Acura needs to wake up

[chrisn]

I think the long-term reliability and total cost of ownership of the new NSX is mostly "TBD." If Acura wanted to *really* make a statement on durability/reliability/TCO, they'd include scheduled maintenance for four years and offer an extended warranty for the NSX at a price that says "Acura is pricing the extended warranty to reflect our confidence in our superior quality and reliability." But they didn't do either of those things. So we're all left hoping that the NSX will have "Honda-style durability."

Also, with respect to the quality surveys that rank on total number of incidents, I don't put a lot of weight in them. I think there should be two metrics: (i) initial quality based on total number of incidents in year one and then (ii) total cost of repairs per 10K miles driven (assuming no warranty at all), expressed both as raw dollars and as a percentage of MSRP.

 

[N Spec]

I thought you were talking about reliability rather than cost.
An electric motor is a pretty simple machine, much less complicated than an ICE or a transfer case/driveshaft/front differential.
No idea about replacement cost of a motor but would think the electronic controls would be the complicated/expensive part.
The NSX electric drive has an 8 year warranty.

Well reliability and cost go hand in hand. I'm not stepping into the whole aforementioned argument as there's a lot of ego flexing and bandwagon-toting going on, but BMW and Porsche reliability is great until warranties expire. All of my friends that love and drive them never keep their cars into the high mileage range when issues start to arise. They just replace them with newer ones. So the Germans know what they are doing to keep sales strong. Which makes companies like Honda even more peculiar in the sales game seeing as they have this seemingly "reliable" aura, so some owners are more than likely to keep the cars much longer and thus less sales over time.

The 8 year warranty is decent but early hybrid powertrain warranties were much better than that. My concern is the amount of ECU/computers on board that regulate the NSX. I'd hate to see one go out because of a simple component failure after warranty. Maybe there will be guys like Briank to step in and provide competitive fixes for that scenario.

I appreciate the early adopters of the NSX taking the plunge. I look forward to hearing about any issues, minor or major, if any.

 

[liftcontrol]

Well reliability and cost go hand in hand. I'm not stepping into the whole aforementioned argument as there's a lot of ego flexing and bandwagon-toting going on, but BMW and Porsche reliability is great until warranties expire. All of my friends that love and drive them never keep their cars into the high mileage range when issues start to arise. They just replace them with newer ones. So the Germans know what they are doing to keep sales strong. Which makes companies like Honda even more peculiar in the sales game seeing as they have this seemingly "reliable" aura, so some owners are more than likely to keep the cars much longer and thus less sales over time.

The 8 year warranty is decent but early hybrid powertrain warranties were much better than that. My concern is the amount of ECU/computers on board that regulate the NSX. I'd hate to see one go out because of a simple component failure after warranty. Maybe there will be guys like Briank to step in and provide competitive fixes for that scenario.

I appreciate the early adopters of the NSX taking the plunge. I look forward to hearing about any issues, minor or major, if any.

Concur with most of what you are saying except that quality and cost really do not go hand in hand.
A Ferrari 488 is likely much less reliable than a 911 GT3 or the current NSX for instance.
Mercedes and BMW are far less reliable than Toyota for that matter.

 

[N Spec]

Concur with most of what you are saying except that quality and cost really do not go hand in hand.
A Ferrari 488 is likely much less reliable than a 911 GT3 or the current NSX for instance.
Mercedes and BMW are far less reliable than Toyota for that matter.

I meant cost as in long term cost as the more reliable a car is, the less money you should have to spend over time compared to unreliable ones or vehicles in constant need of servicing. Not higher price=more reliable car to clarify my statement.

 

[fastaussie]

let's be honest, 95% of Supercar owners don't drive them every day (and yes, i know some of you will chime in and say you do! that's fabulous for you, but you're still not the norm).

we all know Ferrari's, Porsches, Lamborghini's, etc., used to be insane for maintenance and servicing. $10,000+ annually for some models. didn't stop those companies from selling the shit out of them did it? but now those brands are every bit as reliable as anything else. and i can't say i have ever heard anyone outside of this forum list those two concerns, reliability and running costs, as serious considerations when cross shopping for a Supercar. this segment is not about Camry's and Accords.

generally speaking, people who buy Supercars, obviously, have a good bit more disposable income than the average bloke (or lady). which makes operating costs less imperative, because they have a lot of extra money. i imagine they would also have multiple vehicles. i can't see very many people chucking down $200,000 on a two-seater vehicle with a very small trunk and no interior storage space, and having nothing else.

i reckon there's two primary reasons for (regular people, not Primers!) purchasing a Supercar. appearance, and performance...

 

[MasterNSXTech]

Yes a supercar is most likely not your only car, so you probably wouldn't daily drive one. That said, I know of plenty of people who drive a supercar daily anyways. Some of them rotate through a small fleet of them, but they prefer to commute to their CEO job or whatever in the Ferrari today, the Lamborghini tomorrow, maybe the McLaren the next day, instead of tuning out in (or in back of) a S-Class.

So even if they're limited use...you still want them to work and not strand you waiting for a flatbed and an Uber ride when you do use them. I don't remember who, but there are posters on this forum, maybe even this thread who have said McLaren is a POS and will never buy one again.

There are the super duper fanboys out there that think Ferrari is the greatest ever and will buy whatever they come out with. And they either are in denial about how many breakdowns they've had over the years or just have accepted it and it goes with owning a Ferrari and live with it. But for most people who casually buy the car and hope its going to give them years of trouble free operation? You burn them once or twice with some major failures, they're done. And they will probabmy not buy another from that brand again.

 

[nsx#fan]

You burn them once or twice with some major failures, they're done. And they will probably buy another from that brand again.

And they will probably NOT buy another from that brand again.

In my case, I would never buy another McLaren.

 

[MasterNSXTech]

And they will probably NOT buy another from that brand again.

In my case, I would never buy another McLaren.

Thanks. Fixed it. That's what I get for using a phone to type all that.

what burned with with the McLaren if you don't mind sharing?

 

[tucsonsx]

"Oh the older ones were terrible, but the new ones are much more reliable" is something I constantly hear from owners of newer high dollar European cars. Fact is, once they get the miles and time on them, the stereotype holds true. I know guys who have shops and they only specialize in Porsche or only specialize in Italian or something like that. Just about every car in their shops are massive money pits. There's a very good reason that expensive Mercedes or whatevers have decent resale value up to a certain amount of time and then the value falls off a cliff. Once any chance of warranty coverage is gone.

Honda has no problem calling the NSX an "everyday" supercar. I would seriously question the sanity of any salesperson at a Lamborghini store who would try to sell a new Huracan as a daily driver.

Honda has had an amazing track record of reliability when it comes to electrified powertrain. They've been doing it for a very long time now. The Prius may have really brought hybrids into the mainstream, but it was Honda's Insight that was really the first. It may be urban legend in American Honda, but it's been spouted by many sources there that they never ever had to replace a battery pack under warranty in any hybrid.



Unfortunately, "trained and competitive" technicians are a dying breed. So it's a good thing our stuff is pretty reliable since getting competent people to fix it is getting harder and harder to do.

My experience in the car business is exactly the same as MasterNSXTech. The German manufacturers ( Lamborghini is, after all, a VW product ) are committed to building cars that are objects of desire and status. This means that having the latest technology ( isn't having your car in constant communication with the AWS cloud something you have been craving? ) is very important. This allows massive turnover of new vehicles because the latest and greatest model is always the most desirable. That is the business model that sells the most new cars and, hence, generates the most profit. They strive to keep warranty cost down and have the owners, usually not the original owner, who choose to keep the car on the road after it is out of warranty pay high part and labor costs, thus generating more profit for themselves and their dealers. That being the case, why would they want to make parts that last beyond the warranty period? This strategy has been very successful and is why I stayed in the highend Eurocar business - that was where the money was.
The Japanese manufacturers, on the other hand, made a market for themselves by building low priced appliance cars. The people who bought them had low tolerance for needing to go to the dealer for anything or having to buy a new one very often. In my opinion this corporate culture is why the gen 1 NSX was what it was and why the gen 2 NSX is what it is. I would be very surprised if the gen 2 NSX is a huge sales success - or has anywhere near the warranty cost and buyback rate of the Germans.

 

[liftcontrol]

I would be very surprised if the gen 2 NSX is a huge sales success - or has anywhere near the warranty cost and buyback rate of the Germans.

Very true and completely logical reasoning.

But saying the logical is frequently the cause of the "fan boys" getting all unhappy on this forum

 

[fastaussie]

There are the super duper fanboys out there that think Ferrari is the greatest ever and will buy whatever they come out with. And they either are in denial about how many breakdowns they've had over the years or just have accepted it and it goes with owning a Ferrari and live with it. But for most people who casually buy the car and hope its going to give them years of trouble free operation? You burn them once or twice with some major failures, they're done. And they will probabmy not buy another from that brand again.

Ferrari is the greatest out there...

 

[NetViper]

Ferrari is the greatest out there...

How many have you owned?

 

[fastaussie]

not enough... :wink:

 

[BamaFan]

There are the super duper fanboys out there that think Ferrari is the greatest ever and will buy whatever they come out with. And they either are in denial about how many breakdowns they've had over the years or just have accepted it and it goes with owning a Ferrari and live with it. But for most people who casually buy the car and hope its going to give them years of trouble free operation? You burn them once or twice with some major failures, they're done. And they will probabmy not buy another from that brand again.

Try not to say "Ferrari" and "burn" in the same paragraph.

 

[fastaussie]

you don't remember NSX's burning recently?

 

[MasterNSXTech]

you don't remember NSX's burning recently?

Quite a bit of a difference when a single prototype catches fire while getting flogged taking laps around the 'ring versus five production model 458s light up just driving around the street.

And more recently, seven Lamborghinis barbecued themselves before they issued an embarrassing recall for fire risk.

 

[fastaussie]

don't worry, in time all of those cars will be on fire again, including the Japanese one. shit happens.

i was driving a Huracan at 120 mph once when the entire engine bay instantly engulfed in flames. in less than a minute the temperatures in the engine bay had reached over 1700 degrees Fahrenheit i was told, evidenced by the aluminum cross braces melted like candle wax. it was a new car, and it was something of a corporate event let's say. the culprit? the return fuel line popped off the fuel pump at speed and immediately ignited the thing. fuel fed fires rage fast and hard. we all thought it very strange because until that time there had never been a problem with a Huracan before. the car had been serviced the day before, and the mechanic hadn't properly connected the fuel lines. so there you go, not always the cars fault...

 

[u00mem91]

You guys are really cracking me up when claiming that a 200k sports car buyer gives a rat's rear about how reliable the car will be and how much they may need service. You are having trouble relating to this buyer profile...the same trouble Honda had.

THIS is why the guy wanted to move Cadillac HQ to Manhattan... You can't sell (or design) Ferrari's with Accord logic.

 

[QUICKIE]

You guys are really cracking me up when claiming that a 200k sports car buyer gives a rat's rear about how reliable the car will be and how much they may need service. You are having trouble relating to this buyer profile...the same trouble Honda had..

Agreed, because most buyers do not keep the car very long, at all. :smile:

 

[N Spec]

You guys are really cracking me up when claiming that a 200k sports car buyer gives a rat's rear about how reliable the car will be and how much they may need service. You are having trouble relating to this buyer profile...the same trouble Honda had.

THIS is why the guy wanted to move Cadillac HQ to Manhattan... You can't sell (or design) Ferrari's with Accord logic.

Really? So why are modern Ferrari offering so many free years of service for their new cars and they just magically have gotten more reliable over the years because Ferrari has nothing better to do?

 

[Bricks and Bio]

The 7 years of scheduled Mai tenancy that comes with F cars is about maintaining values for future transactions

with service included, it increases the likelihood that the cars will be maintained as intended and that mechanics periodically have a chance to check these cars out.

 

[tucsonsx]

The 7 years of scheduled Mai tenancy that comes with F cars is about maintaining values for future transactions

with service included, it increases the likelihood that the cars will be maintained as intended and that mechanics periodically have a chance to check these cars out.

It also gets the owner back in the dealership to look at all the shiny new models while they wait for their oil change - a certain percentage of whom trade their car in, buy accessories, or detailing. There is still no substitute for having the customer at the dealership as often as possible which is why the old 30k mile comprehensive service has been broken down into more smaller services.

 

[TTHardtimes]

I think the only real contender for the 2nd NSX with todays pricing is the Mcclaren 570s. I wouldn't buy one. I drive my cars. On rally's. Where you spend four days and at least 3500 miles flogging the car for all its got whether that be LA traffic or Death valley at high speeds. I drive at speed off and on the track regularly. I am the weakest point of the last three years worth of cars I have owned. Very few can get the max out of todays cars. Those that can still don't do it every day. Having flogged an AMG GTS for the past year, I can say I would drive that car anywhere anytime for as many years as I want. It is amazing and those of you that talk about reliability must be kidding. The audis which are lambos, Porsche, and AMGs of the world will hold up under extreme pressure for far longer than anyone has any right to expect. I would love to take my NA2 on rally's but frankly don't trust the cooling system on long high speed runs to measure up. I have seen too many NA2s fail on our runs. Mcclaren and Ferrari.. Same thing. They just don't seem to make it without any issues. I bought the new NSX to be different and because I love the heritage. It's my 5th NSX and I doubt there will ever be a point in time I do not have some iteration in my garage. The NSx isn't the fastest, it doesn't have the cornering ability of some of todays supercars, still doesn't have cup holders unless you plug them in, but it is a NSX. I love the brand, I love the car, and all you guys that say Honda failed... WHY? because they priced you out? Because you can't beat your neighbors tuned GTR? Our cars have never been the fastest.. hell a s2000 can beat my NA1 hands down.. When will the rear end come around on both my NA1 and NA2 is always nagging at the back of my mind.. But when I cruise the NA2 I never feel less than satisfied even today.. and so far, driving the new NSX has left me the same feeling.. It is fun to cruise with the windows down.. in stop and go traffic or at speed. It is a car I can drive every day which is what I always thought the NSX was supposed to be.

 

[Tom239]

I would love to take my NA2 on rally's but frankly don't trust the cooling system on long high speed runs to measure up. I have seen too many NA2s fail on our runs. .

Do you have the stock radiator? A bigger radiator was the best upgrade I made on my NSX. Mine's just an NA1, but I found the stock radiator inadequate on long uphill stretches in the summer. With a fatter radiator my coolant temperature never goes above 3/8 on the gauge no matter where I drive (and I live near Death Valley).

 

[jorligan]

Funny reading this thread, lots of mine is bigger than yours. On the other hand, with the original thread about "waking up", Acura needs to realize how they have seriously impaired the NSX from the onset with their marketing. They allowed their dealers to impair sales, possibly fatally. Having been an NSX die hard for many years, I was on the frontline ready to purchase the new NSX. I remember having met with the various designers and lead engineers at NSXPO but when it came time to buy the car, watched the games going on by the dealers. I was third in line at my local dealer but received offers from other local dealers to move up in their allocation for up to 50K. What bothers me is that Honda/Acura didn't learn from the first time when they released the first time and watch what was a truly landmark sports car die. They then released the Gen 2 trying to build on the heritage of Gen 1 and watched their dealer network severely hamper the marque. Now, there is a glut of unsold cars which will be sold at a significant discount. A discount will be expected in the future unless they regularly release a replacement (McLaren) or there is a special incentive to purchase at MSRP. They had an opportunity with the factory tour but be real, the competition offers a discount for European delivery or you get to go to beautiful Italy, not Ohio. Me, I got tired of the games, bought a 458 which seems to me to be more in line with the evolution of the Gen 1. Sold the NSX (Regretting it like all others before me) and possibly buying a discounted Gen2 if I can actually see the Nord Grey in person. At the current rate of sales and poor marketing, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gen 2 go the way of Gen 1 and ultimately, it may be one of the most exclusive supercars so don't put on too many miles.