What is next in making my car faster?

TURBO2GO

TURBO2GO

Illustrious Member
Joined
8 March 2006
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Location
Boston
OK, I know the best way to be faster is for the driver to improve, and I steadily keep working on that as much as work and time allow. So please don't preach this to me, I already 100% know this.

My question is, what would make my car faster on the track? where is the most bang for the buck?

The car is an 05:

CTSC
Stoptech BBK
KW competition (triple adjustable not V3) coilovers
1000/600 swifts front and rear
Type R front sway bar, factory 2005 (zanardi) rear bar
Non-compliant rear beam bushings (all tiDave), toe links, front clamps, adjustable sway bar end links
STMPO FCB and RSTB, Type R upper and lower braces
Advan RSII 17/18 with 215/40/17 and 255/35/18 Neova AD08
Camber: Front: -1.5
Rear: -2.5
Toe front: 2mm OUT
rear: 3mm IN
Caster: 8.8 (max)

What is glaringly bad here? I know my sway bars are a bit thin
I can also go to dedicated track tires like NT01 (235/275)
I can probably go more aggressive on alignment
I can go turbo (no heatsoak)

Am I missing anything? What would be the biggest step? tires or sway bars?

I haven't been to a big track yet but at my smaller track the car pushes a little. I feel understeer... It's safe, but now that I am much more confident it's a bit too much. That's just one impression I have. I'm using the stock pads that came on my stoptechs which I don't think are great, and I ABUSED them and they held up just fine in fact the brakes were not even really sweating. Felt really good and solid/consistent lap after lap. But perhaps on a bigger track they won't hold up and I should change them.

So what's missing? stance?
 
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GT One-F1 true equal length tube headers, ARC titanium exhaust, Taitec test pipes, Downforce intake snorkel and that foam filter I forget what it's called... Uni... Comptech airbox on the way.
 
R-tires will make the biggest difference. But I would couple it with front camber bushings to get at leat -2.5° and more agressive sways.

Do you have buckets with 6 point harness ? Feeling the car in a bucket rather than fighting against Gs can help a lot in laptimes.

OS Giken.

Full cage... but not really compatible with a street driven car.
 
Jim WGI is like 6 hours away for me. Is that an ok distance to drive back and forth on these things? Also, do you run at all on track? I suppose I can try to remember not to go to full lock. Where do you like to buy these from anyway?

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asylum said:
R-tires will make the biggest difference. But I would couple it with front camber bushings to get at leat -2.5° and more agressive sways.

Do you have buckets with 6 point harness ? Feeling the car in a bucket rather than fighting against Gs can help a lot in laptimes.

OS Giken.

Full cage... but not really compatible with a street driven car.
Click to expand...

Just installing my 6 point harness. What are front camber bushings? The Comptech front camber kit? I can probably get more as is. Don't think I am maxed by any means.
 
Tires > underbody aero > spoiler aero > alignment

That's probably the order i'd be going if I had an awesome car like yours.

Speaking of long commutes to the track. That's been my biggest concern. You have the non-comp rear stuff so you are probably running less toe - this will help. In extreme cases I have considered removing the passenger seat to fit two rear tires (NT-01/R-Comps) and using street tires to get me to the track. I have never tried it though so I can say 2 x 275/18s will fit.

A few of my friends have other cars that drive on NT-01s to the track. That's on dry/warm CA weather though and their cars don't run as much rear toe as us.
 
I'm very confused about rear toe. I went with Billy's suggestion, but I am not sure if he was saying that is the number to run with or without the non compliance bushings and links. Some others I have read, say that the rear toe in was only to create a safe condition because they bushings do in fact deflect. And that if those have been changed, you should run zero toe (I think all around even). Then my alignment guy said that is more risky... So not quite sure what to do there.

I can't take my seat out because I still do DE's with instruction often. I go solo a lot but I gain more with quality instruction so I need that passenger seat.
 
Ed check your link. It's just photos
 
TURBO2GO said:
Jim WGI is like 6 hours away for me. Is that an ok distance to drive back and forth on these things? Also, do you run at all on track? I suppose I can try to remember not to go to full lock. Where do you like to buy these from anyway?

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Just installing my 6 point harness. What are front camber bushings? The Comptech front camber kit? I can probably get more as is. Don't think I am maxed by any means.
Click to expand...

I use to drive 3 hrs each way on NT01s and on the street between track events. Yes, you can drive to/from the track no problem. You can get them from a variety of places, including online at DiscountTireDirect.com

I would NOT install the Comptech camber bushings. I did and now the minimum camber I can get is around 2 degrees. I'm not tracking as much as I use to and now considering putting the OEM bushings back. With OEM you should be able to max out and 1.5 ish and if you want to change back to a more conservative street setting all you have to do is an alignment. I can't do that now unless I reinstall the OEM AND get an alignment.
 
Tires, FOR SURE.

Get one of those tiny hidden under the bumper rear trailer hitches and cart the wheels to the track on that.

Seriously, get real rubber and then get prepared to find other weaknesses in your car. You will wonder why you got those brakes also!
 
TURBO2GO said:
Ed check your link. It's just photos
Click to expand...

Dave I meant that so you can refer to Danny's build. His front lower splitter and wing makes a difference on the track and agreed on tires and check your pm box. I have suggested more in the pm.
 
Jim 235/275? 205/265? what do you think about toe settings with Non compliant parts?

I think I shouldn't have gone with the AD08 now. Should have gone NT01 and Conti extreme contact sports for street. More sticky track and more mild street. I think tires are a bad place to try to compromise.

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BioBanker said:
. You will wonder why you got those brakes also!
Click to expand...

What do you mean by that? I actually loved the stoptechs on my last event (first with them).

The car was so different. I went from stock suspension to the KW competitions, I upgraded my comptech brace to the STMPO brace, I went from OEM brakes to stoptechs, I went from compliant bushings to non compliant, added brake ducts, a more aggressive alignment setting, had another 75 pounds removed... all this was done at once. It felt like a different car. Second day after I started to feel comfortable and push I was 5 seconds a lap faster than before on a 1.6 mile track.
 
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TURBO2GO said:
Jim 235/275? 205/265? what do you think about toe settings with Non compliant parts?

I think I shouldn't have gone with the AD08 now. Should have gone NT01 and Conti extreme contact sports for street. More sticky track and more mild street. I think tires are a bad place to try to compromise.
...
Click to expand...

Have you considered Toyo R888 205/40/17 + 255/35/18? can be used on the street... will be very close to OEM sizes and will save some lbs also...
 
I just put the uppers in at this point and get anywhere from 1.5 to 3.

CL65 Captain said:
I use to drive 3 hrs each way on NT01s and on the street between track events. Yes, you can drive to/from the track no problem. You can get them from a variety of places, including online at DiscountTireDirect.com

I would NOT install the Comptech camber bushings. I did and now the minimum camber I can get is around 2 degrees. I'm not tracking as much as I use to and now considering putting the OEM bushings back. With OEM you should be able to max out and 1.5 ish and if you want to change back to a more conservative street setting all you have to do is an alignment. I can't do that now unless I reinstall the OEM AND get an alignment.
Click to expand...
 
17x8 fronts I would really be stretching a 205. I think 205 was OK on oem 7" wheels. I like the weight of course but I have to see if a 205 will even fit properly on an 8" wheel.
 
few things, I run 0 toe because I drive my nt01's to the track 200miles round trip. camber isn't going to tear up the tires, toe is, and the gains from adding toe is to me is a wash when against tire longevity. I seriously dont know what your alignment guy is smoking (0 toe being "risky" wtf?!) its a Personal preference for me to have 0 toe, but the toe spec's ARE exaggerated to compensate for bushing deflection, so even if you still want some you don't need as much as factory says. I also have a drive to track set of wheels for the rear when driving to a track extra far away. The front of the car is so light the tires don't wear nearly as fast as the rears even with bozo alignment specs. The r-comps ride shotgun with me, since I don't take passengers I ditched the pass seat for now. As far as r888, don't. They are the same compound as the nt01 but cycle out faster and are awful as they get old. If you have to daily on an r comp nt01 can be driven down to the cords with no loss of feel, I dallied my s2k on a single set for 6months with track days too. 235fronts will be perfect on 8's. slight rub at full lock but thats nabd since your not hard parker stance spec lowered. Your fenders sans liners will be fine.


As far as tires, you NEED r comps to match the coilovers, sways and spring rates you've got. Running street tires with those rates/bars is doing more harm than good. You ideally want to understand the compound you'll run the buy pads and get spring rates from there. For example, back when I ran no aero I had falken Azenis and used porterfield r4s pads in the stock calipers. once i moved to nt01's the r4s pads couldn't lock the wheels when the tires were up to temp and would overheat. I then stepped it up to project mu club-racers that have a higher friction point and can deal with the loads generated by the rubber. Thats a direct result of tires dictating a change. Similarly so to your spring rate bars is much to harsh for the grip of a street tire. Less travel more shock is more energy for the tire to deal with. id bet that you'd actually be faster with the standard v3 300/300lb rates. Ill try and link some pertinent reference reading to illustrate that point when I'm not on a shitty iPad.


Maybe instead of r comps you should get softer type R suspension to match the street tire, food for thought.


I wish I could find 5 seconds by doing anything to my car anymore. That's a huge jump. Decent tires will probably gain you another 3 seconds or more with the mods you already have. Adding aero is a confidence mod and will take getting used to trusting so times will be gradually reduced, unlike typical power adders


Cl65;with the comptec camber sleeves you can press them out and re press them back in 1/4 turn in either direction, that'll get you less static camber. Also call Steve Ghent that rebuilds the ball joints. He makes a slick adjustable lobe, same as the comptech but with a hexed end to turn them (Still requires popping the ball joints to change camber) they are unlisted, but he made a pair for my car. Haven't used them to see if they slip yet, buy FYI they're out there.


Lastly, and a bit of an aside, If your totally honest with yourself why do you want to be 'faster' (no need to respond, just reflect) are you building a time attack car to compete with, talk smack with buddies, want to be the envy of other hpde drivers? With yours (and my) track orentied mod list our cars are pretty close to track only. In fact I never drive mine on the street anymore but spend more and more money on parts. Point being, there is a stepping off point. What do you really want out of it? Fun, Experience, trophys? All valid but not all require more stuff. I know it's got nothing to do with your question but the awns ear to getting a 'faster' car on the track leads it to a totally uncompromising level, you so far not already have r comps hints to me that your not willing to give up things that building a truly 'FAST' car require. If 'fast' means 'fun' you sorta get more leeway. After all not everyone can be Coz, that guy is FAST.
 
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As I've learned, more gas sooner, less brake & braked harder. Slow in out fast....and BIG balls.

Interesting post....

I'm not really fast :-). I can get my ass kicked every event by guys even in lower classes some days.... I just get to run with the big boys because I can keep up, I just drive for the love of driving, nothing more....I really don't care anymore if I win or lose. What I really care about is the fact I can still do it...I teach more than anything else these days. I am now teaching instructors how to be instructors and act as group asst leader with NASA in DE. In fact, I've instructed some of the guys that post here, coached them along the way and many have ridden with me. Ask them, I drive within myself, fast or slow, I stay in control. :-)
There are a few fast guys here, they got that way from practice and seat time.

Am I on the same level as a prepped race car, no. I still have A/C, Stereo w/boom box, GPS, DVD and what every else I have stuffed in the car with no cage, not running Hoosiers and not ripping my car to shreds. (well almost)

Am I on the level of Billy Johnson, LOL...in my dreams. Maybe 35 years ago....
We learn from each other....Your just beginning to know what we've known for some time.
We have....been there and done that. I think your doing ok.

Like I said, I get my ass kicked all the time by fast cars and drivers, oh, well...I drive my car home after events with my stereo blowing and my AC on depending on how hot it is :-)
I'm not sure life gets any better than this at my age and time.

Its about having fun. Pushing our cars and finding out how much we can get out of it and ourselves.
Doesn't matter what car we drive as long as well learn to drive it well on the conditions we have. The NSX is my choice for now, obviously yours too.

You really go into a lot of things. You are absolutely correct. Brake pad, rubber, grip, balance, and everything else effects how much we stick or slide. Sliding is a no no, scrubs off speed and burns up time, and late braking sucks if it can't handle the compound vs weight, balance and rake :-) ...everything is about balance.
You still have much to learn grasshopper as we all do, but you most certainly are on the right track..:-)
I mark my improvements by 10th of seconds within my limits, I wish I could take off 5.
Go back to having fun....your times will speak for themselves.

If your not driving your NSX as much as possible. You are missing out.
I look forward to meeting you and chasing you on track one day ;-)
BTW, I talk smack with all my buddies....;-)..thats what we do :-)
 
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Billy had a talk with me, and I remember bringing up a lot of suspension issues I had heard about and he kept saying how those things don't apply to the KW Competitions. He said most people don't really understand that suspension, compare it to more standard suspensions, and talk based on those assumptions. True as they may be generally, they don't apply to the competitions. I hear what you are saying about the tires illwillem, and you may definitely be right on the money. I am just mentioning something billy told me in the past nothing more. I am pretty green still, I chose my spring rates based on advice on this forum. My ride isn't bad at all, but it seems to get better as speed picks up. At slow speeds, it's definitely taught to say the least. So perhaps a spring change won't be bad. My desire to be faster honestly has come from time trials. I know it's mostly in the driver, but I can only do so many events and I do as much as I can. I can't accelerate my learning curve more with the time that I have. You get that time after your run, and I'm like "man I need another few tents". LOL... Mind you, I am having a ton of fun out there anyway. People ask me often why I track an expensive car... I am certainly not super wealthy, this car is a substantial investment for me. But I always say... I just love driving the NSX. And the track is where I can drive it fast legaly. That's the main motivation, not the fact that I am seeking a pro racing career. Lol... I am not that young.

Perhaps I should try some different spring rates and tires and see how it all feels. I absolutely loved the improvement in feel on the track with the competitions. No more floaty feeling over crests, and I don't know if it was the non compliant stuff, the alignment or what but the car was super communicative. I felt very in control.
 
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Dave, I've been trying to hold my tongue for a while, but I hate seeing these types of posts from you. I feel so bad for your NSX. You do all these things to make her better, but you're never really satisfied. Its almost like you're building up the perfect girl but not bothering to ever bang her!!

To me sounds to me like you need to just drive your car more on the track man!! Plain & simple. Get more seat time! I'm sure BillyJ & Coz can attest that they're learning new things everytime they go out on the track, even if its the exact same car set up the exact same way. Understand what you have before you go and change everything again.

I mean it's pretty obvious that you haven't even figured out the nuances of the parts that you have enough to know what you can adjust without buying new parts. So your car pushes? Change the tire pressures! Soften the front dampening! Stiffen the rear dampening! Put the front stock sway bar back in! Adjust your alignment! Change out the front springs to softer ones.
The only way to truly understand your car and how to adjust it is to drive it. Learn it, love it, get used to how it handles and exploit it! Do more track events, get more instruction!

I'm not trying to be a meany here, but you have such a nice car that tons of people on this forum would die to have or even drive. I just don't think you've taken full advantage of the efforts that you've already put into her.

I want to see your next posts be in-car videos of you driving your car on tracks. Tons of tracks. Post those, so that we can all help you and make you a better driver and understand more how your car is doing on the track. That's your next mod... a GoPro (or two, or three), a Macbook to edit them, and an internet connection to put them online!

-King of Cheap Wheels & Tires OUT!! (sound of mic bouncing off the floor)
 
Adrian did you read my post? I told you I'm doing as many events as time allows. I can't just "do more". I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to find out what would make the car faster. Tons of guys do this all the time and they street race. My hobby is two fold. Me, and my car. Driving, and the car itself. I get some enjoyment out of building the car itself. And I'm not out there endangering the public. I am asking how I can drop my lap time on time trials on the track. That's both me and the car.

I've gotten a wealth of info on this thread. That's very helpful. It's what I like to learn and know. No one said I won't try a different sway bar or spring rate since I feel the car push. I was at my local track NHMS, and I don't want to make substantial changes until I am at a bigger track and feel that. I'm at WGI next month.

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Oh and I already am trying to install a complete camera system in the car. I will have some footage next month.
 
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What spring rates are you running ?

TURBO2GO said:
Perhaps I should try some different spring rates and tires and see how it all feels. I absolutely loved the improvement in feel on the track with the competitions. No more floaty feeling over crests, and I don't know if it was the non compliant stuff, the alignment or what but the car was super communicative. I felt very in control.
Click to expand...
 
1000 front 600 rear. Same as Comptech rates. Noodle type R front sway bar for now and 05 oem rear which is zanardi (changed in 2004). The ride at slow speeds is firm... the two reasons I haven't gone to a larger sway bar setup so far is 1) Other than Dali no one makes really thick ones and 2) I am hesitant to make a street driven car stiffer still. Yes I know how sway bars work... it still stiffens wheel rate if it is just one going over a bump.

I mean I don't feel much lean as is.... Maybe I am not going fast enough... I am still on street tires. I can't even press down on the car and get the suspension to move. LOL

Also, maybe you know this. I am not sure if the dampers need to be revalved for softer springs. Being these are the competitions I am not sure how different they are. The springs that came on them when I bought them were 1200 front and 900 rear. If you can believe that.
 
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