Xbox 360 Flops in Japan

Oh well, more 360's for us.

Actually, after looking at the 360, I think my PC looks just as good or better. I don't think the PS3 will be that much better. Even if it is, the PC will eclipse it in a year or so.
 
maybe they screwed up again and made the controllers too big =o
LOL
 
I just bought a used copy of Need for Speed Underground for my PS2. I haven't turned my console on probably 3xs this year. Needless to say, I'm in no hurry to have the latest and greatest game out there.:smile:
 

Xbox 360 takes a chance and strikes first, PS3 has the advantage of waiting to see what happens when the dust settles and will obviously be more advanced than the 360 since Sony has the ability to delay deployment until a much later date. If some genius figures out a more efficient way to manufacture Blue Ray Discs then the PS3 will totally pown XBOX 360 decisively since that will set it up to be the future 'dvd format' of choice.


This wasn't about MS taking a chance and releasing XBox360 first -- every one of the 3 manufacturers were dying to get their product out first. MS simply beat the other two to the punch. PS3 ran into major issues with using the cell chip for graphics and had to make a very late change by using an outside vendor for their graphics. They are desperately trying to get the HW ready for spring, so no... they don't have any time to be making changes to the HW this late in the game in response to MS.

By the way, as far as I know, the PS3 will only contain an MPEG-2 decoder, not an H.264 decoder. This means that at best, some early HD content may play on the PS3, but all of the 'real' content from the studios will be encoded in H.264 or VC1 and the PS3 won't be able to play that back (based on my understanding). Sony has stated that all of the stuff they'll be releasing in the immediate future on Blu-Ray will be MPEG-2 only. So they're using Blu-Ray to push its adoption and for the additional storage -- but it won't play back your High Def DVD titles.
 
Arshad said:

Xbox 360 takes a chance and strikes first, PS3 has the advantage of waiting to see what happens when the dust settles and will obviously be more advanced than the 360 since Sony has the ability to delay deployment until a much later date. If some genius figures out a more efficient way to manufacture Blue Ray Discs then the PS3 will totally pown XBOX 360 decisively since that will set it up to be the future 'dvd format' of choice.


This wasn't about MS taking a chance and releasing XBox360 first -- every one of the 3 manufacturers were dying to get their product out first. MS simply beat the other two to the punch. PS3 ran into major issues with using the cell chip for graphics and had to make a very late change by using an outside vendor for their graphics. They are desperately trying to get the HW ready for spring, so no... they don't have any time to be making changes to the HW this late in the game in response to MS.

By the way, as far as I know, the PS3 will only contain an MPEG-2 decoder, not an H.264 decoder. This means that at best, some early HD content may play on the PS3, but all of the 'real' content from the studios will be encoded in H.264 or VC1 and the PS3 won't be able to play that back (based on my understanding). Sony has stated that all of the stuff they'll be releasing in the immediate future on Blu-Ray will be MPEG-2 only. So they're using Blu-Ray to push its adoption and for the additional storage -- but it won't play back your High Def DVD titles.


damn... i got served! microsoft still sucks :biggrin:
 
Arshad said:

Xbox 360 takes a chance and strikes first, PS3 has the advantage of waiting to see what happens when the dust settles and will obviously be more advanced than the 360 since Sony has the ability to delay deployment until a much later date. If some genius figures out a more efficient way to manufacture Blue Ray Discs then the PS3 will totally pown XBOX 360 decisively since that will set it up to be the future 'dvd format' of choice.


This wasn't about MS taking a chance and releasing XBox360 first -- every one of the 3 manufacturers were dying to get their product out first. MS simply beat the other two to the punch. PS3 ran into major issues with using the cell chip for graphics and had to make a very late change by using an outside vendor for their graphics. They are desperately trying to get the HW ready for spring, so no... they don't have any time to be making changes to the HW this late in the game in response to MS.

By the way, as far as I know, the PS3 will only contain an MPEG-2 decoder, not an H.264 decoder. This means that at best, some early HD content may play on the PS3, but all of the 'real' content from the studios will be encoded in H.264 or VC1 and the PS3 won't be able to play that back (based on my understanding). Sony has stated that all of the stuff they'll be releasing in the immediate future on Blu-Ray will be MPEG-2 only. So they're using Blu-Ray to push its adoption and for the additional storage -- but it won't play back your High Def DVD titles.

Being that the Cell chip is the god of all chips (being slightly sarcastic, but that's what the media has been saying), why wouldn't Sony be able to create a software H.264 decoder? Who cares if it doesn't have hardware support? Doesn't the new Quicktime support H.264? I thought I had d/l a demo video recently of a H.264 encoded HD feed. It ran decently on my oldish middle of the road computer so I'm sure the PS3 won't have an issue with it.

I think the reason Sony was saying they were sticking to MPEG2 for HD video (and I'm pretty sure sticking with Mpeg2 doesn't prevent you from having HD resolution) is because they believe they can get better video quality from it, vs some Mpeg 4 varient that hasn't really been fully worked out yet. Main thing that mpeg4 beings to the table, as i understand it, is better compression. If you have huge storage space, as Blu-ray does, u don't have to be all that worried about compression the data as much as u possibly can.

Also, was the PS3 originally not supposed to have a GPU? I'd be surprised if that were the case. I've read that the Cell chip is challenging to program for because of multiple cores that it has. I'm sure that will become less of a problem as developers become more accustomed to it and better tools come out. Even the 360 cpu has 3 cores each capable of handling 2 threads simultaneously.

How come they're bitching about 326k 360 units sold in Japan when they ONLY released 400k units to the US on launch day??? That's ridiculous. I'm sure the US has sold 1million+ now, but still, we only got 400k that first week.

I'm sure this will make enemies, but I strongly believe this whole 360 release insanity in the US is mainly hype. Grab a HD cable for you old xbox. A lot of the games look nearly as good as the 360. And heaven forbid u don't have an HD tv.... in that case the 360 really brings nothing to the table. Don't believe me? There are multiple sites online comparing games on the xbox and xbox 360. Plus the initial games aren't even that good. They're a batch of very rushed games. I'm not a Sony fan boy (I think sony as a company sux lately) but I think the PS3 is gonna own the 360 when it comes out. Halo3? Bah, 1 game doesn't make a system. :biggrin:
 
VampNSX said:
X-Box = vett
PS2 = NSX

360 = Z06
PS3 = HSC



Oh, I loved the way you compared this!


I bought Playstation in 1996, Playstation 2 in 2000 and I will without doubt be first in line here to get me a Playstation 3 too :D

Xbox... Neh... That's just Bill trying to make a good console.
 
In Japan, I expected the Xbox 360 to flop, but not harder than the original Xbox. The 360 has a lot more potential for success than the original (and Microsoft seemed to be doing a lot more to try and sell it to the Japanese market), but I can see many reasons why the Japanese would want to hold out for the PS3. Video game sales in Japan in general have been on the decline, so there's even more incentive to hold out for a box that does double duty (meaning BluRay DVD) or is more all purpose as a high-def media center PC (I hope Sony pulls out all the stops and includes DVR capability...but, knowing how Sony loves to cripple their players' capabilities, I'm not counting on it).

PS2 essentially gave the Japanese market their start with the original DVD standard...so PS3 is a logical upgrade. Plus it is also backwards compatible with a library of games that many Japanese already own...so they only need to hook one box up to their TV to play three generations of games, two generations of movie formats, blah, blah, blah.

I did see Xbox 360 displays in Akihabara...not too many people playing (and it only appeared that the latest Dead or Alive was being used in the boxes for demo purposes). It's funny that a game with "DOA" as the abbreviated title is the one game that Japanese truly seem to want to play on both generations of Xboxes.
 
It seems that even DOA is not selling in Japan... but you probably know, they have weird tastes in games: no FPS and sport games. Some driving... and a lot of beat-em-up, RPG, puzzle, party games :confused:, ... that is what sells there.


Furthermore I am more and more convinced that games are not the root of the probelm with the Xbox in Japan: they are so loyal to Sony that it does not care how good the console is. They won't buy it.
 

Being that the Cell chip is the god of all chips (being slightly sarcastic, but that's what the media has been saying), why wouldn't Sony be able to create a software H.264 decoder? Who cares if it doesn't have hardware support? Doesn't the new Quicktime support H.264? I thought I had d/l a demo video recently of a H.264 encoded HD feed. It ran decently on my oldish middle of the road computer so I'm sure the PS3 won't have an issue with it.


The real problem is that the studios have not defined what HD format they will be releasing the content in. A number of criteria (resolution: 720p vs 1080i, entropy encoding method: CAVLC vs CABAC, overall bitrate) will determine just how much compute power you will need to decode the HD stream. The issue is that the HD streams can require an order of magnitude more storage space than conventional 480p (DVD res), but the new media does not offer an order of magnitude more storage than today's dual layer DVD's. Consequently, the studios really need to crank up the compression to get the storage requirements down.

So yes, QT7 supports H.264 and does an admirable job of it (particularly on a Mac where it is highly optimized), but if you throw a 1080i 30Mb CABAC stream at a top-of-the-line dual-CPU G5, it will just barely be able to decode it in realtime. The Pentium4 is even worse... you need a dual core CPU clocked at around 4.5Ghz (which doesnt exist) in order to accomplish the same. So yeah, the stuff that's encoded for downloading and playing on joe-shmoe computers will be very low bitrate, use CAVLC, and perhaps be limited to 720p. That's easy. Now throw a hard stream at it, and it'll bring your PC to its knees. To make matters worse, stuff you're downloading off the net doesn't have any of the AACS encryption or any of the multi-plane compositing requirements that BluRay and HDDVD movies will have.

The bottom line is that the studios can make it pretty much impossible to decode their content on today's conventional PC's without a dedicated decoder. Will they go that far? They might. They've never liked the idea of PC's playing back DVD's (because they are inherently less secure than a consumer electronic player). They are even more freaked out about the thought of their HD content being pirated. To them it makes a lot of sense to make it hard to play back their stuff on PC's. Plus their bigger incentive to crank up the compression is to fit the same level of content you expect on a DVD onto the new format discs (ie trailers, featurettes, bonus features, etc)

Now going back to whether the cell can do the H.264 decode in SW. For less taxing streams, sure. For the kind of stuff I'm talking about above, it's not so clear. One of the big factors is the CABAC entropy decode which can only be done on the master CPU in a cell structure. I'd say it might be possible to pull off in SW but will require some masterful programming and use of the SIMD units as well as leveraging the GPU.


I think the reason Sony was saying they were sticking to MPEG2 for HD video (and I'm pretty sure sticking with Mpeg2 doesn't prevent you from having HD resolution) is because they believe they can get better video quality from it, vs some Mpeg 4 varient that hasn't really been fully worked out yet.


Right, MPEG-2 can support 1080i and such as well (and in fact, that's what's being used for HDTV broadcasts on satellite/cable). MPEG-4 has been fully worked out, and you can get better compression than MPEG-2. In fact, H.264 is actually MPEG-4 part 10.


If you have huge storage space, as Blu-ray does, u don't have to be all that worried about compression the data as much as u possibly can.


As I noted above, the problem is that the HD video can take up waaaay more space than standard DVD's, but the storage medium hasn't grown as quickly. Hence the reason for H.264 -- otherwise they would have just stuck with MPEG-2 and be done with it.


Also, was the PS3 originally not supposed to have a GPU? I'd be surprised if that were the case. I've read that the Cell chip is challenging to program for because of multiple cores that it has. I'm sure that will become less of a problem as developers become more accustomed to it and better tools come out. Even the 360 cpu has 3 cores each capable of handling 2 threads simultaneously.


Yeah Sony had originally anticipated that the Cell SIMD units would be rendering all the graphics and that they would not require a dedicated GPU. Guess they were wrong :-) The problem with the multi-core thing on the Cell is that it's not the same as the 360 CPU. On the Cell you have one main in-order master CPU and a bunch of slave SIMD CPU's. The code you run on those have to be algorithms which are inherently parallelizable, and there are all kinds of nasty issues with how you DMA the data to and from each of these cores. This is very different from a traditional multi-core CPU that can run multiple generic threads. Bottom line is that it's very powerful, but limited to a certain class of algorithms and seriously hard to code for.


Plus the initial games aren't even that good. They're a batch of very rushed games. I'm not a Sony fan boy (I think sony as a company sux lately) but I think the PS3 is gonna own the 360 when it comes out.


Yeah, but most consoles have this issue when they come out (other than Nintendo). The initial titles suck, and over time the developers get better at understanding the systems limitations and working around them and extracting better performance. All of the early titles are largely developed on very early developer boxes that don't even properly represent the final hardware. I think it's a bad idea to judge what the console is capable of based on the current slew of games. Give them a few months at least. The same will hold true on the PS3.
 
92NSX said:
Kinda crazy with that console. Couple of weeks ago people were paying stupid money$$$$$$$ to get these things. Now the other night I was at BestBuy and they had about 50 sitting on floor for sale. Went back last night and didn't look like maybe 5 sold out of stack.
PT Barnum was right......

And here I thought I was the only guy who goes to BestBuy on a daily basis.:biggrin:
 
Arshad, Thanks for the explanations. Lots of Bue-ray players were shown at CES. Can't wait to see one in person. Most impressive was the HD-DVD player that was announced for $500. I'm sure that sent a lot of manufacturers scrambling who thought they would get $1000+ for their initial players.

About the initial 360 games, I'm sure graphically they will improve greatly over time. That has been true of all previous systems. When I said that the games were dissapointing I was referring more to the actual game content and game play. Many of the games were just rehashes of existing xbox games with slightly improved graphics. Maybe half of the games, if that, were developed from the ground up for the 360. Madden for the 360 looks great because they developed a 360 specific graphics engine. With game like Tony Hawk u'd think u were playing on the old xbox. 360 Madden is missing a lot of the features that were included in the latest xbox Madden. That's what leads me to think the games were rushed.

I think if sony can drop a couple key games like GT5, maybe a new Final Fantasy and Kill Zone (sony's Halo fighter) with the system release they will do very well.
 
No problem Doug. There's so much marketing hype and so much technical confusion that it's pretty much impossible to figure out what the heck is going on these days :D

The problem with the initial games is that when the developers don't have enough time to prepare with early dev kits, they throw out existing games with slightly improved graphics in order to be first to market. The "real" games are the ones that are currently in development on real systems, and won't be out for some time.

BTW, you're an Apple guy right? Jobs should be going up for his keynote in an hour -- should be interesting!
 
Arshad said:
No problem Doug. There's so much marketing hype and so much technical confusion that it's pretty much impossible to figure out what the heck is going on these days :D

The problem with the initial games is that when the developers don't have enough time to prepare with early dev kits, they throw out existing games with slightly improved graphics in order to be first to market. The "real" games are the ones that are currently in development on real systems, and won't be out for some time.

BTW, you're an Apple guy right? Jobs should be going up for his keynote in an hour -- should be interesting!

ya, unfortunately hype is almost more important than actual technology and content these days. Guess that means our technology has gotten to a level so high that it's not really the discriminating factor anymore.

I've actually been mostly a PC guy in the past. I do like OSX and have started playing with that a bit more lately. I write a lot of embedded linux applications so OSX makes for a pretty nice environment where i can code and also access all my MS Office docs easily. So what do u think Job's big announcement will be? The intel laptops? I might be forced to pick one up if they're as good as people think they'll be.
 
Unfortunately, I'm legally bound not to speculate on Apple announcements (I work directly with Apple on their HW and have a lot of insight into their plans).

Embedded linux eh? That's something that I'm starting to look into now for a non-work-related project I'm going to be starting soon. We're looking at deploying on a Freescale i.MX1. I've got a lot of low level coding experience, but not embedded specifically. Have you been doing it for a while?
 
Check your contact.... I'm pretty sure it says if you PM me the inside info it's allowed ;)

I'll drop u a PM so we don't bore everyone else with nerd talk =)
 
From what I've read, feature films on both HD-DVD and BluRay DVD will be encoded at 1080p, not 720p or 1080i.
 
My roomate bought an Xbox 360 last night, so i picked up Project Gotham Racing- we have it connected to the 62" flat in the back room- looks damn good to me, but I am hardly a graphics critic. I know I am impressed with what I see.
I like to play driving games, and the online capability of PGR interests me. I haven't ventured out onto Xbox live yet, I am still adapting my driving from the GT1-4 series. i have played each verion of GT until fingers bled, but PGR is a VERY different animal.
PGR uses the "triggers" on the controllers for throttle, and brake- it is interesting because you can modulate the application of each, and that gives the vehicle dynamics a more "real" feeling. It is taking a little getting used to, but I was doing pretty well with the Noble M400 I bought for their simulation mode.

By the way- an NSX GT is immediately obtainable with your starter budget.

The Tiger Woods Golf game is a lot of fun too.

I like it! Thumbs up from my house!
 
I have decided to just buy one right after my mid-terms are over. Problem is that I still dont know if I should just buy the core or the better one for $100 more. I plan on buying PGR3 and a years subscription on the gold xbox linve thing. Plus, where can I find one now at it's MSRP?
 
Since many of the initial Blu-Ray disc players are being priced in the $1000+ price range and the PS3 is going to be a game console+BluRay player what does that mean for it's initial sale price? Is it going to be a $1000+ game console? At that price might as well just buy a high-powered media center PC.
 
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