what oil to use for track driving?

[nsxotic911]

Well, he's also an airline pilot, so of course he is.

He's also politically Conservative :tongue: OOOH....

Thus Terry's advice was to get a couple events and 1500 miles of street driving on the oil and seeing whether I can longer or shorter. He said that after looking at the sample, you may be able to go 8 events before changing the oil or the results will show 4 is too many. No way of knowing until taking a look at the sample.

Right, a COUPLE of events, not 18 This isn't out of line with what I'm saying.. He may then suggest to do one, or four, 8, 16 etc... depending on results. That wide margin is why an oil analysis is needed.

It will save time + money + wear/engine risk & $$ again once the proper intervals for the particular application is determined. I know we're in agreement, but I wanted to be clear for the track forum nazis..

 

[CL65 Captain]

Also as a followup, because someone PM and asked me...

RLI is NOT Red Line Oils....

It's Renewable Lubricants, Inc.
http:// www.renewablelube.com

Apparently, they use Corn to make a synthetic motor oil.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=172664

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

You've performed zero or very little oil analysis so I fail to understand why this makes you a better tribologist than I.

This morning suddenly you are now a tribologist....

Paul, in that case I just think you need to get your sticky hands off the keyboard.

Asking what weight oil to use is like asking what the best intake is to get the most horesepower and provides the best filtration. In both cases, the true answer is, "it depends," and without scientific analysis, as you say, it's all conjecture and hypothesis. I'll even add "bullshit" to that. To get a true sense of the effects of the intake, you need a dyno + additional analysis on the filtration.

Right. I think we all already know how that thread on NSXPRIME would turn out.... 20 guys spouting off about more crap they know nothing about.

Look. At which point you decide to run in spec miata and need 2hp to pass Ken Sutherland- let me know and we can discuss your intake needs. Until then that's another argument waiting to happen with you that I don't give a rip about.

This was a very simple question. Now this thread is turning out like the special Olympics. If you feel the need to cross the finish line first, I'll be happy to let you by because I know about five years from now you will be able to look back and say to yourself... WOW! I was a real dumb ass in 2009.

To get a true sense of the oil, you need an quantitive, scientific analysis. Many applicatiosn are "good enough" but this person is trying to determine the most optimal oil for his application and since there are so many variables in determining that, there's no way to provide a non-bs answer without performing some real analysis...

Actually, out of 52 posts the OP posted exactly.... twice!!

He wanted to know if Rob Morrison's recommendation would be applicable for his use. He got his answer. However, it is clear as day to any reader that the only person spouting off on this thread about advice not being "good enough" or requiring "real analysis" is....... you. Shocking.

Yeah, Terry isn't very fond of Mobil 1, and he's got me on RLI. I've had superior results with it though. See my Supercharger oil results in a different post, looks spotless.

My guess is that the answer is too simple, not nuanced enough, and takes away from the sparkle of Jedi track-master aura know it all which is why you are irritated by it.

..PS: I'm in a bad mood today

Do you think anyone gives a flying rip what a program manager at Microsoft with absolutely zero motor-sports/track experience.... with an NSX that has seen as much action as your average collector Model T... and now sits on jack-stands with an engine that likely needs to be rebuilt... thinks about motor oil for the track? Are you !@#$ kidding me?

Why don't you come down with me to rose cup this year. You will meet racers with real world experience at all levels of motor-sports that manage to compete and win at a national level and they did it without Paul's great advice.

Thus Terry's advice was to

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

Both telephone reps, whom almost always will give you the factory recommendation.

Do they campaign an NSX? If so, for how many years? Are they an engine builder? How many times have they raced, inspected, and tore-down an NSX engine to examine for wear? NONE

 

[stuntman]

Do they campaign an NSX? If so, for how many years? Are they an engine builder? How many times have they raced, inspected, and tore-down an NSX engine to examine for wear? NONE

I agree with your point John.

I think Redline worked with Realtime's SWC GT effor though...

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I agree with your point John.

I think Redline worked with Realtime's SWC GT effor though...

I spoke with David at red-line on one occasion when I was using their products. He recommended a minimum 40 weight engine oil to me. Royal Purple's rep wanted to get me into their RD30 racing oil.

What I've learned is that their is a grey area between weights. To be classified as a 30 or 40 or 50 weight oil your centriStrokes have to be within a specific range. Some oils will fall to the lower side, others may fall to the higher side.

Thus, it is not in anyway uncommon when talking to reps for one to give you a 30W oil recommendation and another to you give a 40 weight. They both could be right.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Both telephone reps, whom almost always will give you the factory recommendation.

Do they campaign an NSX? If so, for how many years? Are they an engine builder? How many times have they raced, inspected, and tore-down an NSX engine to examine for wear? NONE

FYI: Terry is not a telephone rep.

[FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Sans-Serif]TERRY DYSON has more than 25 years of independent oil analysis interpretation and consultation work.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Sans-Serif]At various points in his life, He has applied his knowledge of lubricants and tribology through ownership of a fleet maintenance shop, team ownership and driving in the ProSports Car/IMSA Professional Road Racing Series across the United States.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Sans-Serif]He also served for nine and a half years as a hazardous waste and petroleum/lubricants officer for the US Army and Navy. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Sans-Serif]Terry is a graduate of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, a member of Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers (#38307), a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers, as well as a member of the American Society for Testing and Materials.[/FONT]

John, from what I have been reading. RLI's biobased oils are Ester based stock. There are two other companies making oil with an Ester based stock.... Motul & Red Line.

 

[nsxotic911]

There is no need to make it personal John, it's just a Prime post. You also don't have to be offended and go on the attack just because someone has a different take on a given topic than you do.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

FYI: Terry is not a telephone rep.

If he's taking telephone calls from customers, and selling them on his oil analysis services, then to me that makes him a telephone sales rep. That is not to say that he could very well be quite good at what he does- running a business selling oil analysis services.

However, to me none of this gives him any specific insight into tracking/racing an NSX engine, nor what it takes to not blow one of these up under sustained usage.

For that I would call a Peter, a Brian, a Shad, a Greg, A ken, a Rob, an Eddie.... or someone whom I know has campaigned or at least had a hand in campaigning an NSX and shown me that they have solved that specific problem successfully.

That is not to say that one approach is not better than the other. I am just saying what has worked for me- not listening to people that couldn't possibly have any idea what they are talking about. Like Paul.

Everyone else is free to do things their own way.

 

[nsxotic911]

If he's taking telephone calls from customers, and selling them on his oil analysis services, then to me that makes him a telephone sales rep. That is not to say that he could very well be quite good at what he does- running a business selling oil analysis services.

However, to me none of this gives him any specific insight into tracking/racing an NSX engine, nor what it takes to not blow one of these up under sustained usage.

For that I would call a Peter, a Brian, a Shad, a Greg, A ken, a Rob, an Eddie.... or someone whom I know has campaigned or at least had a hand in campaigning an NSX and shown me that they have solved that specific problem successfully.

That is not to say that one approach is not better than the other. I am just saying what has worked for me- not listening to people that couldn't possibly have any idea what they are talking about. Like Paul.

Everyone else is free to do things their own way.

Peter, Brian, Shad, Greg, Ken, Rob or Eddie do not have the same insight because they have different tools and specialties.

Terry doesn't have thousands of tuning and dyno experience to tell you at what HP level the engine will fail.

AFAIK, Shad, nor Eddie or others do not have a lab that is able to detect at the parts per million level the iron content, and be able to analyze whethere having 12 ppm is high or not, or whether the oil is breaking down too fast etc...

It is kind of like having 2 different types of Doctor. One can say with reasonable certaintity based on the symptoms whethre you may have the flue, hepatitis, obese, or probably just fine. But without a blood analysis, Dr House nor Doogy Houser can tell you with 100% certainty which strain of flu you have, hepatitis, or whether your HDL/LDL levels are in balance.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Peter, Brian, Shad, Greg, Ken, Rob or Eddie do not have the same insight because they have different tools and specialties.

From what I can tell from talking with vendors they all seem to have pretty much the same in-sight:

Your a huge PITA.

... but I mean this in the nicest way possible, so no hard feelings.

But without a blood analysis, Dr House nor Doogy Houser can tell you with 100% certainty which strain of flu you have, hepatitis, or whether your HDL/LDL levels are in balance.

I have the first four seasons on DVD. House often begins treatment before completing tests/diagnosis. I liked Doogy Houser.

 

[CL65 Captain]

After reading this thread, I think I am going to use Wesson Canola oil and change it twice a day at the track. :biggrin:

 

[nsxotic911]

After reading this thread, I think I am going to use Wesson Canola oil and change it twice a day at the track. :biggrin:

Funny. Ok, I know I'm getting beat up on the "twice a day" comment, in addition to other general derision so let me clarify.

... In retrospect, that comment was probably a bit over and silly and I do not want to suggest that it is anywhere near necessary and most usually has minimal value to change oil twice a day at a track event.

Nonetheless, that does not mean that my own studies and personal experience with oil analysis, based on many samples, hours or research and countless discussions with Terry (at a cost of $$) & Blackstone, makes me an idiot on this topic or that I should be derided because I have limited track events. I still stand by my statement: If you're looking to find the "best" oil for "your" track application, the "best" single method is to do oil sample with a professional reviewer. This may be Terry, Blackstone, Shad, Eddie and many others, some of this forum etc.. if they have the tools and the data. Without the data, it's all opinion and conjecture, some more professional and experienced than others.

As to the tone and disintegration of the the forum - this is an open forum and people should be respected for their viewpoints, and challenged professionaly where we have different opinions.

Where and when I have erred, I have looked hard to correct it and I've done my best to do so in this particular topic as well. If I have offended anyone, let me know where, and I will do my best to fix it.

 

[Edo]

Geez...I go away for a few years and NSXprime has turned into the local Internet Special Olympics.

*grabs popcorn*
*dons foam helmet*

 

[nsxotic911]

I have the first four seasons on DVD. House often begins treatment before completing tests/diagnosis. I liked Doogy Houser.

And House is often wrong on his first analysis, plus House is an ass and it's a show, not reality House wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hospital before being arrested, sued and his medical practice license yanked.