What's the target customer's profile for the new NSX?

obviously, no auto company wants to lose money, I always thought these types of cars were more marketing programs intending to showcase what the company could do than sales platforms focusing on either volume or high margin.



425(ish) at the crank. :)

I'd have to agree completely with your viewpoint on the LFA.

and I reckon had the NSX been bumped to 400-ish horsepower some where around the late 90's, the car's sales numbers would have increased a fairly significant amount...
 
I don't think Honda lost as much money on the NSX as Toyota did on the LFA. However, Toyota is a 200+ billion $$ company with 2.2 billion in Operating Income this year. Even if they recognized all the losses in the same year (maybe 100 to 200 million?), they'd still be profitable many times over with more than enough profits to not change their dividend ratio significantly. Although, obviously, no auto company wants to lose money, I always thought these types of cars were more marketing programs intending to showcase what the company could do than sales platforms focusing on either volume or high margin.

I agree, Toyota is regarded as rather untouchable as far as resources being and the losses probably were easily displaced by their massive production and sales. However, while I admire them, I am also wary of best-selling, larger companies simply because the balance of profits and virtue is questionable - and this is coming from someone who has owned many Toyotas. It's like Apple. You can't be the most profitable company in the world without screwing someone over... Someone has to pay for that high profit one way or another.

To get back to the point, I still have not met many people that know what the LFA is and if they don't know what it is, then how does that really help sell or market Lexus/Toyota? Now, I've met many people who know what the GTR is and many times are not the typical demographic for buying a GTR at all, but they probably could/may buy a Nissan/Infiniti.

So I personally think the LFA was a passion project gone wild considering the results. I wish they would take another stab at something similar, but smaller scale in the sense of cost and preferably mid-engine* :biggrin: :WishfulThinking:

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and I reckon had the NSX been bumped to 400-ish horsepower some where around the late 90's, the car's sales numbers would have increased a fairly significant amount...

See, I don't agree with the horsepower being the main sales point for the first gen NSX. There were dealer installed options of Comptech Supercharger kits that bumped the horsepower to 400ish. This retained factory warranty and such like a new car I believe. One would think there would have been a larger or even cult market for that type of NSX. How many do you see being sold in the used market now that had the dealer installed options? I believe someone did research on the matter and only a few dozens every sold that way. I think I've seen two in my almost 8 years of NSX ownership and perusing the classified/CL/AT online. Even rarer than Zanardi occurrences.

Also by the time 1995 rolled around (the only year to see a minor sales increase over the previous year for the NSX), the MSRP was already ballooned to $85K. The Viper from the same era was similarly priced and it made much more hp with the larger V10. It also struggled to sell like the NSX in the sense of barely knocking out a thousand units per year.

I think horsepower per dollar along with brand recognition would be the key.
 
See, I don't agree with the horsepower being the main sales point for the first gen NSX. There were dealer installed options of Comptech Supercharger kits that bumped the horsepower to 400ish. This retained factory warranty and such like a new car I believe. One would think there would have been a larger or even cult market for that type of NSX. How many do you see being sold in the used market now that had the dealer installed options? I believe someone did research on the matter and only a few dozens every sold that way. I think I've seen two in my almost 8 years of NSX ownership and perusing the classified/CL/AT online. Even rarer than Zanardi occurrences.

Also by the time 1995 rolled around (the only year to see a minor sales increase over the previous year for the NSX), the MSRP was already ballooned to $85K. The Viper from the same era was similarly priced and it made much more hp with the larger V10. It also struggled to sell like the NSX in the sense of barely knocking out a thousand units per year.

I think horsepower per dollar along with brand recognition would be the key.

the Viper was a cartoonish car that was pretty horrible in virtually every way. even owners of the Viper didn't like it a whole lot, it was a novelty that wore off very quickly.

there may have been an option to make the NSX a 400 horsepower car, but in my opinion it should have already been that way from the factory. if your competition is making that type of horsepower from the factory, then I reckon your car should too. and as you said, since the price had already ballooned to a higher level, so should the performance to match the other options in the class. no excuses...
 
That would mean a revival of the MR2 :)

Precisely :biggrin:

the Viper was a cartoonish car that was pretty horrible in virtually every way. even owners of the Viper didn't like it a whole lot, it was a novelty that wore off very quickly.

there may have been an option to make the NSX a 400 horsepower car, but in my opinion it should have already been that way from the factory. if your competition is making that type of horsepower from the factory, then I reckon your car should too. and as you said, since the price had already ballooned to a higher level, so should the performance to match the other options in the class. no excuses...

I agree with you wholeheartedly about Viper looks and price/value point. It looked like an Rx7 on steroids literally while the FD Rx7 looks like a buff Miata respectively haha. That's most likely why the Viper didn't sell that well even though it had some monstrous hp/torque and being a domestic vehicle in the US. You are only reinforcing my point tho that horsepower alone can't sell the car. Mustang and Corvette didn't make much power either from that era, nor did they look so good IMO, but they sold very well domestically in the US still. The biggest difference being price and brand establishment. Let's not forget though that the Viper and NSX were never meant to sell well like those cars.

Honda seems to be unleashed with their hp restraint this round. I think they've learn quite a bit from the last gen and are listening to criticism/critique. Honestly though, my excitement hinges largely on the short teaser that may or may not have enhanced sounds of something rather exotic from the exhaust note. It certainly does not sound like a typical Twin Turbo V6...
 
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The corvette is a tough sports car to compare to others in the good ol US of A .....It holds a special place because of its history/price point/2 seats/ect......we chuckle at the cliche of the stereotypical "vette" driver....but the car remains something that 50-70 yo males aspire to own.
 
It is indeed a FACT that high-end car sales - sales for expensive makes and models - declined the first half of the 1990's. Sales numbers are what they are, sales numbers, and thus carry no bias.
Again, do you have those figures? B/c they weren't in any of your posts.
I was able to find Mercedes-Benz annual sales in the U.S. as reported each January of the following year:

1989 - 74,851
1990 - 76,966
1991 - 58,087
1992 - 62,832
1993 - 53,446
1994 - 72,534

As you can see, these numbers confirm the statements quoted above. (BTW the one in the Christian Science Monitor was in a news story, not an editorial.)

To get a better idea of how the auto industry was going in the early part of the 1990's, here are some quotes from newspapers at that time, in stories summarizing annual sales at the end of each year.

Wall Street Journal, January 7, 1992: "Auto Makers Hobble into the New Year with Little Hope for a Robust Recovery"

WSJ said:
For the U.S. auto market, 1991 ended with much of the gloom and uncertainty that marked the year's infancy, giving little hope for a rapid recovery in 1992.

The year that opened with fears about the recession and rumblings of a military battle with Iraq ended with fears about the continuing recession and rumblings of a trade battle with Japan.

All of the pessimism depressed sales of cars and light trucks in 1991 to 12.3 million vehicles, an 11.5% decline from a lackluster 1990, and the worst performance since 1983, when the nation was shaking off the effects of the last recession.

Domestic cars sold at a seasonally adjusted annual pace of 7.1 million vehicles for the last 10 days of December. That was the highest level since early July, when auto makers hoped the economy was on the road to recovery, and well above the domestic sales pace of 5.9 million cars for the entire month. But the numbers weren't as good as they might look.

The sales rate typically jumps in late December, and the Federal Reserve Board's sharp cut in interest rates should have exaggerated the trend. But the sales rate remained well below that of the depressed year-ago period, and left few industry officials optimistic heading into the new year.

Last year "was a dismal year for the entire industry," Chrysler Corp. President Robert A. Lutz said yesterday. "I think 1992 will be a little better than 1991, but it's unlikely that 1992 will be a whole lot better."

Wall Street Journal, January 7, 1993: "Ford Taurus dethrones Honda Accord as top-selling car in U.S. during 1992"

WSJ said:
-- Overall U.S. car and truck sales rose 4% to 12.9 million vehicles in 1992 from 12.3 million a year earlier, the second-worst year for U.S. auto sales since 1983. Question Mark for 1993 The big question now is whether 1993 will mark the beginning of a sustained recovery after several false starts in recent months.

"Clearly there's more upside potential in 1993 than there was in 1992," said J. Michael Losh, group vice president in charge of GM's North American marketing operations. A recovering economy and declining consumer debt loads all point to a rebound in U.S. vehicle sales, he said.

However, GM and most other auto makers are maintaining conservative sales forecasts. GM sees 1993 sales rising to between 13.5 million and 14 million vehicles. Maryann Keller, auto analyst at Furman Selz Inc., said combined car and truck sales could reach 13.7 million.

If those predictions hold true, it will mean another far from robust year, particularly by the standards of the mid-1980s when sales averaged about 15 million vehicles a year. Among the uncertainties: a possible increase in gasoline taxes that could drive consumers away from the larger, more powerful vehicles they have favored in recent years.

Wall Street Journal, January 6, 1994: "Late-December vehicle sales pace declined"

WSJ said:
A total of 13.9 million vehicles were sold in 1993, up 8.3% from the 12.9 million vehicles sold a year earlier. Ford and Chrysler gained a bigger share of the U.S. vehicle market last year, while GM's share dropped.
Sales were up in 1994 and 1995, down again in 1996; see below.

it is also indeed a FACT that your statement that these were boom times for car sales was wrong
US auto sales, '80-'89 = 137.4 million

US auto sales, '90-'99 = 148.8 million
You edited my quote to change its meaning, and then argued against something it never said. Here's the original statement - with the bolded part that you omitted:

Thus it is also indeed a FACT that your statement that these were boom times for car sales was wrong, as applied to this part of the decade and this segment of the market.
The numbers you keep posting don't show the first part of the decade (as separated from the rest of the decade) or the high-end segment of the market (as separated from the rest of the auto market).

However, as you can see from these newspaper stories, even if you look at the auto market as a whole, the first few years of that decade were indeed bad times, described as "a dismal year" and "a far from robust year". Sales picked up a bit in 1995, then dropped by about 2 million in 1996. There were only two years in the 1990's - 1995 and 1999 - in which industry sales reached the 15 million mark that characterized the mid 1980's; the rest of the 1990's was considered a bad time in the auto industry. The auto industry finally once again reached sustained sales of the mid 1980's (i.e. multiple consecutive years of 15+ million) during the period 1999-2007, as you can see in this chart:

Model-Year-Sales-in-US.jpg


So it would be more accurate to say that the boom times were the mid 1980's and the early 2000's, and the bad times were the early 1990's and the period since 2008. If you could find one chart with annual sales from 1980 to the present, that would be even more obvious than it is on this one.

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The corvette is a tough sports car to compare to others in the good ol US of A .....It holds a special place because of its history/price point/2 seats/ect......we chuckle at the cliche of the stereotypical "vette" driver....but the car remains something that 50-70 yo males aspire to own.
I've got to hand it to the Corvette. In all its versions, it has had the best "bang for the buck" at or above its price point, year after year after year.
 
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I've always noticed and said that you need to be at least 50+ years old to own a Corvette and that there are two requirements.

1) you must at all times drive no less than 10 mph under the posted speed limit in all driving situations.

and

B) said middle aged and older men must try to pick up 18 year old girls whenever possible...
 
I was able to find Mercedes-Benz annual sales…

So do you have the total production numbers autos and segment composition?

US auto sales 50-59: 71.04 million
US auto sales 60-69: 99.78 million
US auto sales 70-79: 131.06 million
US auto sales 80-89: 137.43 million
US auto sales 90-99: 148.87 million
US auto sales 00-09: 161.73 million

Indeed, the 90's were "great times" for the auto industry as seen by the double digit increase from the previous decade. The 2000's even better. But to prove a point, you don't have to look for just one brand's sales just look for the total for the segments you're arguing about. Not difficult. I've even repeatedly shown you where the numbers are and offered to do the regression.

When you can get those total numbers with segment composition, I'll respond at that time otherwise this is literally just wasting time.

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See, I don't agree with the horsepower being the main sales point for the first gen NSX.

When I bought my NSX in 2000, one of the reasons why was b/c it was a stiffer platform, easier to modify and increase the hp. If the NSX was upgraded to 400 hp, I would have bought new. I think you're correct though, with hp not being a main sales point for the NSX. But I do think it is a main sales point for the sports car buyer…especially here in the US.
 
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When I bought my NSX in 2000, one of the reasons why was b/c it was a stiffer platform, easier to modify and increase the hp. If the NSX was upgraded to 400 hp, I would have bought new. I think you're correct though, with hp not being a main sales point for the NSX. But I do think it is a main sales point for the sports car buyer…especially here in the US.

In 2000, the standard was still frankly low 13-high 12 second 1/4 mile and ~175+ mph for most top spec sports cars when horsepower was called into question. The 3.2 NSX was capable of matching that performance level for the most part. It wasn't until when the NSX went out of production in 2005 that everything began to skyrocket into the 11 second and soon to be 10 second arena of today.

I think hp is a strong point of consideration and a quick spec to name so you know where a car stands almost immediately when first inquiring upon it. However, sports cars like Miatas do not not have a lot of hp, but sell well. The new one even has a nice balance of menace/elegance and best looking one yet I might add. Horsepower is relative and only one factor in performance though. For instance, a mere 300 whp (~360 crank hp) SW20 Turbo MR2 can muster a high 11 second 1/4 mile with proper traction. That's not a whole lot of hp for a rather fast time. The MR2 is ~2800 lbs which is not far from the standard NSX's weight either. Both were never truly designed for the 1/4 mile either.
 
However, sports cars like Miatas do not not have a lot of hp, but sell well. The new one even has a nice balance of menace/elegance and best looking one yet I might add. Horsepower is relative and only one factor in performance though.

True enough. The Miata appeals to a different buyer with different preferences. It's a modern interpretation of what made the old British sports cars great...but w/o Lucas electronics. I got 2nd place in a 6 hour enduro in one: great handling, great braking…took 20 minutes to get down the straight. ;)

OTOH, I drove a Miata with a 302 and that was the epitome of a blast. Reminded me of my Dad's 427 Shelby Cobra replica: fun, out of balance, and not too long before performance exceeded talent.
 
I think hp is a strong point of consideration and a quick spec to name so you know where a car stands almost immediately when first inquiring upon it. However, sports cars like Miatas do not not have a lot of hp, but sell well. The new one even has a nice balance of menace/elegance and best looking one yet I might add. Horsepower is relative and only one factor in performance though.

do keep in mind, Miata's don't sell for $150,000 and up.

when dropping in excess of six figures on a performance car, it had better have six figures worth of performance...
 
True enough. The Miata appeals to a different buyer with different preferences. It's a modern interpretation of what made the old British sports cars great...but w/o Lucas electronics. I got 2nd place in a 6 hour enduro in one: great handling, great braking…took 20 minutes to get down the straight. ;)

OTOH, I drove a Miata with a 302 and that was the epitome of a blast. Reminded me of my Dad's 427 Shelby Cobra replica: fun, out of balance, and not too long before performance exceeded talent.

O, the 302 in the little ol Miata sounds like a blast! That would be interesting to experience.

do keep in mind, Miata's don't sell for $150,000 and up.

when dropping in excess of six figures on a performance car, it had better have six figures worth of performance...

I understand your expectations. I was referring to horsepower and sports cars in general tho. The Miata and FRS/BRZ are sports car that do not need high hp to sell, even if there have been complaints. The i8 has ~350 hp, but is still managing to sell 1,500+ units at $135K and there are talks that next year will ramp up production numbers drastically. The V8 R8 only has 400+ hp, but sells relatively well. A nicely packaged V8 Camaro can offer similar performance at a fraction of the R8 price. I have my own standards for $100K+ car, but I was just giving examples of low hp, high end sport cars.
 
the FRS/BRZ doesn't need high horsepower to move out of show rooms, because the demographic buying these vehicles is the same as all Scion models. young college aged (give or take) people with limited income looking for a sporty car at minimal cost. the exact opposite of the demographic considering the purchase of a Supercar.

a 430 horsepower V8 Audi R8 is still a very stout road car, much more than fast enough for anyone on the street. but anyone shopping for a Chevy Camaro isn't cross shopping for that or a 2015 NSX.

as for the BMW I8, in my opinion I reckon it's really in a class of its own. I think the majority of buyers for that car would be previous BMW owners who specifically like that car. as opposed to someone trying to decide between it or an R8 or 911.

as for the new NSX? I'm with everybody else, I have no idea what's happening... :biggrin:
 
So do you have the total production numbers autos
Sales numbers, yes. See below.

When you can get those total numbers with segment composition, I'll respond at that time
I'm sure you will - with yet another of your silly demands. You are TOO FUNNY! First, you demand backup and I post quotes and numbers. You erroneously claim that I am quoting "editorials". You demand more numbers, and I post those numbers. You demand Mercedes sales, so I post those. Never satisfied and always unremittingly antagonistic, you post still more demands instead of simply accepting that your previous claims were misleading and erroneous. Furthermore, I've posted those numbers and quotes complete with verifiable references. You post numbers without attributions; for all anyone knows, they may be completely made-up. All to justify opinions that, upon further examination, turn out to be disprovable and just flat-out wrong. As in this perfect example...

Indeed, the 90's were "great times" for the auto industry as seen by the double digit increase from the previous decade.
I'm surprised you're still making that statement, because it's still not true, no matter how many times you say it. The first half of the 90's were AWFUL times for the auto industry. Later in the decade things picked up. But the first part of the decade was an absolute disaster. Again, here are quotes from January 1992, looking back at 1991: "All of the pessimism depressed sales of cars and light trucks in 1991 to 12.3 million vehicles, an 11.5% decline from a lackluster 1990, and the worst performance since 1983"..."a dismal year for the entire industry". And in January 1993, looking back at 1992: "Overall U.S. car and truck sales rose 4% to 12.9 million vehicles in 1992 from 12.3 million a year earlier, the second-worst year for U.S. auto sales since 1983."

It's easy to see why the early 1990's were viewed as a terrible time when you look at the year by year sales, and compare the first half of the 1990's to sales in the years that preceded that period (late 1980's) as well as the years that followed (late 1990's). Here are figures as reported in the early-January sales reports in the Wall Street Journal each year:

1986 - 16 million
1987 - 14,920,447
1988 - 15,458,944
1989 - 14,544,749
1990 - 13,879,224
1991 - 12,322,708
1992 - 12,873,052
1993 - 13,900,670
1994 - 15,080,758
1995 - 14,754,591
1996 - 15,133,161
1997 - 15,150,511
1998 - 15,591,985
1999 - 16,958,670

As you can see from these numbers, the auto industry hit a bad slump during the period 1990-1993. It was only later in the decade that sales recovered at all from their levels of ten years earlier, and the small growth in auto sales for the decade as a whole over the previous decade - 6 percent if your claimed total for the 1980's is accurate - was far less than the country's 13 percent growth in population (Ref).

The problem with trying to generalize about an entire decade is that you end up mixing good years with bad years, what the statisticians refer to as "the fallacy of generalizing based on arbitrary endpoints". That occurs when you look at the 1980's as a whole; auto sales in the first half of the decade were weak, the second half was strong. It's true of the 1990's; again, the first half of the decade was a miserable time for the auto industry, while sales recovered in the second half of the decade. It's also true of the 2000's, in which the period 2000-2007 was consistently strong, but the bottom dropped out in 2008 and especially the years after that. So each decade has weak years and strong years. In the case of the 1990's, sales in each the first four years of that arbitrary decade were abysmal.
 
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.......so the target customer's profile for the new nsx is ..................a statistician who is passionate about car sales in the 90's.........:tongue:
 
Perhaps complicating things for Honda is the Acura brand only exists in North American and China.

Acura now exists in Russia too...

http://acura.ru/

While Acura had been US and Canada only for many years since being introduced in the 80's, in the last 10 years they've expanded the brand to China, Mexico, and now Russia. So they have been making an effort to gradually expand the brand to be more global.

But by far the most glaring omission for Acura is Europe. They can't even manage to sell their Honda brand very well in Europe, so why would they bother to launch Acura there?
 
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While Acura had been US and Canada only for many years since being introduced in the 80's, in the last 10 years they've expanded the brand to China, Mexico, and now Russia. So they have been making an effort to gradually expand the brand to be more global.

Most interesting.
I wasn't aware of that.
I wonder if they have a larger plan to introduce a new range of vehicles in the future to differentiate the marque further.
 
But by far the most glaring omission for Acura is Europe. They can't even manage to sell their Honda brand very well in Europe, so why would they bother to launch Acura there?

This is the truth. Honda has a giant 1% of the market in Europe. No idea why but a limited product line, high comparative prices, and poorly designed cars for the region could be culprits. And yet they still get Type R models.

However, the reason for launching another brand would be to distance that brand from whatever "Frame of Reference" that causes Europeans to not buy a Honda. I'd be interested in seeing the marketing studies in Europe and what they state.

I propose Honda buy Aston Martin for a measly 2-3 billion and launch Acura as the middle segment between Honda and AM. They'd have instant brand validity with Europeans, could transfer the design language down to Acura, and finally have the "tier one" sports luxury division they've craved for so long. ;)

Oh, and it'd be great if they got off their posteriors and started a substantive Type R division too.
 
Someone early on mentioned $8000/month income as baseline. No way. Given income tax (federal + state) and sales tax we're talking about 18-24 months of such a person's income going to only this car and taxes. People gotta eat too, ya know. Folks who have been in that income bracket long enough to be able to eat AND buy new NSX (i.e. out of savings) may be wise enough not to.

I'd agree with Ken and others that the profile of likely buyers are not current NSX owners, but people who would otherwise be buying Porsche, R8, Ferrari, and McLaren. There may be some overlap between current NSX owners, original NSX owners, and people in that supercar market (I'm aware of one original/current owner who bought a 650S last year) - but their numbers won't put a dent in the 1000-cars-per-year targets. Not sure it is a good strategy to try to pull people up into the NSX price bracket, instead of going after people already there.
 
The NSX as wonderful as its legacy and future prospects are, will have the epic 991 from Porsche, the Audi R8 and GT-R to live up to and those cars (with the exception of the GT-R) are ones that I'd gladly take in a heartbeat or try and extend my funding for. I'm not sure the NSX can capture that same pedigree unless its released with stunning performance numbers or value for the money...

Pedigree? Porsche, sure. They've been building sports cars with razor sharp handling almost exclusively for a very long time.

But Audi?? The brand's history is one of building mostly heavy front wheel drive luxury sedans with powerful engines, numb steering, and conservative exteriors. The brand never even offered a sports car until recently and when they finally did it was done by buying Lamborghini and pairing that with pieces from the VW parts bin. While they may have done a good job at this, I would not call this pedigree.

What you really mean to say is that Audi conveys a higher status within your aspirational social circle. Audi is more desirable not so much because you desire the car itself, but because you desire some quality of being that belongs to those who drive Audi. Audi is the brand that attractive and prestigious people buy. Honda is what your parents or grandmother would buy.
 
Pedigree? Porsche, sure. They've been building sports cars with razor sharp handling almost exclusively for a very long time.

But Audi?? The brand's history is one of building mostly heavy front wheel drive luxury sedans with powerful engines, numb steering, and conservative exteriors. The brand never even offered a sports car until recently and when they finally did it was done by buying Lamborghini and pairing that with pieces from the VW parts bin. While they may have done a good job at this, I would not call this pedigree.

What you really mean to say is that Audi conveys a higher status within your aspirational social circle. Audi is more desirable not so much because you desire the car itself, but because you desire some quality of being that belongs to those who drive Audi. Audi is the brand that attractive and prestigious people buy. Honda is what your parents or grandmother would buy.

I concur with these unfiltered statements.
 
Audi pretty much invented 4wd for mainstream cars, pushed forced induction when it was shunned by almost all other manufacturers for production vehicles and is one of the body successful rallying brands of all time if not the most. It DOES have pedigree along with those other characteristics mentioned.
 
Doesn't the Audi "pedigree" go back to the Auto Union cars? Either way, I don't think anyone can discount their recent racing successes and their string of great performance cars from the last decade or so. VW has done a good job of letting them do their own thing (even at the cost of cannabilizing other division's sales).
 
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