When to Change Timing Belt and Water Pump

[mlambert890]

Your suggestion that Honda states artificially sooner intervals for services in order to gouge the consumer for an extra (in this case) 90K service every ~18-21 years is a ridiculous claim. Honda has a reliability reputation to protect and I highly doubt that they would risk blowing up an engine over an extra $1,500 every 20 years.

Was just food for thought. And how would it be every 18-21 years? As everyone points out, TB/WP is TIME *or* mileage. So sorry, but its every 7 years. Every single car they sell done every 7 years is a lot of cash.

You can "highly doubt" whatever you want. I dont work for Honda, nor do I work for a competitor, so I have no dog in this fight. I'm just saying that corporations often have a ton of motives influencing recommendations (including govt agency regulations, lawsuit avoidance, profit margin, MTBF, risk management, etc)

Your argument contradicts itself, btw. You're saying "I highly doubt they wold risk blowing up an engine..." right... thats why they WOULD potentially err WAY on the side of caution. Thats actually part of what I was saying.

Either way... I dont have strong opinions on this type of topic anyway. People are free to do whatever they want with their cars and, obviously, ignoring the stated intervals is never a good idea b/c it puts you on bad footing in warranty situations anyway.

My point about oil changes was only that its a similar topic over which there has been considerable debate on both sides. No need to write a masters thesis on it.

 

[mlambert890]

I simply can not undestand people putting off doing the TB/WP, just do it.

If it's time, do it, if it's PASSED the time, you should have done it yesterday, so do it NOW before it's too late.

Or, simply not start the car until you can afford it.

I completely agreed with this until both Shane at Autowave and John at Cerrito said to not do the TB yet on a 1999. So now Im just confused. Ill just do it next year anyway, but I find it odd that two of the most respected experts according to the forums would turn down money for no reason. I suppose if I had *insisted* that they do it they would have, but the recommendation was that it wasnt necessary.

 

[mlambert890]

This is correct but when the bearings fail the pulley loses it's ability to rotate and the TB will rip itself apart spinning on a seized pulley or rip the pulley right off the WP assy. and fall off. WP failure will cause TB failure 99% of the time.

Another point is that Shawn and John both indicated that the majority of TB failures they'd seen were WP failures and that if the WP hadnt failed, the TB wouldnt have failed at all.

So I would say that replacing the TB (a simple belt) and NOT replacing the pump (a clear wear and tear part) would be REALLY crazy. If anything, the OTHER way would almost make more sense (but since the labor is the same and a belt is just a belt, you obviously do both)

 

[NSXGMS]

Another point is that Shawn and John both indicated that the majority of TB failures they'd seen were WP failures and that if the WP hadnt failed, the TB wouldnt have failed at all.

So I would say that replacing the TB (a simple belt) and NOT replacing the pump (a clear wear and tear part) would be REALLY crazy. If anything, the OTHER way would almost make more sense (but since the labor is the same and a belt is just a belt, you obviously do both)

So, to be clear, Jon Martin and Shane @ Autowave told you not to replace the WP (which results in no additional $ for them BTW since the labor is the same) but then mentioned casually that they've seen several WPs fail before the TB did? This makes no sense at all.

I cannot believe that either Jon or Shane would tell anyone not to replace the WP during the 90K service. You must have misunderstood... The replacement of the WP has been SOP on 90K services since forever ago and it is hardly any additional effort for the mechanic to do it and they presumably make little or no profit on the part. There's absolutely no reason on earth whatsoever for any mechanic to dissuade a customer from doing it--especially Jon or Shane.

 

[drtruong]

I completely agreed with this until both Shane at Autowave and John at Cerrito said to not do the TB yet on a 1999. So now Im just confused. Ill just do it next year anyway, but I find it odd that two of the most respected experts according to the forums would turn down money for no reason. I suppose if I had *insisted* that they do it they would have, but the recommendation was that it wasnt necessary.

Let me clarify myself on this statement - Shane and John recommend not to change anything for a 10yr-old car that has less than 90K miles. If this is what I understood, then when is their recommendation to change them for the car that has less than 90K miles?

I have read numbers of threads like this in the past and the arguments of aging belt, integrity of the belt over years (not on mileage of the belt) and ect...But I have not seen or heard the belt is snapped if it is overdue by the time (not mileage) that manufacturer recommended.

If Shane and John state that most of the time that they see TB failure is caused by WP, then age of the TB is not the problem and WP failure is mainly by mileage due to wear and tear.

P.S. I DON'T MIND PAYING TO CHANGE THE TB/WP, BUT DO MIND WASTING PARTS ARE STILL GOOD. THE FOCUS OF THE POINT IS NOT THE MONEY BUT WASTING GOOD PARTS.

 

[NSXGMS]

Was just food for thought. And how would it be every 18-21 years? As everyone points out, TB/WP is TIME *or* mileage. So sorry, but its every 7 years. Every single car they sell done every 7 years is a lot of cash.

You can "highly doubt" whatever you want. I dont work for Honda, nor do I work for a competitor, so I have no dog in this fight. I'm just saying that corporations often have a ton of motives influencing recommendations (including govt agency regulations, lawsuit avoidance, profit margin, MTBF, risk management, etc)

Your argument contradicts itself, btw. You're saying "I highly doubt they wold risk blowing up an engine..." right... thats why they WOULD potentially err WAY on the side of caution. Thats actually part of what I was saying.

Either way... I dont have strong opinions on this type of topic anyway. People are free to do whatever they want with their cars and, obviously, ignoring the stated intervals is never a good idea b/c it puts you on bad footing in warranty situations anyway.

My point about oil changes was only that its a similar topic over which there has been considerable debate on both sides. No need to write a masters thesis on it.

If Honda understated the TB/WP service interval by, let's say, ~25%, that would allow them to squeeze in one extra TB/WP service for about every 3 performed. That's one extra service over the course of 270K miles/21 yrs. All for $1,500, $700 of which is parts which they don't make that much on.

I may have misread your post about pushing forward service intervals--I see that you're claiming it's a CYA issue which very well may be true but since TBs/WPs have failed--some before the intervals--it seems there's no reason to ignore Honda's recommendation at all.

Still, the argument for not replacing the WP during the 90K service is a weak one and I am really shocked that either Jon or Shane would disagree on this point in any way. Again, I truly believe there must have been a misunderstanding during those conversations. A 1999 is running with a 10-year old WP and WPs have failed at less than 7 years, I promise you. Higher mileage, yes, but they have failed.

 

[ediddynsx]

So, to be clear, Jon Martin and Shane @ Autowave told you not to replace the WP (which results in no additional $ for them BTW since the labor is the same) but then mentioned casually that they've seen several WPs fail before the TB did? This makes no sense at all.

I cannot believe that either Jon or Shane would tell anyone not to replace the WP during the 90K service. You must have misunderstood... The replacement of the WP has been SOP on 90K services since forever ago and it is hardly any additional effort for the mechanic to do it and they presumably make little or no profit on the part. There's absolutely no reason on earth whatsoever for any mechanic to dissuade a customer from doing it--especially Jon or Shane.

I don't think Jon or Shane said anything like that......

 

[sidwac]

Anyone out there who has asked for the return/inspection of the used TB after being changed? What were the findings? Also, can you get or is it advisable to obtain an after market TB? Only ask because 2009 TB technology has to have been improved over early-mid '90's technology, unless Acura has changed with the times. Appreciate the feedback. Regards....Andrew

p.s. my garage queened '96 has 24,000 miles on it. Looking to do the TB/WP and "other stuff while you are in there" later this year. I generally feel an owner should stick to the maintenance guidelines outlined by the manufacturer, but they are "recommended" guidelines. Am I worried "NO" just in my mind the right thing to do. Am I taking a risk "NO", well maybe a small one. Just my personal views.................

 

[Big_D]

Anyone out there who has asked for the return/inspection of the used TB after being changed? What were the findings? Also, can you get or is it advisable to obtain an after market TB? Only ask because 2009 TB technology has to have been improved over early-mid '90's technology, unless Acura has changed with the times. Appreciate the feedback. Regards....Andrew

p.s. my garage queened '96 has 24,000 miles on it. Looking to do the TB/WP and "other stuff while you are in there" later this year. I generally feel an owner should stick to the maintenance guidelines outlined by the manufacturer, but they are "recommended" guidelines. Am I worried "NO" just in my mind the right thing to do. Am I taking a risk "NO", well maybe a small one. Just my personal views.................

This is the only on I have heard of...

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1084305

Visually inspecting a belt will not help in determining its life. Remember this is supposed to be "Preventative Maintenence".

IMO you are taking a HUGE risk by driving on a belt that is older than 6 years. I do that on my toyota camry because if the belt breaks then the car just stops and results in no engine damage. If the TB breaks on the NSX your looking at a new engine. Good Luck

 

[sidwac]

Big_D, thanks for the feedback. I'm several hundred miles and a month or 2 away from getting the work done. I did find some additional interesting information on the TB/WP subject. Regards....Andrew

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124448&highlight=belt+tensioner

 

[Big_D]

Big_D, thanks for the feedback. I'm several hundred miles and a month or 2 away from getting the work done. I did find some additional interesting information on the TB/WP subject. Regards....Andrew

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124448&highlight=belt+tensioner

Your Welcome. More interesting to me is how some owners are willing to take a chance on a service that costs less than 15-20% of the price of what a used engine costs.

 

[Brylek]

When Audi decided to pay for maintnance within warranty period they first started changing oil every 3000 miles, later they changed it to 5000 miles, i believe, and at the end they ended up saying that 7000 miles will be ok. Technology did not change much, they still use the same oil so why go from 3000 miles to 7000 miles? The perfect answer is: they are paying for it. I'm wondering if honda would give us different numbers if the TB service was included in the price of the car for life.

 

[LJSB]

You should change your timing belt and water pump before they break.

You could wait until just 30 seconds before they actually break and you would still be fine. Personally I would not wait until it's just 10 seconds before they break, but that's me. The value lost in that extra 20 seconds is me just being extravagant. I want to pamper my baby. Goo Goo.

If you change your timing belt/water pump before they break you could list them in the "parts for Sale Section" here on Prime or auction them on E-Bay, pricing them accordingly to the time of service they still have left.

 

[Big_D]

You should change your timing belt and water pump before they break.

You could wait until just 30 seconds before they actually break and you would still be fine. Personally I would not wait until it's just 10 seconds before they break, but that's me. The value lost in that extra 20 seconds is me just being extravagant. I want to pamper my baby. Goo Goo.

If you change your timing belt/water pump before they break you could list them in the "parts for Sale Section" here on Prime or auction them on E-Bay, pricing them accordingly to the time of service they still have left.

LOL, I am waiting for that to happen.

FOR SALE
Gently used timing belt...was on the car when I bought it. Still looks new.:biggrin:

 

[RON98]

TB's don't SNAP because of time or usage. TBs are the toughest little monsters and next to impossible to break. What typically happens is the WP seals that leak. When the seal leaks, it allows coolant to enter into the bearing of the WP.

When that happens eventually the WP will seize up causing the belt which normally rolls over the WP to be now DRAGGED over the WP pulley.

Friction = heat = unhappy belt. The belts heat up, burn, melt, crisp up... whatever you want to call it but that is when the BELT snaps... snap is a bad word.. more like shredding.

What you are actually doing during a TB service is changing the WP. I think it should be called a WP service rather than a TB service. The TB gets taken off during the service and its a good time to replace it.

Also make SURE to change the timing belt tension pulley too. If that fails, you have the same scenario as the WP failure.

If I had a choice of driving the car to 250K miles by changing the WP every 80K and using the original belt... or changing the TB ever 3000 miles and using the original WP..... i would put my life savings on the 80K WP scenario coming out on top.

Lets call it the WP and timing belt tension pulley service from now on.

Oh and when a TB goes. The valves will kiss the pistons a million times before you have time to get that heart in your gut feeling.

If the head has integrated valve guilds cast into the head, often the end of the valve guide chip due to the bent valve, the head is garbage.

if lucky, at low speed, not much major damange. Belt valves. if at high speed, head and pistons. Also if the valves or guides chip and fall into the cylinder, you can count on rebuilding the block too.

Every owner to their own, the economy is bad, mechanics need customers to pay for their rent.

btw, i knew someone that had 250K on their honda integra..... original everything including brake pads and rotors.

 

[RON98]

So, to be clear, Jon Martin and Shane @ Autowave told you not to replace the WP (which results in no additional $ for them BTW since the labor is the same) but then mentioned casually that they've seen several WPs fail before the TB did? This makes no sense at all.

I cannot believe that either Jon or Shane would tell anyone not to replace the WP during the 90K service. You must have misunderstood... The replacement of the WP has been SOP on 90K services since forever ago and it is hardly any additional effort for the mechanic to do it and they presumably make little or no profit on the part. There's absolutely no reason on earth whatsoever for any mechanic to dissuade a customer from doing it--especially Jon or Shane.

times are hard, maybe they are looking for an engine rebuild to pay the rent.

j/k

the above is highly unlikely. skilled mechanics like the ones above would never make that recommendation.

 

[LJSB]

TB's don't SNAP because of time or usage.

 

[hofffam]

Anyone out there who has asked for the return/inspection of the used TB after being changed? What were the findings? Also, can you get or is it advisable to obtain an after market TB? Only ask because 2009 TB technology has to have been improved over early-mid '90's technology, unless Acura has changed with the times. Appreciate the feedback. Regards....Andrew

p.s. my garage queened '96 has 24,000 miles on it. Looking to do the TB/WP and "other stuff while you are in there" later this year. I generally feel an owner should stick to the maintenance guidelines outlined by the manufacturer, but they are "recommended" guidelines. Am I worried "NO" just in my mind the right thing to do. Am I taking a risk "NO", well maybe a small one. Just my personal views.................

I had the TB/WP changed on my 1997 late in 2007. The car had 31K miles on it. I have the old belt - it is hanging in my garage shed. It looks like it is nearly new. The rubber isn't brittle, the belt doesn't twist easily, the teeth are perfect, etc. I also had the tensioner pulley and drive belts changed. I don't regret changing it - because I know I don't need to worry about if for a long time. But I'm also confident that the belt itself is indeed a tough durable item.

 

[RON98]

ok too much of a generalization to get the point across.

as TL says, "always exception to the rule"

the ones that i have seen personally however where all due to reasons which sometimes might look like pure TB failure to the untrained eye. Typical ones include wp, tp, in proper install. miss aligned cam gear/crank, tb rubbing on stuff it was not suppose to such as tb cover, bolts falling off due to bad install and getting eaten by the TB.... um... what else... too much tension, too little tension....

none of them i have seen where because it was just too darn old.

ask Mr 250K miles. when i did TB, it was still mint.

im sure you have seen more cars than i have

 

[RON98]

I had the TB/WP changed on my 1997 late in 2007. The car had 31K miles on it. I have the old belt - it is hanging in my garage shed. It looks like it is nearly new. The rubber isn't brittle, the belt doesn't twist easily, the teeth are perfect, etc. I also had the tensioner pulley and drive belts changed. I don't regret changing it - because I know I don't need to worry about if for a long time. But I'm also confident that the belt itself is indeed a tough durable item.

same here. have lots of them laying around the garage. not sure why i collect them... maybe i should give them to the customer. anyways. all look mint. a couple of the older ones with 150k had some the writing on the belt smudged but besides that are in great condition.

I have seen leaks on the WP tho. Which is a sign its really time to change them.

 

[drtruong]

TB's don't SNAP because of time or usage. TBs are the toughest little monsters and next to impossible to break. What typically happens is the WP seals that leak. When the seal leaks, it allows coolant to enter into the bearing of the WP.

When that happens eventually the WP will seize up causing the belt which normally rolls over the WP to be now DRAGGED over the WP pulley.

Friction = heat = unhappy belt. The belts heat up, burn, melt, crisp up... whatever you want to call it but that is when the BELT snaps... snap is a bad word.. more like shredding.

What you are actually doing during a TB service is changing the WP. I think it should be called a WP service rather than a TB service. The TB gets taken off during the service and its a good time to replace it.

Also make SURE to change the timing belt tension pulley too. If that fails, you have the same scenario as the WP failure.

If I had a choice of driving the car to 250K miles by changing the WP every 80K and using the original belt... or changing the TB ever 3000 miles and using the original WP..... i would put my life savings on the 80K WP scenario coming out on top.

Lets call it the WP and timing belt tension pulley service from now on.

Oh and when a TB goes. The valves will kiss the pistons a million times before you have time to get that heart in your gut feeling.

If the head has integrated valve guilds cast into the head, often the end of the valve guide chip due to the bent valve, the head is garbage.

if lucky, at low speed, not much major damange. Belt valves. if at high speed, head and pistons. Also if the valves or guides chip and fall into the cylinder, you can count on rebuilding the block too.

Every owner to their own, the economy is bad, mechanics need customers to pay for their rent.

btw, i knew someone that had 250K on their honda integra..... original everything including brake pads and rotors.

Thank you for the information and it is very helpful information. I think this would clear everything arguments that have been debating for sometimes.

But I would like to make myself clear one more time - If the car has only less 50K miles and is 10years old car, there is no needs to do anything at this time because most of the wear and tear on the WP is caused by mileage not TIME. Am I correct?

 

[NA1VTEC]

My baby is in the shop right now getting the tb/wp changed along with tensioner, valve adjustment, and oil pan gasket replacement.

According to Shad, it appears to be the original belt although the cam seals look like they've been replaced. My car is 15 years old and has 139,xxx miles.

I figure it is cheap insurance for peace of mind in knowing you won't have to think twice about it for a long time.

Just my .02

 

[NSXGMS]

If the car has only less 50K miles and is 10years old car, there is no needs to do anything at this time because most of the wear and tear on the WP is caused by mileage not TIME. Am I correct?

That is a theory only, not fact. TBs and WPs have failed before 90K miles and older than 7 years. Replace them.

 

[NSXGMS]

btw, i knew someone that had 250K on their honda integra..... original everything including brake pads and rotors.

How can you be sure the brake pads and rotors were original? Maybe he bought them way back but installed them recently.

It is physically impossible for Integra brake pads (or any car's pads for that matter) to last 250K miles. Period. Not even the rear pads--

 

[99 rs]

This might not relate to the NSX as different timing belt materials might be involved.

I just changed the timing belt, tensioner and water pump on my 1995 civic with 350000 kilometers on it (not miles). I think RON98 hit the nail on the head here. I would have never changed my belt however my water pump started leaking slightly. I didn't want to get stranded so I changed everything ($88 for the timing belt, tensioner and water pump with a $7 core return....oh ya). The timing belt I pulled off was an original Honda belt and you could still see the writing on the face of it but I couldn't see a date or time stamp on it unfortunately. I'm not sure if anyone has ever changed the belt on this car but here is what the belt looked like. Note that I did not "break" the creases; this is what the belt was like naturally and EVERY single tooth was like this. As RON98 said if the water pump or tensioner seized up I have no doubt in my mind that teeth would get stripped off of the belt. I doubt the belt would even break. I tried to break the belt by holding it on the ground with my foot and pulling up towards my chest with two hands and nothing.