sucessor. Maybe they want to surprise us??

 

[Hothonda]

Here's the Tokyo show line up from Honda:

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=714222

 

[smhrednsx91]

If you squash this

You'll get this

And if you stuff a V-14 (hey think big) you get this

The next NSX!!

 

[Black 94 #400]

Dear Honda if your reading are post here’s my wish list,:smile: hopefully some of people here would agree with me on some of them.

HSC body, V-8, V-10 options, double bubble for aero dynamics, electric brake lighter and faster stopping, night vision, paddle shifter optional, and make it light :wink:

 

[whiteNSXs]

If you squash this

You'll get this

And if you stuff a V-14 (hey think big) you get this

The next NSX!!

That is so true!
Steve

 

[ajnsx]

I agree 100%. God I wish they would produce the HSC. What the hell keeps them from doing it? It's SOO Beautiful.

A lot of people boo-hooed on that design too. It was good to see a terrible design put the hsc in perspective. Especially with the bodykit that was shown elsewhere.:smile:

edit: the cr z looks like a hump back whale in profile.

 

[NSXGMS]

SO TRUE!!!

Honda did several bad moves. Some examples:

Refusing to build the Mc Laren F1 V12

Not continuing in Le Mans 24 hours Race and to win the GT1 category ...

Stay within the 90% power output of entry level Ferrari midengine sportscar as it was initially ...

Today the NSX should be at least a 2800 lbs marvel redlining at 10K rpm with a 4L engine @ 480 hp.

I would be surprised if Soichiro himself turned down the McLaren project. That kind of project was right up his alley.

As far as the 90% power of Ferrari most will concede that the NSX had the same or greater power than the F348 as Ferrari typically massively overstated their hp figures. Honda knew this. The NSX outperformed the F348 in virtually every performance category at the time. From what I've read the current F lineup is the only group of cars to reflect somewhat accurately their true hp figures.

I'm sorry to say the Honda dropped the ball with the NSX so badly it probably can't recover. I thought the HSC might have had a chance but when that didn't come out in 2003 it was over.

Honda's failure to update and market the NSX from 1994-2005 was the nail in the coffin. Porsche has it down to a science and the Vette sells itself with performance value. Have you seen the profit per car that Porsche makes? Astounding. They can surely afford to have that unique platorm.

The NSX successor is hugely possible but for some reason Honda does not want to go balls to the wall with a new exotic performance car. They want to go in between, around and upside down with GT cars like the ASCC.

I think it's important to realize that Ferrari will never be caught outright and the longer Honda waits the worse it gets. The goal should be just to get some market share.

The F4xx that comes out next should have blistering performance and will distance itself even further making it that much harder for a newcomer (which the NSX sucessor will be now) to compete for market share. Ferrari's recent F1 success adds to that power. Remember, when the NSX debuted Honda was the F1 superpower and Ferrari was in the toilet. Now it's the opposite coming off of Honda's worst F1 year ever.

I hope 2800 lbs and 480hp is enough...

 

[Swift]

you never know...maybe honda will come out with "gundanium alloy" that is ten times stronger than titanium and lighter than CF???

and still have a v6!!! :wink: :biggrin:

 

[NSXGMS]

you never know...maybe honda will come out with "gundanium alloy" that is ten times stronger than titanium and lighter than CF???

and still have a v6!!! :wink: :biggrin:

Come on, everyone knows they're developing the "unobtanium" material used in the NSX keys! :wink: :tongue:

 

[Swift]

hasnt the show started already?? just curious..

anyways at this point acura realllllly needs something outside the box and affordable. like the NSX when it debuted

 

[dswartz]

Honda's failure to update and market the NSX from 1994-2005 was the nail in the coffin. Porsche has it down to a science and the Vette sells itself with performance value. Have you seen the profit per car that Porsche makes? Astounding. They can surely afford to have that unique platorm.

Honda should follow the strategy laid out in the following motortrend article:

http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0711_2012_chevrolet_corvette/porsche_911.html

Nissan re-introduced the GTR and kept it a 4 wheel drive turbo six cylinder supercar with the most advanced electronics on the planet. In other words, its conceptually the same as ever! Now, however, its absence has allowed it to become "the most anticipated supercar in recent history".

As the GTR's arch rival, this seems to be a fantastic opportunity to re-introduce an evolutionary NSX, not a revolutionary who knows what!

 

[NSXGMS]

Honda should follow the strategy laid out in the following motortrend article:

http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0711_2012_chevrolet_corvette/porsche_911.html

Nissan re-introduced the GTR and kept it a 4 wheel drive turbo six cylinder supercar with the most advanced electronics on the planet. In other words, its conceptually the same as ever! Now, however, its absence has allowed it to become "the most anticipated supercar in recent history".

As the GTR's arch rival, this seems to be a fantastic opportunity to re-introduce an evolutionary NSX, not a revolutionary who knows what!

That's an interesting angle. It's conceivable that they could do that but clearly Honda is not going in that direction. The true NSX successor needs a mid-engine, around 500hp and 2900 lbs., lots of CF, Ti and Al, F1 tranny and 10K redline and they're just not going to get there with a V-10. They deperately need a V-8 for this project. How great would a 4.2L V-8 with 480+ hp be right about now?

The price would be astronomical (~$150K) and I think there's been so much bad press about the NSX lately that people have forgotten how amazing it was in 1991. I just don't think they have it in them. And at that point I'd encourage them to make it a limited run like the Ford GT if they don't plan on marketing/updating it properly like the NSX.

Also, we'll see how this GT-R sells. I'm really not sure. All the young boyracers from the 90s might just be able to afford it now that they're in their 30s but I really think most of the interest and "anticipation" is coming from kids who can't afford it.

And with most reports putting the car at no less than 3600 lbs. it might not perform as well as the competition.

It's still tougher for Nissan to sell a 70K car than Honda/Acura. And the IS-F is going to cut big time into that segment shortly. Lexus has the brand and the performance down with this one. They'll be up against that, the RS4 (not to mention the R8) and the M3. And even in the lower price bracket they're going to be up against the extremely affordable WRX and EVO X.