Why Stock Is Best

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20 March 2001
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Atlanta, GA, USA
I have often preached the benefits of not modifying my NSX. Why? Not because I think Honda's engineers are perfect or incapable of improvement; but rather because I believe the depth of engineering and thought processes used in modern vehicles cannot be duplicated by most aftermarket companies. The piece below about ABS braking systems is an excellent example of why I don't want to modify (attempt to re-engineer) any part of my NSX. This is reprinted from a StopTech white paper I found on the King Motorsports website. Please read the caveat at the end before flaming the writer.

The ABS control system functions in following basic manner:

1) "evaluate" the driver's requests
2) "measure" what the vehicle is doing
3) "calculate" any difference, or error, between the two
4) "interact" in an attempt to make #2 equal #1

ABS Control In Super-Slow-Mo

In order to best explain how the ABS "depends" on the stock braking system, let's have a look at a typical ABS event at the micro level - from the processing algorithm's perspective.

Say you are driving down the highway at 75 MPH when all of a sudden the truck in front of you spills its load of spring water across all three lanes of traffic. Now, this alone would not be so bad except the water is sealed in 55-gallon drums - one of which would certainly make a mess of your car's front fascia. Time to take evasive action.

Being the trained high-speed individual that you are, you immediately lift off the gas, push in the clutch and simultaneously nail the brake pedal...but in the heat of the moment you hit it a little too hard.

Meanwhile, the ABS is hanging back watching the world go by, seeing a constant stream of 75 MPH signals from its four wheel speed sensors. Let's call this "observation mode." Upon your application of the brake, however, the ABS snaps to attention, its antenna up, ready for action. You have just hit the brake pedal after all, and who know what's coming next.

After 50 milliseconds (it's actually much faster than that - 7 to 10 milliseconds is typical - but it makes the math easier) the ABS takes another snapshot of the wheel speed information in an attempt to figure out what's going on. This time the wheel speed sensors are all reporting a speed of 74 MPH. Doing a quick calculation the ABS determines that in order to have slowed 1 MPH in a 50ms period the wheels must be decelerating at a rate of 0.91g's. Because you are driving a sports car, the engineer who calibrated the system 'taught' the ABS that your car is capable of decelerating at this rate, so the ABS continues to hang back and watch the event from the spectator's booth. No problem so far.

The next 50ms, however, are a little more interesting. This time around the wheels are reporting 72.5 MPH. Now, it may not seem like a big jump, but to slow 1.5 MPH in a 50ms window equates to a deceleration of 1.36g's. Not alarming, but the ABS 'knows' that based on this deceleration level the wheels are probably beginning to slip a little more than they should - after all, your car is probably not decelerating at quite 1.36g's - and any error between the two indicates slip.

ABS is now in "ready mode." It's probably too soon to jump in, as the wheels might spin back up on their own in the next 50ms loop, but things are definitely looking bad!

As the first barrels of water bounce left and right, missing your car by inches, you stay on the brake pedal but push even harder. This time around the left front wheel speed sensor is registering 68 MPH - a 4.5 MPH drop in the last 50ms, or a deceleration level of 4.1g's. Doing the math the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot possibly be decelerating at 4.1g's. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the 'real' vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH - a 3.5 MPH error.

So, based on a wheel deceleration of 4.1g's, a slip level of 5% and a couple other factors not listed here, the ABS jumps in and enters "isolation mode." (Note that the wheels are nowhere near "wheel lock" - the 100% slip point.) The first thing the ABS does is shut off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper isolating the driver from applying more pressure - after all, it was the driver that got us into this mess in the first place.

Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," releasing the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to reaccelerate back up to the vehicle's actual speed - 71.5 MPH in this case. Since the ABS knows how quickly the wheel is decelerating (4.1g), how fast the car is actually going (71.5 MPH), and the pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/rotor assembly (we'll come back to this one in just a second), it can precisely calculate how long to open its release valve to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration (or thereabouts).

Let's say that calculated time turned out to be 10 milliseconds (this again makes the math easier later on). Valve opens, pressure is released, and 10ms later it closes, leaving just the right amount of pressure in the caliper so that the wheel spins back up to exactly 71.5 MPH, but continues to decelerate at 1.0g. Everything is going as planned.

Time to close the loop and enter "increase mode." Once the ABS sees that the left front wheel has returned to near the 'real' vehicle speed, it slowly reapplies pressure from the master cylinder to make sure that maximum sustainable brake force is being utilized. To this end, the ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve, slowly building pressure at the left front caliper until once again the left front wheel begins to slip. It performs this calculation based on how quickly the wheel is re-accelerating, how fast the car is actually going, and the pressure-torque characteristics of the caliper/pad/rotor assembly.

In our hypothetical world the ABS calculated that four pulses of 5ms each were necessary to build the wheel pressure back up to the point that the wheel began to slip again, returning to "isolation mode."

The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal or until the car has come to a stop. Hopefully this did not include punting a water barrel or two along the way as the ABS kept all four wheel slips in the 5%-10% range, allowing you to turn and swerve as the drums bounced out of your path. Happy car, happy driver.

The Impact Of "Big Brakes"

Let's now take the exact same scenario, but add a twist: you are returning home from having that long-sought-after big brake kit installed. You know, the one that required new wheels to clear the 8-piston calipers and 16" rotors. Driving around the parking lot you couldn't believe the improvement in pedal feel and initial bite they displayed. These things must really throw a boat anchor behind the car at high speeds, right? Well, let's see.

You once again find yourself behind the water truck at 75 MPH. Barrels fly and you again lay on the brakes, but with the increased confidence of your new hardware to slow you down in time. Plus, you now know how the ABS works, so you lay into the pedal, confident that you will have both deceleration and steerability. It couldn't get any better.

Like scenario 1, after the initial 50, 100, and 150 milliseconds the ABS takes snapshots of the wheel speed information and registers 0.91g's, 1.36g's, and 4.1g's on the left front wheel. Again the ABS quickly comes to the conclusion that, unlike the left front wheel at this moment, the car cannot be decelerating at 4.1g's. Best case is that the car was decelerating at 1.0g (or thereabouts) over the last 50ms, so the 'real' vehicle speed is still somewhere around 71.5 MPH, even though the left front wheel speed is reading 68 MPH - a 3.5 MPH error. So far, so good - just like last time.

Here's where things start to get interesting, though. ABS enters "isolation mode" and shuts off the hydraulic line from the master cylinder to the left front caliper, isolating the driver from applying more pressure. Next, the ABS starts work in "decrease mode," and once again calculates that 10ms are required to the excess pressure from the left front caliper in order to allow the left front wheel to reaccelerate back up to the vehicle's actual speed - 71.5 MPH in this case. Unfortunately, this calculation was based on the stock vehicle's pressure-torque characteristics of the left front caliper/pad/rotor assembly. Let's talk about this briefly while the barrels roll in closer.

Pressure-Torque And Pressure-Volume Relationships

When a braking system is designed and installed, the components are chosen to provide a certain deceleration level for a certain amount of force applied by the driver to the brake pedal. While the overall relationship is critical, there are many ways to achieve the same end…but fundamentally the parts are chosen to work together as a system.

One of the most important relationships for the ABS engineer is the pressure-torque (P-T) relationship of the caliper/pad/rotor assembly. In so many words, for a given brake fluid pressure, X, the caliper/pad/rotor assembly will build up a certain amount of torque, Y. For the sake of argument, let's assume that adding 100 PSI of brake pressure to the stock caliper in our example vehicle generates 100 ft-lb. of torque.

Another important relationship is the pressure-volume (P-V) characteristic of the system. This relationship defines the swelling or expansion of the brake system for a given increase in pressure. Let's also say that our stock vehicle brake system 'swells' 1cc for every 100 PSI.

Back To The Barrels

So, back to our example - the ABS has just calculated that a 10ms pressure reduction pulse was necessary to vent that extra pressure, leaving just enough pressure in the caliper to maintain 1.0g of deceleration....but the new system with its decreased P-V characteristics releases twice as much pressure as the stock system in the same 10ms window (the equivalent of a 20ms pulse with the stock system). Of course, the increased P-T characteristics (bigger rotor! bigger pistons!) don't help either, as now three to four times as much torque has been removed from the wheel as with the stock system, leaving only enough torque to decelerate the wheel at, say, 0.3g. In ABS land this is known as a 'decel hole' and feels just like you momentarily took your foot off the brake pedal.

Now, given that huge pressure decrease, the ABS quickly enters "increase mode," trying to correct and build the pressure back up near the vehicle's maximum sustainable brake force. This takes time and time equals increased stopping distance.

The ABS calculates precisely how long to pulse open the isolation valve and determines that four pulses of 5ms each are necessary, just like before. Because of the new P-T and P-V characteristics however, after only two pulses the wheel is again being forced into slip, leaving the ABS scratching its head and wondering what's going on. Not expecting wheel slip so soon, the ABS quickly releases pressure in an attempt to recover, but the damage has already been done.

The cycle is repeated on all four wheels simultaneously until either the driver gets out of the brake pedal, or until the car has come to a stop…but this time the ABS is always one step behind. In some cases the ABS is robust to modest changes in the base brake system, but in extreme cases there can be a significant negative impact to the vehicle's steerability (increased front wheel slip due to poor control) and a measurable increase in stopping distance (multiple 'make up' decrease pulses).

So, your chances of stopping in time or swerving to avoid one of the bouncing barrels have been decreased. In this game, inches count and you need every one.

Are You Telling Me That Big Brakes Are A Bad Idea?

Will all big brake upgrades wreak havoc on the chassis control systems found on your favorite ride? Not necessarily. In fact, if designed and chosen properly, these upgrades can make the most of these control technologies while providing all of the cooling and thermal robustness advantages these kits have to offer.

The "secret" to brake system compatibility is that there is no secret - it just requires fundamental engineering expertise and design know-how. In fact, there are kits available today which have P-T characteristics which more than double the output (P==>2T) of the stock systems they replace - "200% More Stopping Power" must be better than stock, right?

CAVEAT - This is not a condemnation of any aftermarket supplier or part. It is an example of the complex engineering that goes into modern cars and the reason I don't want to alter these systems in an effort to 'improve' them over OEM levels.
 
A lot of interesting theory, but the fact is that the ABS on my NSX works fine with 13" Brembo/Comptech brakes all around. It maintains steerability and strong deceleration. I usually leave ABS on at the track and have gotten into it plenty of times.

Certainly there is a lot of engineering in any production car that is unlikely to be matched in the aftermarket. But:

1. Any car is a rolling set of engineered compromises. Some people like to adjust that set of blanket compromises so a car better suites their individual wants/needs.

2. Some of the engineering itself leaves a bit to be desired. Example: The design on the original $600/each power window regulators... an engineering deficiency solved with a $10 part from Dali Racing.
 
The window regulator is a "Prime" example of engineering adaptation. The original CAD model missed the strain on the bracket over a function of time/and/or/repetition.

The regulator was improved once the problem was found.

It is near impossible to weed out every problem in a system as advanced and complex as an automobile (even with the aid of the CRAY in 1990 or today's clustered Scomps); Further; Bose could not get it right in a static environment.

Well engineered AM parts can bring about improvements; however, the products need to be put through the same paces as the window regulator to weed out their weakness. The BBSC is an example (Sorry Mark) of a talented engineer creating a product hat needs to be debugged.
 
several other examples -- but be mindful of the tradeoffs

nsxparts.com said:
The window regulator is a "Prime" example of engineering adaptation.
...
Well engineered AM parts can bring about improvements; however, the products need to be put through the same paces as the window regulator to weed out their weakness.
One should also be aware of the tradeoffs/compromises made in selecting such changes. While the factory may have come close to a "well-balanced, livable compromises" package as was possible in 1989, some changes MAY be worth it if they:
a) introduce improvements (handling, performance, weight loss, ease of maintenance, etc);
b) the tradeoffs (cost, increased complexity, dealer serviceability, warranty, etc) are acceptable to the owner/driver, and his/her usage patterns (street vs track, dry vs wet, mileage, etc)

An example that comes to mind is brake pad formulations... even with the OE rotor/caliper setup, there can be a number of "great" aftermarket options, depending on factors like pad life, braking power (friction coefficient), fade resistance, dusting (and corrosive properties thereof), etc.... whereas for general street/aggressive street use, stock is probably fine.

##################

Related to the big-brake-kit discussion above, which is a good one (thanks Gary!), a more common "issue" than ABS control issues at the limit is the front/rear biasing that sometimes can cause handling aberrations under hard braking. The better kits have factored these into the design, some by providing ways to adjust as necessary (i.e., proportioning valves) to suit driving style, pad formulation, relative F/R brake force, and other factors.
 
I agree with many of the statements of not having the same amount or quality of engineering in the AM parts as with the original Honda parts.

That said the NSX was built with an extreme balance between comfort, performance, and quality. I - like many other enthusiasts am willing to trade a small amount of comfort and quality for performance.

That all said - your example is overly simplistic in some ways. It seems to imply if I was going up (or down) an extreme grade (lets say a mountain road) where temperature, the grade, and even elevation now become meaningful variables in how the ABS functions that either the ABS can't learn quick enough in these instances (which I doubt) or accounts for these variables (which I also doubt). I believe based on real world encounters with brake modifications and the ABS system - that even on my 13 year old NSX the ABS system is more then capable of taking advantage of brake modifications without extending brake times significantly. I have seen the stock system fade terribly and the stock rotors crack at the track.

I do know that some of the kits really need a different master cylinder to push those extra pistons against the bigger rotor to stop the bigger and heavier wheels - but that is a discussion for another day.
 
stock is a general consumer produce promising/giving a certain standard, optional extras tailor to individuality within the standard context/concept. allowable changes that arent detrimental to the base product.

aftermarket caters to specific taste regarding needs not supplied by the afore-mentioned or not available at the time of production. this maybe due to cost/technology constraints etc

granted a lot of mods are abused, but then it really is up to the person to thoroughly research their intended purchase and the effect it will have on the rest of the package. depends on what mods where talking about eh? who ordered the cup holder here on prime? hands up!

stock tape player and bose stereo system though, in the bin with you! everything eventually needs upgrades, praise the pacemaker!

mod on.......................:)

oh honda agrees with me, facelifts anyone :p
 
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I couldn't agree more - stock is best! I have never and would never try to "Frankenstein" the incredible technology packaged and sold to us as the NSX.

You'll never see me adding anything like intake and exhaust, N2O, clutch, suspension, brakes, wheels, tires, seats, belts, steering wheel, ECU, oil cooler, injectors, gears, or aero mods. I wouldn't even think of it!

HooRah for factory engineering!

-ed
www.nsxbuilder.com
 
Stock is not best, because best for one person is not the same as best for another. For some, stock may be best, but it can't be an absolute for all, as that is an impossibility.

If the ABS is so great and and any modifications to the brakes are a detriment, why was I able to lock up all 4 stock brakes and spin out of control at somewhere between 70 & 80 mph on dry pavement.

Why, because ABS is not a perfect system. I've got the repair bill and the memory of the skid marks to prove it. Fortunately, weather & time has removed the skid marks so I don't have a visual daily reminder on my way to work of the mistake I made driving too fast through an S-curve.

Since then, I have modified my car and it feels more secure on the road than before I modified it. I have no problems with those that want to keep their car stock, but realize, there is no absolute perfection for all, and there are many compromises made by the engineers of Honda when they developed the NSX.

For some people, stock is fine. For others, better handling at the expense of smoothness/comfort is a satisfactory trade off. Some feel increasing HP at the expense of longterm reliability is an acceptable trade off ( and don't try telling me that anyones's aftermarket engine mods don't degrade reliability, if you increase the engine's performance by X% and make use of that additional horsepower, it is impossible for that not to increase the wear & tear on the engine). Some people go to the exteme of stripping out sound insulation and other creature comforts to lighten the load for a predominantly race application.

Bottom line, stock is best, only if it is what is best for you.
 
nsxtasy said:
I haven't. Except when the pads have not yet been broken in - and that's true with virtually all brake pads.



I haven't.

Try Comptech Brembo... also I use Carbotech Panter+ and they don't fade even after 25 minutes of track abuse with stock rotors. I still desire a larger floating hat rotor kit such as AP though. Brakes are definitely one of the OE NSX's biggest weaknesses.
 
Here is Honda's answer to "stock is best" after the original "perfect" release:

Type S
Type S Zero
Type R

1995 NSX-T
1997 NSX 3.2
1999 NSX Z
2002 Front/Rear upgrades w/Wheel
2002 Type R
 
matteni said:
Here is Honda's answer to "stock is best" after the original "perfect" release:

Type S
Type S Zero
Type R

So Honda sells four different versions of the STOCK NSX in Japan.

Heck, for that matter, they have been selling different versions of the STOCK NSX here, too:

'02-03 six-speed NSX-T
'02-03 auto NSX-T
'97-01 six-speed NSX-T
'97-01 auto NSX-T
'97-01 six-speed NSX Coupe
'99 six-speed Zanardi NSX
'97-01 auto NSX Coupe

etc.

And they are ALL stock.
 
kenjiMR said:
Try Comptech Brembo...

Huh?

kenjiMR said:
also I use Carbotech Panter+ and they don't fade even after 25 minutes of track abuse with stock rotors.

And neither do the stock pads.

The stock pads don't fade once they're broken in, and the Carbotech Panther Plus pads don't fade once they're broken in, and the Comptech Brembo pads don't fade once they're broken in.

The stock pads will fade when you take them out on the track for the first time, and the Carbotech Panther Plus pads will fade when you take them out on the track for the first time, and the Comptech Brembo pads will fade when you take them out on the track for the first time. "Green pad syndrome".

Maybe you didn't read my post carefully, because it sounds like you're responding to something I never said.

kenjiMR said:
Brakes are definitely one of the OE NSX's biggest weaknesses.

I strongly disagree. I believe that the stock brakes are very, very good, much better than some people give them credit for. You can take an NSX with stock brakes out on the track and do just fine with it - even more so with the '97+ stock brakes.

Not that they can't be bigger and better - which is true about other aspects of the car as well. But the stock brakes are far better than some people claim.
 
Nsxtasy...I have to disagree.
For those of us track junkies out here the stock NSX brakes just don't cut it.

I personally have cracked several OEM rotors at the racetrack using both OEM non-OEM pads.

I've literally melted OEM NSX pads to the point where they were leaving grey streaks of melted pad material on the rotor itself. These were bedded in properly, (which is CRITICAL to pad longevity and performance).

I've run MOTUL brake fluid on the stock system and generated enough heat that it boiled in 1 track session (15 minutes).

This is all on the OEM Bridgestone Potenza RE010 tire. If I had run on tires like the Toyo RA1's or a like tire, the brake overheaating would have become even more severe.

The stock NSX brake system is *not* enough. Period.
(At least for me)
 
Well I've just got to jump in here now.

If you take the proper care in warming up the stock brakes, they are fade free and bulletproof no matter how long you run. I currently run stock rotors and calipers with Dali pads, Castrol SRF fluid, stainless lines, no splash guards and Dali air deflectors.

High temp fluid helps, but if you over brake and "shock" the brake rotors and pads of ANY manufacture, they will expand non-uniformly, laminate, melt (stock pads) but they won't stop your car they way you would like.

During my warm up lap, I drag the brakes lightly (just so you can feel it and have to add a touch of gas to maintain speed) for 10-15 seconds at a time, a few times in a row. This lets everything heat up uniformly and slowly (compared to just bombing them late in every corner).

After your session, cooling the brakes is just as important. The cool down lap (or track exit in most cases) is not long enough to allow the rotors and pads to cool fully or evenly before the next round - so the problem just gets worse. I normally drive around the pits or go out on the roads around the track for a mile or two without using the brakes at all to do the job right. Its amazing how well this works.

I gave this info to a few stock brake equipped drivers at NSXPO and they all told me it worked great, not even like the same car.

I have run a lot of hard laps, and my brakes have never been anything but good. I did over brake in the first corner at Road America (before warming them up) and got some rotor chatter, but they still worked fine with no fade.


Everyone has a different driving style. Some late-braking pedal-mashers will always have "inadequate" brakes. I for one believe that doing something correctly and doing it the way you think it should work are two different things.

-ed
www.nsxbuilder.com
 
Edo said:
Nsxtasy...I have to disagree.

Then we'll have to disagree - on a LOT of points. My own experience is almost the total opposite of yours. And I'm not known for being either slow or easy on the equipment.

Edo said:
I personally have cracked several OEM rotors at the racetrack using both OEM non-OEM pads.

I have never cracked the OEM rotors at the racetrack. However, I personally have cracked several non-OEM rotors at the racetrack using both OEM and non-OEM pads.

Edo said:
I've literally melted OEM NSX pads to the point where they were leaving grey streaks of melted pad material on the rotor itself. These were bedded in properly, (which is CRITICAL to pad longevity and performance).

I have never "melted" pad material an any of the roughly ten different kinds of brake pad I have used, and bedded in properly. Pad material can build up deposits on rotor surfaces, particularly if they are not bedded in properly, but you are mistaken if you think that pads "melt" onto the rotors. You might want to check out this web page from Stoptech's website to learn some of the dynamics of brake pad performance when heated on a racetrack.

Edo said:
I've run MOTUL brake fluid on the stock system and generated enough heat that it boiled in 1 track session (15 minutes).

I've run Motul brake fluid on the stock system for almost all of the 8,469 actual track miles I've put on my NSX, and I have never boiled the brake fluid.

Edo said:
This is all on the OEM Bridgestone Potenza RE010 tire. If I had run on tires like the Toyo RA1's or a like tire, the brake overheaating would have become even more severe.

I've run the last 1,000 actual track miles on my NSX using the Yokohama A032R track tire, which I would call a "like tire", and I have never boiled my brake fluid using those tires, either.

Edo said:
The stock NSX brake system is *not* enough. Period.
(At least for me)

Then it's quite possible that no car's brake system is enough - for you and the way you are using your car on the track.

I consider myself one of the more severe cases in terms of usage, and the stock NSX brake system is very, very good, even for me.

I am not claiming that the NSX brake system is immune to problems from heat at the race track. Yes, you can run into problems with pad deposits on the rotors. Yes, you can run into problems with rotors eventually developing cracks. However, these are problems that can arise with any brake system. In fact, I have discussed brake problems with some of my NSX buddies who have put big brake kits on their NSXs for track use, and many of them run into the exact same problems with the aftermarket systems as with the stock brakes.

Like Ed, I have come to the conclusion that the stock brakes are perfectly capable for track use, and are similar in performance to many of the aftermarket systems used by some who disagree. Given that your experience is so drastically different from mine using very similar setups, Edo, I can only conclude that the causes of the problems you have had lie not with the equipment, but with the techniques of the driver.
 
A few people have experienced catastrophic failure of OEM rotors at the track where the friction surface separated from the center bolt section (i.e. it became a 2-piece rotor). So they do fail occasionally. Just because one person hasn't experienced something doesn't mean nobody else has. Heck probably every rotor in the world has failed at some point. They are under enormous stress!

If OEM brakes are good enough for some people, that is great. Although I notice the guys saying OEM is good are not actually running a full "from the factory" brake setup! Added cooling ducts, air deflectors, removed spash guards, different pads, different fluid, etc.... So obviously the factory setup (aka "stock," which is the subject of this thread) was really not good enough for you either.

If some people feel a need to change out calipers or rotors, the fact that other people are happy with OEM (or "mostly OEM" or "OEM rotors and calipers with several other components modified or added/removed") doesn't change that. Even if each of us could ultimtely be happy with OEM calipers and rotors and a bunch of tinkering, some people prefer to upgrade something one time and be done with it instead of tinkering with it again and again to get it just right.

Further, when you add power and thus go faster, you need more brake to slow down. If someone modifies their car so it has 40% more power than stock, it only makes sense that the factory brakes may no longer be adequate. An extra 10 MPH at the end of a straight means a lot more work for the brakes.

Heck, RealTime felt the need to upgrade from the 13" Brembos up to 14" Alcon rotors! I cannot even comprehend exceeding the capability of the 13" Brembos, but obviously P.D. is driving on an entirely different level and felt the need for more.

So again, it boils down to what a specific person wants / needs.
 
I agree with you, Lud. There's a difference between saying that (a) you would like to upgrade from stock, versus (b) something from the factory is inadequate (or "just doesn't cut it"). In almost all respects, the stock car is just fine for most people's needs. If you want to modify something on your car, go for it! Just remember that it helps to be aware of the pluses and minuses in doing so, and why your needs are different from those of the car's original designers.

This reminds me of the owners of the Viper and 911 Turbo and 360 Modena and Z06 who do performance modifications to their cars (and yes, plenty of them do). I'm sure many of those doing mods complain that their cars, when stock, are "underpowered". :rolleyes: It's the exact same thing - the fact remains that the cars are totally fine when stock, but any individual owner may wish to make changes to his taste.
 
Hmm...
experience is just experience. I have definitely cracked OEM rotors, and boiled MOTUL fluid...

It could be however, that the track I regularly run at (PIR) is very hard on brakes...or harder on brakes than yours are...

I did eventually switch to Brembo's and did not see any problems afterwards.

Also, I have read Stoptech's website and I am a firm believer in what they have to say...

In the end I still disagree that the stock brakes are "adequate" but as long as we can agree to disagree I suppose that is ok...
 
Edo said:
It could be however, that the track I regularly run at (PIR) is very hard on brakes...or harder on brakes than yours are...

I run on a variety of tracks (20 total so far). Some (GingerMan, Putnam Park, Grattan) are fairly easy on brakes. Some (Mid-Ohio, Road America, Road Atlanta) are hard on brakes due to sharp turns at the end of long straights. Some (Blackhawk Farms) are hard on brakes due to a lack of stretches where the brakes can cool down.

Edo said:
In the end I still disagree that the stock brakes are "adequate" but as long as we can agree to disagree I suppose that is ok...

Yup.
 
While I can see some of the mechanical "upgrades" people do on their cars to increase their perceptions of what performance is, I am not so forgiving on the changes owners make to the exterior.

I probably am in the minority on this, but I believe Honda got it right on the styling even down to the wheels (newer wheels that is, not fond of the older ones).

The spoilers, lips, teeth, side skirts, thongs, whatever... all seem to cheapen the look of the car... akin to the Civic owners who "trick out" their cars... and while I understand the Civic owners thoughts on trying to be different, the NSX is different in and of itself.

I have a great appreciation for simplicity as it pertains to aesthetics, ie I'll take a brunette in a simple black dress with a 2" semi-conserative heel over a bottle blonde with fake breasts in a skin tight revealing sequened disaster.

You don't see too many altered 360's out there... and along those lines, would you make changes to the Venus Demilo? Bigger breasts? Liposuction? ...Get the point?
 
IMO, Stock S-U-C-K-S. Modifications done in bad taste would make ANYONE say "Stock is Best". BUT mods done in good taste make people go "Holy Sh!t". I don't know how many modified cars I have seen that make me say to myself "I would rather have that car stock than how it looks". But then again, I have seen a few cars that have modifications that accentuate the look of the car, enhancing it. If you add fake boobies to Cindy Crawford within proportional reason, how can she NOT look even better, at least aesthetically? :eek:
 
Breasts and such...

Now kids, bigger doesn't always mean better... let's take saline ta ta's for example... they don't feel real or look real (though they do have that fish in plastic bag look to them when they move and ripple, so attractive). When I was a lowly resident a few years back... ok, 15 years ago...we put in silicone implants, and while still not nearly as good as what God (or whoever you believe in, if anyone or thing) intended, they moved like jello and for a while (before eventual hardness set in) felt pretty good too, much better than salt water in a bag anyway.

So, do I think larger breasts are nice? Just love them actually, nothing like a good pair of love pillows....however, as the creater (nature and not Honda in this case) intended... :D
 
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