Auraraptor said:
Yes, I know.
My point was, compared to the beautiful designs they have created past and present, Ferrari included, who approved that design or lack thereof ?
-j-
348 or NSX thread on Ferarri chat
- Thread starter Greg Z
- Start date
Yes, I know.
My point was, compared to the beautiful designs they have created past and present, Ferrari included, who approved that design or lack thereof ?
-j-
I should probably correct myself: Faster in some respects, slower in others.Auraraptor said:
Well if you think that is bad...you should see some of their sedan designs! :tongue: (not including the 4port, which I actually like)jimmycinla said:
Auraraptor said:
They even designed a hotel here in San Diego, The Keating.
j
Auraraptor said:
The F512M might have fixed the problems, but they also made the car ugly IMO and ruined the classic lines. I'll pass.
Just got some rides in the F430 this weekend. WOW, that car rules.
Auraraptor said:
I know what you're saying but if you're challenging whether Ferraris are poorly made than that is dreaming as well.
I'm not saying that there are are not past or future F owners who don't love the pre 430 models. I'm putting forth that a great deal of those people purchase those models because they simply want to get into the "club". And this is speculation but I would venture to say that the vast majority of pre-F430 owners cannot afford a F430.
I think that the 308/328 and the 355 are really great, cool looking cars. I'm not questioning that. But to suggest that these cars are comfortable and/or reliable is really outrageous.
If you read my post carefully you'll see I have no problem with anyone buying a Ferrari as long as they realize and call it what it is. It's a slower, less comfortable, far less reliable, tempermental car that can't be driven the same way that, say, an NSX can. If you love Jaguar, or an XKE, that's fine. But don't compare Jaguar to Lexus or think it can be driven like one.
It's pretty clear to me that Ferrari never produced cars with the resale consumer in mind. When you buy a used Ferrari you're running the gauntlet.
My definition of crap is something that's uncomfortable, slow and unreliable, all of which the older Ferraris are. Would I own one? Maybe, but I would do so realizing it's crap. Very pretty crap. Cars are built to carry you from point A to point B and when a car breaks down before point B or has issues and your back hurts after you get to point B something doesn't make sense to me.
When I think about why I would like to own a Ferrari I realize it's basically brand. It's what Ferrari represents. It's psychological. I mean, they do look great of course but as a car, that's it. I think the NSX looks as good as the 360 and better than the 355. That's just my opinion but the point is there are cars that look just as good. So what are you left with? A little horse.
Auraraptor said:
I even hate the wheels!:biggrin:
And you base this on how many Ferraris you have owned?NSXGMS said:
I personally know quite a few people who use 3x8s are daily drivers and they work just fine.
I assume you think a 360CS also is a crap car as its uncomfortable? A real sports car should not be comfortable...that is what GT cars are for. Think the return to the routes Elise/CS/and porsche gt3 style cars.
Incidentally from my seat time, the cars are not uncomfortable. Sure its no S class, but the actual ride is rather pleasant. Only complaint is that it can get hot in the cockpit..something true about most all 80s MR cars.
What Lexus can you POSSIBLE compare a XKE too? Would you consider it a crap car based on its performance (or lack there of)? Would you consider the vast majority of cars made before 1985 in the same light? BTW this is an XKE, as it seems that you do not know what model it is even: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=XKE&btnG=Search+Images
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How polar everyone is to the wheels really really amazes me. You either love 'em or hate 'em.NetViper said:
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308s are extremely reliable daily drivers and even for a v8 easy on the gas. Value has been on the increase from the past couple years.Auraraptor said:
A GT2 Porsche isnt that comfortable but performance wise its a piece of work. The NSX has an all around touch of finesse to it in that it has the best of all worlds on the track or off.
I agree, as i have stated in the past which applies here.
Angelo08 said:
I certainly have not heard they are reliable, but I am not sure.
From talking to a bunch of Ferrari guys this weekend, it sounds like the 360 and up seem pretty reliable.
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My brother's been using a 1980 GTSi as a daily driver with no issues for over 5yrs now. Having a 95 355 other than doing the t-belt also has been problem free. The TR on the other hand isnt as good/reliable, since it requires much more attention and frequent maintenance.NetViper said:
Auraraptor said:
Well I'm sure you know your Ferrari facts and that you're here ,because some of my colleagues were on the Ferrari site. To my point now. The 360 from everything I've found has only 20 additional hp and weighs 60lbs less than the 355. This does indeed translate into "a bit" faster ,but it still is within the realm of the 355 as much as a NA2 coupe. I was using C&D as a comparison. Their "real life" tests same year 1999 a Zanardi coupe and a 360 Modena. Was the Modena faster? Yes , but at lower speeds they were comparable especially in the 5-60 ( street roll test ). Braking within a few feet. Same with roadholding. As far as torque goes the Modena has 51 more so yes it probably does feel "more torquey" ( is torquey a real word?? ).
Nice chatting with you. Oh just so you know I did not post on your website although I did read a few pages and I'm not quite sure why you're here. Your group is already quite convinced of the 348's ( or any Ferraris for that matter ) superiority simply because it's a Ferrari so why bother with we mere mortals. No question mark as this is more rhetorical.
Auraraptor said:
I own an Elise. I do so because it has a Yamaha/Toyota engine and transmission. It also gives performance unlike anything else in it's class and it is an excellent value. I have found it to be quite reliable and the maintenance costs are very reasonable. I'm also very happy with Lotus North America's support for the secondary market, unlike what I suspect you'll find with Ferrari.
I could care less that it says "LOTUS". I bought the car for what it can do and nothing else. It does not break or cause problems and is quite comfortable considering it's basically a luxury go-kart.
It might be uncomfortable but that is a function of it's performance. It is what it is and I don't compare it to anything else. I love it for what it is and more Ferrari owners should feel the same way about their cars instead of simply insisting their cars are the best. The Elise is far from the best in many, many ways. But it is the best in other ways.
IMO, Lotus has an excuse for the car being so uncomfortable. Ferrari does not. And they most certainly don't overcharge for an inferior product the way Ferrari does, strictly speaking, IMO.
Let me be quite clear--I love Ferraris and I would consider owning one. I would consider owning a pre-430 for collectibility's sake and I would consider owning a 599GTB or F430 because those cars appear to be acceptably non-crap and they are not slow and uncomfortable. I'm just honest about why I would buy and own one.
Im with Aura - the 512M is one of the most beautiful Fcars ever made. I like its lines more than an F355 even.
Dave - tell us about your ride in the F430. I lapped with one, which was driven by someone who was semi new to the track. He was going fine, not fast, but he was driving good lines and was having a fun day. Then he made the mistake of putting it in race mode. Didnt make it a single lap before he spun round and round and round. Thank god he didnt hit anything and he was none the worse for wear. Smarter for the experience too.
Aura - Im sure that there are lots of true enthusiasts on FC, and Im sure they're the silent ones over there. Im also sure that there is no shortage of brand whores who could care less about the actual car, but they bought that awesome little GT4 ONLY because its an Fcar.
Dave - tell us about your ride in the F430. I lapped with one, which was driven by someone who was semi new to the track. He was going fine, not fast, but he was driving good lines and was having a fun day. Then he made the mistake of putting it in race mode. Didnt make it a single lap before he spun round and round and round. Thank god he didnt hit anything and he was none the worse for wear. Smarter for the experience too.
Aura - Im sure that there are lots of true enthusiasts on FC, and Im sure they're the silent ones over there. Im also sure that there is no shortage of brand whores who could care less about the actual car, but they bought that awesome little GT4 ONLY because its an Fcar.
I've always love the TR's/512 (if it wasnt for realiability issues I'd have one) but I also agree the 512 wheels needs to go :biggrin:Auraraptor said:
The morons who are getting on your nerves by bashing the NSX on fchat get on our nerves (the veteran fchatters) as well. The diehard, veteran F car owners over there are not bashing the NSX; they are praising it.
Don't sweat it when you read about a few yahoos bashing the NSX. They do the same thing over there with the Z06, Porsche Turbo, etc.
When all they can come up with is "passion", you know you've already won.
Don't sweat it when you read about a few yahoos bashing the NSX. They do the same thing over there with the Z06, Porsche Turbo, etc.
When all they can come up with is "passion", you know you've already won.
Actually, I was here first then moved to FC after I sold my NSX. I still come back every so often and browse and sometimes post, though not as often.WingZ said:
I was using my "seat of pants feel" from experiance with both cars, the NA2 being my own, and the 360 was of a friend's.
I actually like the NSX MORE then the 348 and posted to such. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions/errors that might be posted here.
You must of have missed the rest of the thread. True some die hard 348ers love their cars to the end, but they are always like that...try searching for a 348 versus 328 thread or 348 vs TR/512TR/355/insert your poisen. That said you must have missed all the pro NSX posts from Ferrari owners (and often times former NSX owners).
NSXGMS said:
Which Ferrari's are uncomfortable? I can't think of one that is less comfortable then an elise with sport suspension. If you say ANY of the early 3x8 cars, I cannot understand as they are more comfortable and roomy then an elise, with the later cars even more so.
Slow? You are talking about some cars that are in some respects over 20 years old in design! How quick they forget even the now slow Testarossa (design circa 1983/4, based in on itself on a design from 1971/2!) was for a while the fastest production car made. It shows you are still at the fast = good stage and have not developed beyond it. It's ok, each his own.
It is amazing you STILL can't understand that just because its not fast in a modern sense doesn't make it a 'crappy car'...very soon even the NA2 NSX's will be 'slow' cars. A SL55/SL600 can walk away from it all day long and match/beat it on most highpower tracks, all while having the radio blasting, seats cooling, etc. Does it make the NSX a bad car since it is relatively slow? No. The NSX has its own charm that should be what attracted you to it.
Just because it is slow does not make it crappy. Here is another example you might better understand. Would you consider a 300SL Gullwing a crappy car? That car cannot even break into the 6s in sprints to 60! Not to mention in turns it also has a nasty habit of losing its back end! So in that light why would someone want to own it? The reason: its a classic, and nothing quite drives like it!
BTW for my nearly 20 year old car the dealer comes and picks up my car from my house (over 100 miles away) in a covered transport for anything including just an oil change....FOR FREE. Parts are generally available, if expensive, but no more then modern Mercedes parts costs...and parts are pretty much the only reason I would/do need FerrariNA or FerrariSPA...I mean what else would I need from them? It is not like I have a warranty!
Seems to me you have too much the way of hearsay which you think is truth about the cars.
BTW, Lotus does not overcharge?
...50k for a stripped down tiny car with a Toyota drivetrain? It should not cost more then a S2000...espcially not over 50% more! Also, look at lotus sourced parts and their costs...
That said, Lotus NA is very nice and are a bunch of great people to deal with. Very VERY accommodating, in a way no other manufacturer is. (Honda included)
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Well said. Trust me, if you think I am vocal in defending a 3x8, you should ask Netviper how much I defend the NSX when the tables are turned.Chromatose said:
I love both cars, I just don't like people make naive assumptions about either.
The 512M is very under appreciated. Only 75 in the US, about 430hp factory at crank in a lightened 512 body...the car actually weighed not much more than a 355 (and less then a 355spider!). Now , remove the cats (precats included), and exhaust + headers, and add a chip and you will be able to outrun C5 Z06s! Get the brembo brake kit for it, and you will be able brake with the best of them too!BioBanker said:
How I long for a 512M...
Wish it was mine. :-(ediddynsx said:
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