Aerochargers TT more testing
- Thread starter DDozier
- Start date
There are several OEM's that are using varible vane turbos. Garret and Chrysler used them throughout the 80's on the Shelby 2.2l turbos with mechanical vane controller.
Porsche uses the same control method that I am trying to use. You can find info here and if you watch the video on this same page you will be able to see how the vane contol effects the turbo, the Porshe design and the Aerochargers are very similar in how the vane portion of the turbo works.
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/te...earchedString=&SelectedVariant=PMT911TurboAll
Dave
Just got my car back from Autowave after pulling two head bolts. They tuned my BE 53 series turbos. I have the original system that Corky Bell designed. As with anything in life, a compromise. I have only driven it home but some first impressions;
Need to log some miles and see what this system does but I'll tell you one thing, it is real freakin' quick. Turbo lag? What's that?
- Wasn't real impressed with the RWHP gains at 340. I thought there would be more but the IAT's got up there and the ATA intercoolers couldn't keep up. Tried heavier springs and all we got was heat and pressure and no more wind so we went back to the green springs. So boost is around 6#.
- Went with a Series 2 EMS and what a nice system that is.
- These turbos spool like NOW! When you push the loud pedal you had better have the car pointing in the right direction. Broke loose the rear end when I hit 4500rpms in third gear in a straight line. The torque numbers are silly.
Need to log some miles and see what this system does but I'll tell you one thing, it is real freakin' quick. Turbo lag? What's that?
What settings are you guys using on the vane controllers?
You will need stickier tires!
Dave
I followed your lead and only turned them in one full turn. It's absolutly silly how fast they go into boost. Zero lag.
Yes, I will need new sneakers for the car very soon.
Yes, I will need new sneakers for the car very soon.
Congrats you finally have a running car again. Don't look at the hp, look at how fast it beats les haha
Any videos lol I wanna see how it sounds lol, very sick
We did a run yesterday up in the mountains east of LA. On the way back we were cruising down the 210 freeway and Jason slowly rolls past me at about 80. It was wicked loud. I mean attention grabbing, begging for a ticket loud. And he was just cruising at about 3k rpms. Then he drops two gears and hammered it. Thought my head was going to explode. Stupid loud.
Dave,
How many miles do you have on the Aerochargers now?
I have to admit, I'm still a little concerned with their long-term reliability given the cost. Most of their new design applications are on snowmobiles, and besides the Aerocharger shop cars (which I haven't heard about lately), just a few Porsche owners have used them (again, without any long-term updates from my searches).
Also, I've heard from internet searches that they have a potato bag crackling sound. It wasn't clear what caused that. Did you alleviate that issue with the BOV or is it vane flutter (or really nonexistent)?
I certainly don't want to perpetuate internet rumors if they aren't true. However, it's well documented they had problems in the past, now have the orignal owners back, have made some upgrades, and sound OK now. It's just that I don't have $5k to waste if these go bad after a few years or 20k miles.
Thanks for taking the time to write about these and your setup. I hope it takes off and makes a lot of NSX owners happy - you certainly are the best choice to reintroduce this technology with your knowledge and wisdom. If they're reliable long-term and your power gains are reasonable, this is clearly the best overall FI setup available.
Thanks,
Dave
How many miles do you have on the Aerochargers now?
I have to admit, I'm still a little concerned with their long-term reliability given the cost. Most of their new design applications are on snowmobiles, and besides the Aerocharger shop cars (which I haven't heard about lately), just a few Porsche owners have used them (again, without any long-term updates from my searches).
Also, I've heard from internet searches that they have a potato bag crackling sound. It wasn't clear what caused that. Did you alleviate that issue with the BOV or is it vane flutter (or really nonexistent)?
I certainly don't want to perpetuate internet rumors if they aren't true. However, it's well documented they had problems in the past, now have the orignal owners back, have made some upgrades, and sound OK now. It's just that I don't have $5k to waste if these go bad after a few years or 20k miles.
Thanks for taking the time to write about these and your setup. I hope it takes off and makes a lot of NSX owners happy - you certainly are the best choice to reintroduce this technology with your knowledge and wisdom. If they're reliable long-term and your power gains are reasonable, this is clearly the best overall FI setup available.
Thanks,
Dave
Miles are getting close to 3000 in 18 months and about 480 track miles so far. So not a lot of miles to give much of a reliability report. The 66 series is not exactly a complete rethink of the design more of an evolution and a much larger frame to be able to move more CFM. The issue with these and the old 53 series is the vane's themselves. The vane on the 66 series is a whole new design and shape and as a result Aerocharger claims they are more reliable and less likely to fail. The old units had issues with vane sticking and not moving freely but the biggest issue was due to there size and CFM limitation. The old units would be fine as long as they were used within the safe operating speed of the turbine, and that was about 6-7PSI and would net about 350-360whp on a 3.0l NSX motor. Like most car guys getting a taste for the CFCP they would make the assumption that if 6PSI was good then 8 or 9PSI has to be better and the little turbos death sentence was signed in short time. I know of a few sets that have failed do to this need for more power. If the smaller frame 53's were all that they made I would have passed on them for my build. Since the larger frame 66's are available and they have no issues hitting the CFM requirements for 600+hp I decided to take a chance.
I was lucky and had a chance to see the original BEGI system from a local owner and it was nice having something to compare and someone to bounce ideas off of. The local member is here on Prime but not very much anymore, if you do any searches on Prime and read some of his post you will realize what a resource he was to pull from and his input was very welcome when I was planning this project. He goes by SJS here on Prime.
As far as how they sound, I can hear them spool but I have to really listen for them as it is hard to hear them. CL65Captain and KO-NSX have both had rides in the car, and most of the local guys have heard it as we do our local drives. To me it sounds like an OEM turbo and the BOV is as quiet as can be being vented to atmosphere, I will eventually run the BOV as a recirculating unit and plumb it back to the air filter. I do not like to hear any BOV but this thing is really very quite and has not been bad enough for me to want to rework the plumbing. Maybe the BOV is the key to keeping them quiet but I do not hear much sound from the turbos.
I was reluctant to choose the Aerochargers mainly based on price. These things are expensive and if they made a 66 series that was large enough to support my power goals as a single I would have gone that route just to control costs. Even with the largest 66 frame a single is not going to move enough air to get the job done on a NSX, but is almost perfect for a S2000, something to think about when I retire the NSX from the track after this season.
To be honest I believe the intercooler is one of the main reasons for the efficiency of the system, the Aerochargers are the key to the smooth and quick boost curve. I would not be surprised if the system made even more power with after market headers in place of the OEM headers. All in all it has been a great project and fun as a proof of concept for my ideas. It gave me a chance to work on my fabrication and problem solving skills. I have a few other ideas to try out in the future but for now and the last 18 months this thing has been nothing less than bullet proof. Lets hope it stays that way.
She goes back on the rack this weekend for a general look see and then back on the street tune and 8PSI settings. I do miss the 40whp while playing on the street.
Dave
This post explains the control method, but any boost controller can be added for an on the fly control of boost.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1541473&postcount=10
Dave
I have the original system with the 53 series (small frame) turbos. I've got maybe a 1,000 miles on the system so far and it is my DD. While my RWHP figures do not and will not match Dave's 66 series turbos, I might be able to shed some light on your questions.
I do have a BOV that is plumbed back into the intake system. I do hear it as a muffled whooosh but it is not offensive or loud. I do hear the turbos spool up and they do so at a real low rpm, just depends how far down your right foot is at the time. My controller settings are the same as Dave's with one turn in. I can be at full boost (6.5 pounds) at 2,500 rpm. I think that the old owners of these tried to push too much boost and grenaded the poor little turbos. I tried to get more boost but just ended up with more heat so I went back to the stock controller springs. Safer and extends the life of these little babies.
The pull is very linear, just like the stock NA motor. But what is exciting is the torque. I'm at 300+ and it's there at 3,000 rpm and stays there. The car is so easy to drive without any unexpected surges mid corner. With this system, I am quicker and stronger than a CT supercharger and way quicker than a lot of the single turbo cars. They will no doubt get me at the top end and very high speed track events but for a street/canyon car, good luck hanging with me. Oh, did I mention zero turbo lag?
As to longevity, I haven't racked up that many miles yet but plan to. Oh, your potato chip crackle sound question....I've not heard anything like that. Car sounds normal and in boost, sound like an orchestra is behind me. I love this system.
Did you put it together or was it a kit?
Turbo2go - I purchased the system from a former Primer in Florida. Installed it myself with some minor fabrication to the charge y-pipe and test pipes. I'm also using the AEM EMS Series 2 for engine control.
I did send the turbos back to Aerodyne for a refresh and found one of them was pretty badly beaten so it had to be serviced but they did a nice job. Packed them up real nice and sent them back with bottles of new oil as they ship the turbos "dry". As a current customer of theirs, they will send you a bottle of oil for each turbo for free by just asking.
I did send the turbos back to Aerodyne for a refresh and found one of them was pretty badly beaten so it had to be serviced but they did a nice job. Packed them up real nice and sent them back with bottles of new oil as they ship the turbos "dry". As a current customer of theirs, they will send you a bottle of oil for each turbo for free by just asking.
I should have driven your car yesterday! That would have been exciting too
Turbo2Go - the oil will eventually evaporate or get used up as it "mists" the bearing while the turbos are spinning. There is no hard and fast schedule for changing the oil. It's more like topping off. There are two bleed screws on the turbos housing. All you do is unscrew both of them. You add the oil to the top one until it starts to trickle out the bottom bleed screw. That's it. I'll check them this fall but I'm guessing it won't need to be done but once a year.
RYU - anytime!
RYU - anytime!
In the two years I have had the Turbos I have added less than 2 oz. of oil to each turbo, the larger frame 66 series hold 4 oz. of their special oil. Aerocharger estimates on a daily driven car 10-12K miles between fills. The small frame turbos like Vahalla has only hold a little over 2 oz so they may need to be topped off more often. They can be filled on the car and do not require the turbos to be removed to add oil. There is no gauge or test to determine oil levels you just add oil at the fill hole untill the resevoir is full and oils start to come back out. With the car racked this is a 5-10 min deal, on the ground I am guessing it would take 15 min. You cannot overfill them so you can top them off as many times as you want if you get worried about the amount of oil being used.
Dave
I love your setup !!! This is the cleanest turbo system I have ever seen. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Finally had some time to sort through the track pics so I decided to add a couple of pics from Autobahn.
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/NSX_Track_Auto1.jpg" />
The Chase: Me making an attempt to run down the Z06-CE we prepped at the shop.
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/The_Chase_1.jpg" />
Dave
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/NSX_Track_Auto1.jpg" />
The Chase: Me making an attempt to run down the Z06-CE we prepped at the shop.
<img src="http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/medium/The_Chase_1.jpg" />
Dave
Great pics Dave. Looks fun!
Fun and frustrating, my silver '91 was much more of a track weapon. With all the suspension mods and the CTSC she was much flatter in the turns and more predictable at the limits, but the TT '04 is much faster on the straights and comming out of the corners. I am just not use to the car moving around and rolling as much as it does.
I got rid of the '91 because it was no fun on the street, way to hard of a setup for street use, and I really had no plans to track a NSX anymore.
We need to get you away from the dragstrip and try turning a little. The adrenaline rush last much longer. I think you would have a great time.
Dave
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