What is next in making my car faster?

[BioBanker]

What did you find deficient with the stock brakes and upgraded pads?

Most of my NSX track experience is at Mosport, which is a momentum hold on to your balls type of track where the less you touch your brakes the far better you are, but the stock set up with HP+, upgraded fluid and SS lines was great there.

I think that with real rubber on the car that you will be able to get through the corners much faster and wont need to touch the brakes nearly as much. Track dependant of course but I never had a single issue with the stock set up upgraded as above - it provided reliable braking when ever I needed it.

Rubber. GET RUBBER. Your track life will change. You may even decide (like I did) to drive on Rcomps all the time (and risk your life when it rains!).

 

[TURBO2GO]

What did you find deficient with the stock brakes and upgraded pads?

A brand new stoptech kit for sale for $3500 front, rear, and e-brake that's what. LOL. Suddenly my OEMs looked deficient.

 

[BioBanker]

But Dave - be ready for the day when you realize that you're going too fast for the current safety equipment (or not comfortable with the current safety equipment).

What did I do when that happened to me? I bought a cage for the car. Thankfully I came to my senses before I had it welded in because that would have been a massive mistake.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yeah you bought johns cage. And I almost bought it from you. I'm aware. This winter I'm putting in a rollbar with some side impact protection. Kinda designing my own thing on that one.

 

[Coz]

Thats not a bad spread but still might be a little too stiff for your level of driving and the tires you run at this point.
It takes some pretty serious grip and pushing to make spring weights like that work. Without grip on spring weights like that the car is going to slide all over the place like a rock shipping across the water.
When you start running R compounds and pushing the car harder when your ready, trust me, you will make it lean.
I would run a bigger sway bar up front if I were you. But thats just my opinion.

KW says that springs can be changed out within 200 lbs, anymore than that, they should be re-valved.

I have gone though many spring changes myself. I finally settled in at 757 and 514's recently bumping up the rears because of the power I put down and wanted to eliminate some of the rear squatting and shift more weight to the front. When I first made this change, my rear end got loose some, but I dialed it out with rake, compression and rebound a little at a time.

One thing for sure. You should only make one change at a time, otherwise you'll never get a handle on what helps you to improve or slows you down and the chasing will be endless.

Set up is pretty much basic for the NSX, we all tend to set them up the same way for track. Fine tuning it for what you want to feel and your driving style is what takes time and only comes with track time.

I agree with others here, before you do anything else, put some R compounds on the car for the track. I believe thats when you see things start coming together.
I think that would be your biggest step forward at this point and you will be amazed how the handling of the car wakes up when you start actually working the suspension.
One of the major benefits I found with R compounds was not only in cornering, but how much they improved late braking.

1000 front 600 rear. Same as Comptech rates. Noodle type R front sway bar for now and 05 oem rear which is zanardi (changed in 2004). The ride at slow speeds is firm... the two reasons I haven't gone to a larger sway bar setup so far is 1) Other than Dali no one makes really thick ones and 2) I am hesitant to make a street driven car stiffer still. Yes I know how sway bars work... it still stiffens wheel rate if it is just one going over a bump.

I mean I don't feel much lean as is.... Maybe I am not going fast enough... I am still on street tires. I can't even press down on the car and get the suspension to move. LOL

Also, maybe you know this. I am not sure if the dampers need to be revalved for softer springs. Being these are the competitions I am not sure how different they are. The springs that came on them when I bought them were 1200 front and 900 rear. If you can believe that.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I wonder if I can dial out some of the understeer by the damper settings? Is that possible? I just took Billy's recommendation on these things, dialed in what he told me to dial in, and have not touched it since. LOL I just make sure there is 150psi in the canisters as they tend to lose pressure over about a month and then go as is.

Guess I will order a set of NT01's for my next event.

 

[Ponyboy]

Dude...I run the same rate springs and the car did not truly come alive until I put on A005s (230 and 280). Instant increase in performance in every aspect: braking, handling, straight speed. If those aren't possible, then R compounds as previously suggested. There really is a huge difference.

billy's driving style may be significantly different than your own so it may behoove you to use that as starting point and fine tune from there. I had to do the same except I used Andrie's recommendations for my suspendo.

 

[Coz]

No kidding. I've been at that point and finally realized I needed to back off or cage my car.
I've decided to just back off some and go back to having fun.

But Dave - be ready for the day when you realize that you're going too fast for the current safety equipment (or not comfortable with the current safety equipment).

What did I do when that happened to me? I bought a cage for the car. Thankfully I came to my senses before I had it welded in because that would have been a massive mistake.

 

[illwillem]

Video is a BIG PLUS, you can see what your doing and see first hand corners or techniques that need work. I sorta left it out of my last post but i guess it should be said, there are fast guys and there are fast cars, Typically the fast guys learned to be that way driving a slow car.

I was given the oppertunity to drive a friend of mines car on the track. He'd had it forever and was way quicker in it than it should have been. After one lap I realized that it was indeed no magic beans that made the car go, in fact it was fucking awful, the differential felt inconsistent and tired, the suspension felt over sprung and the chassis was like a limp noodle. Point being, he had it for so long reletivly unchanged he knew every quirk about the car and exactly what to expect out of it in every situation. I would always make the Zen master jokes when he'd pyro meter the pavement then immediately get to work unhooking a swaybar or something. I couldn't drive it like I would drive any of my cars, thats for sure, and certainly not pull the times that he did. I guess there something to be said about familiarity with a set up.
This is coming from me, a guy that just changed EVERY aspect about his car at the same time. I have NO IDEA where ill be when I get back out there.:redface:

 

[RYU]

This is coming from me, a guy that just changed EVERY aspect about his car at the same time. I have NO IDEA where ill be when I get back out there.:redface:

Wow.. this is exactly how I feel now. I have no idea what to expect. My setup will work great IN MY MIND but I can pretty much guarantee it will be awful the first few sessions out there. I just wish I have time to at least get the Non-Comp stuff in before SOW next wknd.

No kidding. I've been at that point and finally realized I needed to back off or cage my car.
I've decided to just back off some and go back to having fun.

I realized this too Jim. It's a very good point. At the end of the day I simply am not willing to take the car further away from being a lightweight GT car that I can have fun (in comfort) while going up and down the CA coast or the occasional wknd HPDE. I think i've taken it far enough. This means my car will be setup relatively soft to many of you guys here even though i'm running 504lb/616lb front/rear spring rates and I want to go only as fast as my safety equipment will take me.

Really interesting reading the compromises each of you were willing to live with. It just goes to show there's no one perfect setup for everybody.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW.. My last 3 track sessions was on my 6AT BRZ with basic coilovers and the stock "Prius" tires. For goodness sake... I haven't had fun like that in ages. It's slower than my NSX for sure but it's really taught me to learn the basics all over again. I didn't have the grip, massive brakes or the power to hide mistakes. It wasn't overheating. I didn't have any mishifts. I didn't have to plug in my data logger. I basically sat it out during breaks and barely even checked tire pressure.

I'm still mediocre though... regardless of what car LOL

 

[Coz]

Yes, that and with tire pressures.
Where is it pushing ?

If it's already pushing, you probably don't need a bigger sway bar up front.
Realize the advise Billy gives you is just a great starting point from major experience.
Everybody feels things differently.
Take notes when you make changes on what changes handing wise....Very important to getting proper feedback from Billy.

I wonder if I can dial out some of the understeer by the damper settings? Is that possible? I just took Billy's recommendation on these things, dialed in what he told me to dial in, and have not touched it since. LOL I just make sure there is 150psi in the canisters as they tend to lose pressure over about a month and then go as is.

Guess I will order a set of NT01's for my next event.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Slower turns, especially going uphill. But that's a tight small track so I will see how it is at WGI before making any wholesale changes.

 

[Coz]

Turn in, mid corner, exit or all of them ?
Yes, less tire pressure up front or less compression will help this.
Tire temps will tell on how they are, if those look good, then take away some compression.

If your pushing on uphill turns, it's because the of the weight shift to the rear because of angle.

Which brings us too....Rake, which is also very important which many people over look. Changing the rake has a major impact on whether or not the car understeers or oversteers, turn in and braking.
I have been everywhere from 0 rake to 1/4" (Measuring off the jack pads). I now run 3/8" because I want my front tires to bite more during turn in and mid corner. But there is a happy medium since this can get tricky coming out of corners and late hard braking where the rear end will want to get loose. Its a balance of power being applied and the rear end squatting down and holding traction coming out and not too much that the rear end gets to light under hard late braking.. Setting up rake isn't so much of where it is at static, it's where it is when moving under various conditions taking into consideration spring weights, power output, tire compound, etc..
Its a fine line.

After I went through the majority of set up issues, springs, sway bars, alignment, knowing where my tires are patch-temp wise, etc...., Billy has had me making rake changes to get desired balance results.
I can honestly say at this point, that is pretty much the only major changes I make now that shifts the balance of the car other than minor compression/rebound and tire pressure depending on what track I'm on.

 

[docjohn]

as the others have said ....nto1 ..and don't be afraid to play with the rebound of your shocks at least.......for you getting serious about track speed you will need a timing device(of some sort) and a pyrometer.You will need to be able to get your R comps up to their optimal pressures,. and monitor that as the day goes on.Posting vids here for all of us backseat pros will also help.....I can be useful if you get wgi footage.

 

[ryneen]

Turbo2go,
Your car with its current mod list should be increadibly fast. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it doesn't handle nearly as we'll as it should. There appears to much guesswork done to your setup. The last place you should get advice from is a public forum. I made that mistake in my first few years tracking. The problem is that some of these guys know what they are talking about and some just don't. After proper tires, brakes and safety equipment, suspension setup is the single most important factor in how fast and easy your car can be driven.

My recommendation is to find a setup person whom knows the NSX inside and out. Someone with experience in ACTUALLY setting up fast, well balanced NSX's. Avoid the so called experts and find a real NSX expert. You will save yourself guesswork and you will have someone to grow with in your quest for going faster.

Just my .02.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I've tried to get billy for that and driving lessons. He's a busy guy. I'd even travel to a track if I could get him for a day. I probably would learn more from him than I did at skip barber. And he would guide me in setup since hes had extensive experience with this particular suspension too. Right now besides sway bars I've pretty much done everything he recommended verbatim, even down to tire pressure suggestions.

 

[MvM]

Interesting thread.

I am sorry I am unable to help you much here.
It's only this year that I have started tracking the NSX again but so far the car seems to handle everything pretty well what I do with it.

I do however run semi-slicks (Federal 595-RSR) AND I am using 235/40 tires in front. With those I find the car to be extremely neutral, even with trail braking and in fast corners. Doesn't seem to push at all. However, I think that with your Stoptech BBK, you wheel offset is different so 235/40 will rub a lot.

Another thing I still want to change is the steering wheel.
I have the Recaro PP seats now for over a year and absolutely love them. But since I sit pretty close to the steering wheel you start to notice that it is a bit large for twisty chicanes. As well as making entry and exit a bit more difficult.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Yeah honestly my 215 already rubs once in a blue moon. Really not sure how a 235 will do on a 17x8 with an et of 37. Unless I get some more negative camber uo front. And I don't know what that limit is without extra parts. I know I have some more room than the -1.5 I run now maybe because the car is lowered... Maybe I should go RA1 we just talked about this in another thread Hrant started. Or go 205...

 

[TURBO2GO]

I already PM'ed you. I will take it. Probably understeer even more now LOL

 

[MvM]

Yeah honestly my 215 already rubs once in a blue moon. Really not sure how a 235 will do on a 17x8 with an et of 37. Unless I get some more negative camber uo front. And I don't know what that limit is without extra parts. I know I have some more room than the -1.5 I run now maybe because the car is lowered... Maybe I should go RA1 we just talked about this in another thread Hrant started. Or go 205...

Actually, my alignment itself is pretty much stock.
With the TEIN-RA suspension, Type-R front sway and stock rear sway, lowered by about 1.3", front undercover (which seem to help), VIS Type-R hood, SOS non-compliance toe-links, NSX-R, CTSC and NSX-R wing, the car is just fine for me at the moment.

Was at the Belgium track of Zolder last Friday and was able to keep up with a McLaren MP4-12C from a friend's pretty well. He did run away at the straights, but those are fairly short at Zolder and are always followed by steep chicanes or slow corners.
We are pretty evenly matched so I am not dissatisfied.

 

[shrddr]

I already PM'ed you. I will take it. Probably understeer even more now LOL

The bar by itself will certainly shift the handling bias more towards understeer, but that will allow you to do several things:

1. Confidence to be more aggressive with the car.
2. SIGNIFICANTLY improve corner exit but enabling you to get to full throttle much sooner.
3. You will be able to adjust other parameters (shock settings) to make the car a little more oversteer prone on corner entry (which is desirable) while still maintaining corner exit stability.

 

[Coz]

What is the rake on your car ?

I already PM'ed you. I will take it. Probably understeer even more now LOL

 

[shrddr]

What is the rake on your car ?

+1

Rake is a very underutilized handling adjustment tool.

 

[Hrant]

Don't have much to add except to note this very key and excellent observation - given all the mods that you have already done to the suspension. Coz wrote:

"I agree with others here, before you do anything else, put some R compounds on the car for the track. I believe thats when you see things start coming together.
I think that would be your biggest step forward at this point and you will be amazed how the handling of the car wakes up when you start actually working the suspension.
One of the major benefits I found with R compounds was not only in cornering, but how much they improved late braking."

Dave, your NSX is not performing optimally - not to mention going as fast as it can - primarily because the suspension is not in balance with the tires. I can vouch how I found myself lost driving on my suspension set-up on old OEM street tires at the track; it was a handful and not in a fun way. But when I had Hoosiers on, the track just opened up and driving was like butter ..... :biggrin:

First order of business is just put some R compounds and then assess the handling and tweak accordingly.

 

[Coz]

You bet it is.
I learned after wasting so much time on chasing, in circles, so many other variables, that with simple rake adjustments, I can take out or add understeer/oversteer in a heartbeat, and this by far made the biggest improvements in balance for what I wanted handling wise for my style of driving after the basic's were done.

Its amazing how much even 1/8" difference in rake can change oversteer/understeer characteristic's of the NSX.
If it understeers, drop the front end or raise the rear end, if it oversteers, raise the front end or lower the rear end by 1/8" and see what happens as a starting point and go from there.

Once you get this balance dialed in, all it becomes is small tire pressure, compression/rebound adjustments for fine tuning depending on the track.

+1

Rake is a very underutilized handling adjustment tool.

- - - Updated - - -

Dave, your NSX is not performing optimally - not to mention going as fast as it can - primarily because the suspension is not in balance with the tires. I can vouch how I found myself lost driving on my suspension set-up on old OEM street tires at the track; it was a handful and not in a fun way. But when I had Hoosiers on, the track just opened up and driving was like butter ..... :biggrin:

First order of business is just put some R compounds and then assess the handling and tweak accordingly.

+1...