Would/when will you desert the U.S.A.??

[jorligan]

Red,
Before you use Canada as the superior, I think that your bigotry is just as rampant, maybe not as vocal. I wouldn't want to be a homosexual in the plains of Canada just like I wouldn't want to be th only black person at a KKK rally. I remember being in Montreal as well as in Mont Tremblant and not getting any service since I don't speak french. Funny, but my brother who was with me in Montreal didn't have any issues. Also in Vancouver at a restaurant, my brother and myself walked in first and we had no issues since we are of Asian background but as soon as my wife and a friend of our walked in, we no longer got any service and we got to listen to the waiters arguing with the manager that they weren't going to serve us since we had "whites" in our group. In regards to medicine, since I am just across the border, we get a fair number of patients who are willing to pay out of pocket because they are unwilling to wait for the Canadian health care system to take care of their medical issues, hip replacement last was a 2 year wait. They offer exellent primary care, as long as you live in a major metropolitan area but other areas suffer in contrast.

I do agree with you that we need to change our priorities, if we reduced our military and allowed the rest of the world to fend for themselves, well, we would really have no issues, I am not speaking of Iraq but all of Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Africa and South America. This would essentially put the US in a military position similar to pre WW1.

No place is perfect in regards to tolerance and bigotry so I think that to make broad generalities for diverse regions reflects our ignorance, mine included.

Since this is an election year, the good news is that we have some voice in change in the US and with the internet, there can now be more discussion of concens. Before you make blanket judgements, I would suggest that we all should look at the presidential candidates and look at their positions on what many have identified as problems like health care. I think that it is also equally important that you actually do the research into where they get their opinion. An example is that supporters of universal health care site an article published by the School of Pubic Health at Harvard University that states that heart attack rates would decline if we had universal health care. The basis of the decline is a public pole with a question "If we had universal health care, would heart attack rates decline, yes or no" There was no clinical data to support their conclusion in the paper and they point it out but this information is never mentioned. This paper is then used as a reference to point out the flaws in lack of insurance coverage. I think that we will have Universal health insurance but it will be paid for by most of you who don't already have insurance between the ages of 18-45. This is the age group who will pay but not use any of the resources.

 

[Ski_Banker]

I think that the origin of SkiBanker's original thread query is this:

He recently moved to London, where (among lots of other places), gossip about the perceived impending fall/economic crash/destruction/disintegration of the US is rampant.

While media coverage may differ between the U.S. and abroad, on what is actually happening in the credit crisis, my (financial) opinions are based on first hand experience as a finance professional. So...CNBC isn't really influencing me.

What is:
The credit crunch will only get worse over the coming months. And, I DON'T think that our government, or any government for that matter, has the resources necessary to counteract a global financial meltdown. That's something that I, among many others including Warren Buffett, have feared for years but without knowing *when the flashpoint will occur*. That's why, last July/Aug, I wrote that this could get very very bad if the snowball gets underway, but it might not. It has. If you think that the U.S. government/Fed can hold back an entire world of "sellers" you have a lot to learn.

Every country will be impacted, but the U.S. is ground zero for a leveraged economy. Not just financial leverage by citizens, municipalities, the Federal gov't, and businesses. But operating leverage, that makes any hiccup that much more painful..(yes, that is quite serious)... Doesn't leverage just allow for the current consumption of a future, not yet produced good? That's what I thought, at least, when I "bought" a new BMW with a loan, when I didn't have the $ to buy one with cash.

The U.S. cannot afford its obligations. It will either default (much less likely and years away) or inflate the $ to minimize its liabilities. That works for foreign debts, but not for liabilities such as social security and medicare. Further, the quick poll above suggests that 50% of this select population would leave the country if things got bad enough. So... 90% taxes, as in the late 50s, aren't an option. Those wealthy taxpayers will all leave. It's a global economy now, remember?

Security. Well, you know all the concerns here. I don't think it will get better, although hopefully the big brother trends will stabilize at least.

Globalisation. I actually think this trend may start to reverse, to the detriment of free traders and pure capitalists. Listen to the populist language being used by Clinton and Obama (primaries...I know...but still there is a globalisation backlash growing). Hugo Chavez is in power for just that reason, to the detriment of the Venezuelan economy. Either eay, the wealthiest U.S. citizens, that pay the vast majority of U.S. taxes, can now live anywhere in the world that they want.

One last point. For the die-hard, markets rule capitalists that say that the U.S. is the greatest place on earth ---> how much, in terms of higher taxes, would you pay for your right to vote? Pure capitalists wouldn't pay a single $. :wink:

 

[da3dalus]

^^^ Boom. On the head. I couldn't agree more. I too was screaming from the top of my lungs in June that this was going to get really nasty, and become worse than what anyone was thinking. I seriously see this turning into a depression, not a recession.

 

[jond]

Correction - the USA is still THE best place to live.

By what logic????

.
.

 

[Commander]

I have to agree with Ski on this topic. Most people that I have met that were born and raised in the USA and know nothing about the outside world say that America is great, this would include those that came here from other countries and had nothing. I've worked all over the world and vacationed in some nice spots also - In the end though the good old USA is very expensive to live in.<O</O
<O</O

I have given some serious thoughts to retiring outside the USA, one major reason is taxes and cost of living. It's not going to get better and anyone who thinks it will is dreaming. There are a lot of wonderful places in this world that are EXPAT friendly and have everything that the USA has to offer in regards to infrastructure, medical, etc. I can always fly back home to visit family and friends and in the end, my savings will go 10+ times as far in a foreign land.<O</O
<O</O

One example of how greedy the Fed has gotten is in regards to taxes - it is a federal law that if you are a US citizen that you have to pay taxes on all foreign earned income to include in some instances foreign owned assets such as land or homes. We are the only country that does this because the system is hungry to be fed with more tax dollars to send overseas to foreign countries - we are so busy being nice to everyone else that we have technically sold our country to foreign investors and the only way to stay ahead is tax the crap out of everyone for everything...<O</O
<O</O

It still chaps my a#$ every time I pay property tax on my three vehicles that I have owned for years and like everyone else paid sales tax on... You can't even own anything anymore without a yearly tax of ownership being applied because the government is too busy spoon feeding everyone else that won't get off there a#$ and work for a living... (This statement is not totally encompassing of everyone considering situations are individual)<O</O
<O</O

My opinion, love the USA but I have to survive and I'm not about giving 40% of my income a year to the government so they can throw a party.

 

[Red]

Red,
Before you use Canada as the superior, I think that your bigotry is just as rampant, maybe not as vocal. I wouldn't want to be a homosexual in the plains of Canada just like I wouldn't want to be th only black person at a KKK rally.

I'm not saying there are no bigots in Canada, I'm not even saying that everyone in Canada thinks like me.

What I am saying it that in Canada, we've gone through the trouble of enacting laws that allow individuals to have rights and freedoms, and when individual rights and freedoms are challanged our system favours the individual.

Gay people can get married and have legal status anywhere in Canada - regardless of what individuals in communities think - just like you have the right to speak enlish in Montreal - even if some people aren't respectful of that. You can have an abortion anywhere in Canada and people can't picket the abortion clinics and impede your rights - they will be arrested.

Right now we have some seiks suing the government for the right not to wear motorcycle helmets since they don't fit over their turbans - they will win because true freedom of religion overrules all else.

Yes, Canada is far from perfect, but we would never allow special interest groups to compromise individual rights and freedoms and we certainly wouldn't take them away in the name of "national security".

 

[WingZ]

Red,
Before you use Canada as the superior, I think that your bigotry is just as rampant, maybe not as vocal. I wouldn't want to be a homosexual in the plains of Canada just like I wouldn't want to be th only black person at a KKK rally.

Might not be too bad if you have the sheet and hood on .. LOL

 

[sahtt]

I follow the money. It's nothing personal. I also just need an internet connection to do what I do for the most part and am mobile. It's still the best place and with lower [competitive] corporate tax rates who knows. I'm looking at Asia for a potential move in 3-5 years.

 

[docjohn]

I love the xpat idealogy,succeed in america and get out with as much as you can,to avoid what you think are high taxes Start over why don't you,but in whatever country you wanted to end up in and see how much wealth you have acumulated:wink: Putzes:tongue: There is a reason we have the largest "middle class" on earth,and the American dream does exist!Try being born into humble beginnings in all those places where your acumulated american dollars go so far and lets see how you do in the 2nd-3rd world reality of the have lots and the dirt poor:frown: Ski man you are the president of the Hypocrates fan club:tongue:

 

[Ski_Banker]

I love the xpat idealogy,succeed in america and get out with as much as you can,to avoid what you think are high taxes Start over why don't you,but in whatever country you wanted to end up in and see how much wealth you have acumulated:wink: Putzes:tongue: There is a reason we have the largest "middle class" on earth,and the American dream does exist!Try being born into humble beginnings in all those places where your acumulated american dollars go so far and lets see how you do in the 2nd-3rd world reality of the have lots and the dirt poor:frown: Ski man you are the president of the Hypocrates fan club:tongue:

I don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever. Wake up...

 

[docjohn]

I don't see any hypocrisy whatsoever. Wake up...

If I "wake up" then I have to deal with all those little tubes poping off ,,and getting sucked into the sewer system,and hope someone will lift me out of the slime

 

[jond]

I follow the money. It's nothing personal. I also just need an internet connection to do what I do for the most part and am mobile.

That brings up an interesting point.

I think the majority of the white collar jobs in the US will be 100% mobile in 15 years. When this happens I think a lot more people will move around, AS WILL businesses. Why have your corporate office in NewYork when your employees are all over the world?

I see in 30 years, both citizens and businesses will move fairly often to whatever is the newest place that offer the best standard of living.

THIS is when the US could fail. If it's debt and such isn't in check in 30 years, I don't see how it will compete.

 

[NsXMas]

Strange turns this thread has taken.

People are panicking because of the bad economic news.

Let's take some perspective here. In the 30's the depression was much worse than the current economic situation. The quality of living is so much better now than back then.

Let's not all take a group suicide jump outside that window just because the press is producing one negative article after another.

There are many many great places to live, within and outside the US.

At the end of the day, where you grew up has strong bonds that are hard to leave.

I have great friends and also family in the US. No matter how bad the news it gets here, I can never just pick up and leave.

I also have good friends outside the US that I've met during studying abroad, and business trips outside the US. I enjoy those friendships also.

Those who think the answer is just "pick up and leave" will most likely find some other unexpected problems that they've never considered before.

So bottom line if you want to leave just leave. Don't think it's as easy as it seems though.

 

[queenlives]

interesting, if provocatively worded, thread title.

i love the USA and i don't disagree with the idea of living abroad from time to time, even for extended periods. i think exposure to other cultures on a global basis is a good thing for all.

my perspective is that history is full of armchair / drive-by patriots who stay in a country - any country - when the times are good but leave when things get challenging or difficult.

for those who choose (or are whining about it) to leave permanently, i think it's best for all concerned if you do it sooner rather than later and i do hope you'll have the decency to formally renounce your US citizenship at that time.

 

[MCM]

Agree.
Freedom isn't free.
Tens of thousands have died so you can leave any time you like.
So, just do it. & Keep us posted.
The economy would not be in the state its in if we were not the worlds police.
So, I say screw 'em. Let someone else foot the bill for a while.
Maybe Canada could step up.................:smile:
My mothers family moved to Calif. from Ca. in 1955.
My grandfather was born on the 4th of July and it was his dream to live in the U.S.
No one has ever mentioned the need to move back...........
Became citizens & paid tax's.
Quite different from today's immigrants........
Another part of today's problems......
Again, If this is the worst you think things can get open a History book.

 

[Commander]

WOW!!! Definitely an interesting thought - the "xpat ideology," as you describe being discussed here is the same thing that businesses do in regards to investing and making money. Point in case, everyone wants to do business with the USA because we have money and they can produce things cheaper which is also why a lot of the large US companies have shifted productions overseas. I run my finances like a business, maximum returns on investments to obtain more with my purchasing power which results in a higher standard of living and longer term stability based on resource accumulation. There is nothing anti-American about it, it's common sense.

Lastly, the primary reason we have the largest middle class income on Earth is because generally both couples in a relationship work. This didn't used to be many years ago, it's pretty much required for most now. When you combine both incomes your doing well, when you take a look at an average single persons income and compare it to the real cost of living it is generally not within the medium average based on your location. We just work longer and harder and have no time to raise our own kids, we hire people for that now...... I could go on forever but will digress....

Everything is an opinion of course, this is mine...

I love the xpat idealogy,succeed in america and get out with as much as you can,to avoid what you think are high taxes Start over why don't you,but in whatever country you wanted to end up in and see how much wealth you have acumulated:wink: Putzes:tongue: There is a reason we have the largest "middle class" on earth,and the American dream does exist!Try being born into humble beginnings in all those places where your acumulated american dollars go so far and lets see how you do in the 2nd-3rd world reality of the have lots and the dirt poor:frown: Ski man you are the president of the Hypocrates fan club:tongue:

 

[MCM]

You bring up a good point, define middle class on a global level?
Not sure its really the same..............

 

[steveny]

That brings up an interesting point.

I think the majority of the white collar jobs in the US will be 100% mobile in 15 years. When this happens I think a lot more people will move around, AS WILL businesses. Why have your corporate office in New York when your employees are all over the world?

I see in 30 years, both citizens and businesses will move fairly often to whatever is the newest place that offer the best standard of living.

THIS is when the US could fail. If it's debt and such isn't in check in 30 years, I don't see how it will compete.

Upstate NY has just about the worst economy of any state in the US I have visited. The taxes here are incredible high. As a result a lot of companies have done exactly as you say, they have either moved to another state or moved over seas. I would say at least 40% of the people are on public assistance. Sometimes I feel as if I am in the movie night of the living dead and I am the person trying to escape being killed buy the zombies.


You guys in other parts of the country really don't know how good you have it. Granted every area has it's ups and downs. My theory is the grass is only greener where you tend to the grass, mow it, fertilize it, water it, etc. You can't just move somewhere and have things be better. Happiness is 20% environment and 50% state of mind, 30% cash in the bank. I have a friend who has moved several times in his life and he is less happier with every move. I have stayed put and I am happy with most everything except the weather in NY. The biggest part of staying happy is being able to accept the things you can't change without more effort then the effort it takes to accept it the way it is.

 

[LJSB]

When either of the front running Democrats win the Presidency.:biggrin:

Don't think I'll have to pack anytime soon. :tongue:

 

[docjohn]

You need the local government to offer KOZ (tax free) comercial zones to help attract/keep businesses Our NE Pa small cities are starting to come back by atracting new companies with these breaks.The pressence of local Colleges also helps.:wink:

 

[Red]

There is a reason we have the largest "middle class" on earth,and the American dream does exist!

Actually, India has the largest Middle Class on earth - they have 350 Million people that are classified as Middle Class - I understand though - when you call people who win a National sports series "World Champions" you you can make mistakes like this :wink: :biggrin:

You bring up a good point, define middle class on a global level?
Not sure its really the same..............

Thats the problem - too much American Cool Aid drinking - not enough real global knowledge.

When either of the front running Democrats win the Presidency.:biggrin:

Don't think I'll have to pack anytime soon. :tongue:

I hope their "moderate" talk is only to get elected and they actually plan on reversing the Bush Health Care Prescription Drug Fiasco that will bankrupt America - sadly, its hard to take things away - much easier to give things when you don't have to pay for them in your Presidency.:frown:

 

[MCM]

OK, your right.
You win.
No use trying to prove my point.........

 

[Synthesis]

If you don't like America then you can just.....get out

why can't we work on fixing things?
i see that a lot of people just accept what's given to them, thinking "that's how it is...."
well, then, you go against what this country was started on.... and you can just.... get out.

people who don't question are the ones who get taken advantage of. unfortunately, there are so many of them, that those who do question are considered to be out of order and can't get much done. after all, it's OUR duty to make changes.... especially when our "representatives" are doing an absolutely terrible job.

those of us who are ready to leave this place are disappointed in the way things are right now, what this country has become (from what good standing we actually had before), and you should be too. if you're not.... please educate yourself before you engage in another ignorant cheer for the status quo.

btw, if you think no other country is "free", you're sadly mistaken. last i checked, of the free countries, we have the fewest average vacation days at our jobs (10 days starting, vs. 25 in most other places). i don't know about you, but i feel free when i'm on vacation.... not at work :tongue:

 

[docjohn]

Red you better watch it,your inflamatory rhetoric may just reduce the number of attendees of EST fest:tongue: BTW If your country was not sharing our border you would have been overrun long ago! Sissies.:biggrin:

 

[Ryanmcd2]

I work with a few people from Canada, You guys get screwed on health care and taxes. I can see a doc in 3 hours from when I am sick you have to wait weeks most of the time. I can spend the money and get good care if I need too. Also he said he goes to the US for care because it's so slow in Canada. Ever place has problem but things we dont have or that are new are always better. I wish everyone that did not like the US would leave, maybe that will help with this traffic I will buy anyone a 1 way ticket.