What's going on here?

TURBO2GO · 30 May 2013

So Jim would you say the difference between the first two and last two videos is just smaller multiple correction? The nice thing about the NSX is once the tail does come around it doesnt actually travel that far. It seems content to spin in a very tight circle. Whereas with that snapback you travel A LOT. Letting it spin seems safer than risking that snapback.

Stephen@NCAutoUSA · 30 May 2013

You guys are all running baffled oil pans right? Or is this only an issue with long sweeping right hand turns?

TURBO2GO · 30 May 2013

I have it but its really not an issue unless you are R comps or slicks AND on long sweepers.

Stephen@NCAutoUSA · 30 May 2013

Gotcha.

R13 · 30 May 2013

TURBO2GO said:
So Jim would you say the difference between the first two and last two videos is just smaller multiple correction? The nice thing about the NSX is once the tail does come around it doesnt actually travel that far. It seems content to spin in a very tight circle. Whereas with that snapback you travel A LOT. Letting it spin seems safer than risking that snapback.

I'm not Jim, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I think it's pretty widely accepted that in the vast majority of situations, if you've lost immediate control, it's better to just spin once, or just "both-feet-in" slide vs. getting into a tank slapper. All of the autocross car+curb incidents I've ever seen were someone trying to save it, the car snapping back once or twice, and then spinning. In the same situations if the drivers had just given it up and locked it down, it would have stopped in a safer fashion covering much less distance out of control.

Hell, I've seen Lamborghini's chief test driver stuff a Gallardo trying to drive out of a tank slapper (he was ok, car was not). If he's not saving it, it'd be down to dumb luck if I did

.

Hrant · 30 May 2013

LOL! I too stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night, and my name is not Jim :wink:

I agree with R13. And Dave, here is my observation. If you are getting into a turn too hot, unless you are Senna or Fangio and luck is on your side, there is no way out of spinning. All the comments about throttle through it, counter steer, hold and steer back, make minor adjustments etc. are IMHO bs if you are having these at speeds more than the car/turn can handle. In some sweepers it can be over 70-80 mph, in other cases you can spin even at 35 mph.

If you look at some of the videos where there is a save vs a spin, try to assess the speeds in each scenario, and see if a slight lift helped the save. In Jim's videos, one of the saves was with a slight lift; the other was a minor correction at what appears to be a constant throttle. Most spins seem to occur when one is on throttle during the turn (let's put aside the early apex scenario) or they brake in panic - which as you note with an NSX the rotational diameter is smaller given the mid engine nature.

YMMV.

TURBO2GO · 30 May 2013

Hrant I agree there is definitely a point of no return and no matter who you are as a driver you can't defy physics. Best you can do is really learn where that edge is and just not go over it. I really am black had a chance to try these drift events, and more so cheap tires. Seeing how vastly different they grip as temp changes was a real surprise. Because I have always ran great tires I never knew. It is far from an initial grip problem, cheaper tires just have short limits on hot or cold. Their operating window is much more narrow. I've also learned the factory steering wheel is just not very good for track work. It is definitely too big.

CL65 Captain · 31 May 2013

TURBO2GO said:
So Jim would you say the difference between the first two and last two videos is just smaller multiple correction? The nice thing about the NSX is once the tail does come around it doesnt actually travel that far. It seems content to spin in a very tight circle. Whereas with that snapback you travel A LOT. Letting it spin seems safer than risking that snapback.

yes. And more importantly, catching it early.

Dave, since you have access to an autocross course/skidpad my advice is set the thing up so it massively oversteers. Full stiff on the rear bar, soft on the front.... bump up the compression on the rear. Whatever it takes to make the thing unstable on the ass end. Then go out and practice, not trying to drift, but just recognizing the beginning of the slide and using small corrections to keep it in line. The NSX is a hard car to drift, and the objective is to learn to be able to feel when it first starts and how much of a small correction will keep it in check when you do catch it early.

Here is a video of Dan Clarke (Champ car driver) in my NSX. We set the car up to oversteer that day and I was practicing doing exactly what I said above. You can see in the video.... 1. how quickly Dan recognizes and reacts to the skid 2. that his corrections are small. In fact he's only opening the wheel up back to straight and turning back in. And 4:30 mark when he does have to make a big correction how difficult it is to get back quickly. So the key is to get it early and small.

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<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z9FtZhh97ak?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_ZeGWXDkUW0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Hrant · 31 May 2013

Excellent video Jim. I take a slightly different read from you albeit Dan is a great driver and yes for the most parts the input corrections were small (not multiple) except at 4:30 min in the tape.

Listen to the throttle input/responses, in almost all the corners that he anticipated it and was catching it he lifted or was very soft on the throttle - not braking and not throttling through it; this is what I noted in an earlier post. The 4:30 min was one where a less driver would have lost it under panic/braking or even more shuffling of the steering wheel; he managed to "save it from a spin" but again he was pretty much totally off the throttle and perhaps even tapped the brake. If he was carrying more speed that would not have been a save but also not necessarily a total spin; he would have locked it down with two feet in.

Now, here in California in HPDE - especially when it appears it was not an advanced/racer group - we frown on people stealing apexes or passing on the left when the passing is given on the right .... :wink:

DDozier · 31 May 2013

Hrant said:
Excellent video Jim. I take a slightly different read from you albeit Dan is a great driver and yes for the most parts the input corrections were small (not multiple) except at 4:30 min in the tape.

Listen to the throttle input/responses, in almost all the corners that he anticipated it and was catching it he lifted or was very soft on the throttle - not braking and not throttling through it; this is what I noted in an earlier post. The 4:30 min was one where a less driver would have lost it under panic/braking or even more shuffling of the steering wheel; he managed to "save it from a spin" but again he was pretty much totally off the throttle and perhaps even tapped the brake. If he was carrying more speed that would not have been a save but also not necessarily a total spin; he would have locked it down with two feet in.

Now, here in California in HPDE - especially when it appears it was not an advanced/racer group - we frown on people stealing apexes or passing on the left when the passing is given on the right .... :wink:

Dan is a great Driver no doubt, but I am sure Jim was happy to have him out of his car, Turn9 and Turn10 at Putnam is not the place to work on your "catching oversteer" skills. Regardless of how the car was setup he was pushing much harder than Jim or I do at that track. One of the luxuries of Putnam is low risk potencial for a relativly high speed course, some of the groups that run there have no passing rules in the advance group other than one, if you can get your fender to the other guys door you win and he has to give way. Still one of my favorite places to run.

Dave

TURBO2GO · 31 May 2013

Jim thanks for the videos. Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words sometimes. What did you end up using for a camera and mike? Is it mounted on your harness bar?

CB72 · 31 May 2013

I believe we are facing two totally different oversteer situations.
The first one when you powering out of a corner and the second one when you lift off in the middle of a corner.
I believe the second one is the most difficult to catch and to me it's on my list of deadly sins when driving a mid engine car well at least the NSX.
The difference comes from the fact that when you are applying power you are typically in a safe position whereas when you lift off it's because you are already going too fast...
In my latest outing at Haute Saintonge, I faced both situations the first at 6'38 and the second at 5'03 where I got really close to the edge of the track on a downhill off camber corner.
The local instructor said that many track drivers would benefit from going to a drift school.
I'm sure he's right!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBzM8NUA_ng

TURBO2GO · 31 May 2013

Yeah 5:03 is much more hairy than 6:38. Throttle out oversteer is so much easier to control. The car gives you notice if you're listening to it.

CL65 Captain · 31 May 2013

DDozier said:
Dan is a great Driver no doubt, but I am sure Jim was happy to have him out of his car, Turn9 and Turn10 at Putnam is not the place to work on your "catching oversteer" skills. Regardless of how the car was setup he was pushing much harder than Jim or I do at that track. One of the luxuries of Putnam is low risk potencial for a relativly high speed course, some of the groups that run there have no passing rules in the advance group other than one, if you can get your fender to the other guys door you win and he has to give way. Still one of my favorite places to run.

Dave

My favorite picture of Dan....

<img src="http://www.danclarke.me/picture/1lat-hill-vegas353.jpg?pictureId=10032853&asGalleryImage=true" />

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