This all seems pretty odd IMO. If I REALLY want a specific car I'll get it REGARDLESS. People that cross shop generally don't really want any specific vehicle, and are just looking at utility or a bargain. The reality is cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc are toys, and feed purely on emotions.
What is going on with these dealerships...Honda lost a real customer
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I love economics and utility is the key word
if the utility of an NSX, R8, 570S and 911 turbo are similar, but the cost to obtain said utility in the case of the R8 is much lower, it becomes the most rational of these generally unrational choices
i am in your category #fan and generally get the one item I am looking for, but can understand a lot of folks make decisions differently than I do
looking forward to sound clips of the SV (if the Tasmanian devil cartoon was being done today, that would be it's sound)
if the utility of an NSX, R8, 570S and 911 turbo are similar, but the cost to obtain said utility in the case of the R8 is much lower, it becomes the most rational of these generally unrational choices
i am in your category #fan and generally get the one item I am looking for, but can understand a lot of folks make decisions differently than I do
looking forward to sound clips of the SV (if the Tasmanian devil cartoon was being done today, that would be it's sound)
Supercars are toys for sure, and some people have one brand or model that they religiously prefer. But if you're into supercars because of the performance, style, and experience, chances are that more than one of them could meet your desires.
Today, all of the cars in the supercar market are very, very good. They just offer different mixes of qualities at different prices. So if you're someone who likes the 911 Turbo you may also be open to the NSX and R8. If you typically buy Ferraris but are open-minded, you'd at least take a look at a McLaren. Then when you start looking at the price of the car, the ownership experience, the driving experience, etc. you may make your decision.
Cross shopping doesn't mean you're only bargain-hunting or glued to spec sheets. For some it just means that there is more than one car they could be happy with. In the past there were far fewer choices in the supercar segment but now there are a ton of them. The manufacturers and dealers need to learn how to court those brand-agnostic buyers if they don't want to be left out in the cold.
No, Espirit bought from the best price regardless. That's fine, it's just math at the end of the day, but don't complain that dealerships are bad when you do the same thing to a dealership that was courteous to you. I'm sure Espirit will be double/triple checking prices again with other dealers when it's time to buy for the wife.
Back to the restaurant analogy. I've been to plenty of expensive restaurants where the service took forever and they were still rude simply because of the way I or my date was dressed - the same as various dealerships. So people will be people no matter where you go. You pay the tab and you move on with life. But think about the math a second. If you spent about $100-$150 at a nice restaurant one time a month for some drinks and entrees that can be had for about $20 at the grocery store. 12x$120 =$1440. $1440 is the ~average MSRP mark-up over invoice for the average car. So that money you saved trying to haggle for invoice pricing is only going to get displaced at a night out each month and these are conservative numbers.
Whenever I travel abroad and dine out all of the time, the food is better, cheaper, and no tips are expected outside of the US usually. The US is the only place that pays servers below minimum wage and expect you to tip on top of the already premium food that is IMO sub-par in quality compared to places outside of the US. No one ever really complains about this, but they step into a dealership and cry if the next guy gets a discount on the same Ford Focus they just bought.
Back to the restaurant analogy. I've been to plenty of expensive restaurants where the service took forever and they were still rude simply because of the way I or my date was dressed - the same as various dealerships. So people will be people no matter where you go. You pay the tab and you move on with life. But think about the math a second. If you spent about $100-$150 at a nice restaurant one time a month for some drinks and entrees that can be had for about $20 at the grocery store. 12x$120 =$1440. $1440 is the ~average MSRP mark-up over invoice for the average car. So that money you saved trying to haggle for invoice pricing is only going to get displaced at a night out each month and these are conservative numbers.
Whenever I travel abroad and dine out all of the time, the food is better, cheaper, and no tips are expected outside of the US usually. The US is the only place that pays servers below minimum wage and expect you to tip on top of the already premium food that is IMO sub-par in quality compared to places outside of the US. No one ever really complains about this, but they step into a dealership and cry if the next guy gets a discount on the same Ford Focus they just bought.
When a Porsche dealer tosses you the keys to a new 991 TTS ($195K) and says have fun , take your time - what does that say?
The TT I wound up buying had couple hundred miles on it and now 13 months later 6,500 - it's been perfect. If you think you're going to be the first
to fart in the seat dream on.....
Pretty much the same scenario when I purchased my first NSX new in 1994. When I purchased it was the total package..... car & who I'm buying from.
The TT I wound up buying had couple hundred miles on it and now 13 months later 6,500 - it's been perfect. If you think you're going to be the first
to fart in the seat dream on.....
Pretty much the same scenario when I purchased my first NSX new in 1994. When I purchased it was the total package..... car & who I'm buying from.
Incorrect.. Steven's Creek did not have a non plus in either gray or silver... that was a big reason for not buying there. Didn't just buy for BEST DEAL EVER... If you want The BEST deal to be had on an R8 it is at either Atlanta Audi or the blue one at Prestige Audi in FL. I still don't understand how the money factor can be even lower at another dealership but Atlanta and Prestige did it and with a great MSRP discount just not my colors/options. I have referred friends to Steven's Creek, my wife's family, etc.. Not sure how much business it will drum up for them but lots of positive referrals might equal 1 hour of salesman time plus driving the R8 around the block. I probably put 1 mile "ish" on the odometer.... big deal... It's an Audi and very reliable.
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I'd agree with you if the pricing was close, but it sounds like it wasn't:
I don't know what deal Espirit9 ended up with but 2% off versus 11% off on a $175k car is a difference of $15000. That's a price difference that is hard to ignore. It's one thing when someone chooses another dealership because there's a 1% or less difference in price on a $175k car. But an almost 10% difference?
I don't disagree on choosing the best deal. People will buy from other dealers for savings of $200 for average cars. I'm just talking about the perception and venting about dealerships in general. It's a huge market out there. People are going to be people. The restaurant/bar and pharmacy business have much greater mark-ups for their products but people don't complain because they believe they "need it" to live.
The best point in this topic though is the test drive notion. Honda should have handled that better considering they have so many production-like "0000" VINs prototypes that were designed to take the abuse of test drives. They should take note for the next time they launch an expensive car that requires the attention the NSX does. I imagine 2018 models will be fine because there will be some leftover 2017 models that can be demoed by then. I would hope the dealers are keen enough to realize that the test drive will seal the deal.
That what it did for me when I bought my old 95 NSX with 16k miles. They pulled it out of the dealership, everyone, staff and customers were staring as they did it. I was only 21 years old at the time. They handed me the keys and said let me know what you think. I bought the car that day. Not all dealerships will discriminate based on age/appearance etc. but you just have to get lucky and find a decent one.
No matter what you say, you chose math and pragmatics over emotion. I'm not shunning your decision. I'm challenging you to question your perception. Because if those rude dealers had the best price at the end of the day, you probably would have bought from them.
I think the real story according to Espirit's posting here and elsewhere is Espirit wanted a base Nord Grey with steel brakes.
He didn't have the cash to buy one outright so he had to finance it, meaning bank loan or lease.
Acura dealers didn't want to use an allocation for a color only 1 % are buying for a buyer who has to get financing
If Espirit can't close the deal the dealership has a problem car to move.
Audi corporate and dealers are much more tuned in to this market segment, dealers are prepared to negotiate, and Audi corporate has an attractive lease option.
Honda hasn't caught up with the realities of the current NSX market so are not offering competitive lease deals.
Current unsold NSX's are heavily optioned in mainstream colors, dealers still think they can get premiums, and the prices are beyond Esprit's budget.
Espirit can't afford the current lease deal from Acura to allow an order to be placed for a Nord Grey with steel brakes, nor can he afford what's in showrooms across the land.
Espirit finds an affordable lease deal on an R8 and buys it.
Don't think this is all about Acura dealers not looking after a buyer well, although I'm not surprised some are not living in reality about this market segment.
I think this is about financing a new car and who is offering the best financial deal.
Nothing new about this, it goes on everyday.
However not sure a post painting a picture of a buyer abused and victimized by Acura dealers resulting in a lost sale reflects the facts.
This is more about a buyer saying he wanted a certain NSX, couldn't find a way to finance, and instead bought an R8 because it was affordable.
He didn't have the cash to buy one outright so he had to finance it, meaning bank loan or lease.
Acura dealers didn't want to use an allocation for a color only 1 % are buying for a buyer who has to get financing
If Espirit can't close the deal the dealership has a problem car to move.
Audi corporate and dealers are much more tuned in to this market segment, dealers are prepared to negotiate, and Audi corporate has an attractive lease option.
Honda hasn't caught up with the realities of the current NSX market so are not offering competitive lease deals.
Current unsold NSX's are heavily optioned in mainstream colors, dealers still think they can get premiums, and the prices are beyond Esprit's budget.
Espirit can't afford the current lease deal from Acura to allow an order to be placed for a Nord Grey with steel brakes, nor can he afford what's in showrooms across the land.
Espirit finds an affordable lease deal on an R8 and buys it.
Don't think this is all about Acura dealers not looking after a buyer well, although I'm not surprised some are not living in reality about this market segment.
I think this is about financing a new car and who is offering the best financial deal.
Nothing new about this, it goes on everyday.
However not sure a post painting a picture of a buyer abused and victimized by Acura dealers resulting in a lost sale reflects the facts.
This is more about a buyer saying he wanted a certain NSX, couldn't find a way to finance, and instead bought an R8 because it was affordable.
Very true.. I was acting on emotion and ready to put down the $$ for a Nord Grey but dealership wouldn't allow it. The price was $173K and monthly pay would be around $2500 with 40K down for a 6 year loan... Emotions battled common sense that day and won.. I then started thinking about pearl white but didn't like some other things about some folks on the showroom floor.
Then a test drive of a new R8 once again stirred those emotions and along with a much more affordable option, I pulled the trigger on an R8. I'm now in a different place with my feelings with Acura... it has to do with Honda Financial, some dealership treatment and awkwardness, and lack of a "full" experience of test drive (might have sold me on the Pearl White that day if I drove it... maybe..)..
But I agree.. It's a bit out of my reach at this time and now that my brain has an entirely new thinking/emotion around R8's... I might never go back... Who knows..
We read this thread with a lot of good input from various parties so wanted to chime in a few things:
a) 1st there are MANY current NSX owners who really wanted a ride (not even to drive) a new NSX at past NSXPO events and they could not sit in the car let alone drive it. It's not un-common for low volume high performance cars to allow no test drive. We've bought quite a few cars without a test drive.
b) But to play devil's advocate Acura really does need some "pool" of demo cars to let serious buyers drive the car. Our local Lambo and McLaren dealership practically rolls out the red carpet and INVITES us to test drive their newest, latest and greatest cars. They do not require your 1st born, deed or proof of finances. As long as you have developed a good relationship with them and they trust you, they will let you drive their most expensive cars. They understand that to sell you on the car, you MUST drive it. It's very hard to sell a dream you saw on a Youtube video.
c) We are also good friends with the Stevens Creek Audi manager/team. They are great guys and we get our R8's serviced there. It's too bad you had to buy elsewhere after getting a test drive from them but at the end of the day, it's all about the dollar.
d) Acura really needs to offer more attractive leases. Their lease numbers are horrible so that means the only buyers they will most likely get are cash or financing buyers. That is a very small pool in the Super Car world. Even McLaren realized this and teamed up with a bank to offer lease deals now.
To OP - congrats on the R8 it's a nice car too but I think if we had to pick between the R8 and new NSX, it would be the NSX
a) 1st there are MANY current NSX owners who really wanted a ride (not even to drive) a new NSX at past NSXPO events and they could not sit in the car let alone drive it. It's not un-common for low volume high performance cars to allow no test drive. We've bought quite a few cars without a test drive.
b) But to play devil's advocate Acura really does need some "pool" of demo cars to let serious buyers drive the car. Our local Lambo and McLaren dealership practically rolls out the red carpet and INVITES us to test drive their newest, latest and greatest cars. They do not require your 1st born, deed or proof of finances. As long as you have developed a good relationship with them and they trust you, they will let you drive their most expensive cars. They understand that to sell you on the car, you MUST drive it. It's very hard to sell a dream you saw on a Youtube video.
c) We are also good friends with the Stevens Creek Audi manager/team. They are great guys and we get our R8's serviced there. It's too bad you had to buy elsewhere after getting a test drive from them but at the end of the day, it's all about the dollar.
d) Acura really needs to offer more attractive leases. Their lease numbers are horrible so that means the only buyers they will most likely get are cash or financing buyers. That is a very small pool in the Super Car world. Even McLaren realized this and teamed up with a bank to offer lease deals now.
To OP - congrats on the R8 it's a nice car too but I think if we had to pick between the R8 and new NSX, it would be the NSX
Thanks EuroBoutique:
The NSX still stirs my soul just as it did when I bought my '05 and I would have purchased that Nord Grey if things were a bit different.
At my "older" age common sense plays out a bit different when faced with these emotions. Look... I LOVE Esprits.. Owned 3 Lotus Esprits and have posters, model cars and even flew to the Hethel Factory in England to take part in their tour/driving experience. BUT... Not sure if any of you have owned an Esprit... They are Tremendously Horrible to keep up, uncomfortable, loud, spent thousands on repairs, very unpractical... BUT when I see one I fall in love all over again... At my older age... the common sense/financial factor does play a part. Affordability coupled with the experience I had in that R8 changed my mind completely. I'll have to drive the NSX in the future and decide upon lease end if I'll stay with the R8 or go back to the world of NSX's..
The NSX still stirs my soul just as it did when I bought my '05 and I would have purchased that Nord Grey if things were a bit different.
At my "older" age common sense plays out a bit different when faced with these emotions. Look... I LOVE Esprits.. Owned 3 Lotus Esprits and have posters, model cars and even flew to the Hethel Factory in England to take part in their tour/driving experience. BUT... Not sure if any of you have owned an Esprit... They are Tremendously Horrible to keep up, uncomfortable, loud, spent thousands on repairs, very unpractical... BUT when I see one I fall in love all over again... At my older age... the common sense/financial factor does play a part. Affordability coupled with the experience I had in that R8 changed my mind completely. I'll have to drive the NSX in the future and decide upon lease end if I'll stay with the R8 or go back to the world of NSX's..
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At the end of the day it's always about making the best financial decisions so we can relate to your position. If Acura was able to offer a similar lease deal we predict the cars would be selling much better than the current situation.
In your example the two MF differed from 4% to 6% which is a sizable amount.
Did you deal with Enrique at Audi SC? He is a awesome guy and probably gave you the best deal he could. Hard to compete with out of state when overhead costs could be lower....
We are also a vendor and sponsor on R8talk so we love the R8's as well, if you ever have questions on the R8 let us know or visit our R8 section on our website. (www.euroboutique.us)
P.S. We love Nord Grey - it's similar to Suzuka Grey and Nardo Grey which are under-stated but very classy color combos in the Audi palette.
Does anyone know have the code name and section number for the California law in question about deposits being refundable? I looked for info about this on the web but haven't found anything definitive.
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The update
By the end of this week 507 US cars shipped
No cars have had to go back to the factory for crash repairs
The car busted up in Taiwan was supposed to be returned by the folks in Taiwan want to repair it locally
When a car does come back to Ohio for repairs, it will be torn down as needed in a separate room, run by a guy moving from Torrance to Ohio
The repairs will be done on the production line but after hours or on the week ends
Michael B Jordan received his car
He was getting a tour during production of his car
A pipe broke at the PMC the day his visit was scheduled for and flooded the guest area
The sample of the front bumper protective coating has not been received yet
No demo cars planned
The NSX Specialist did note the opportunity to drive on on the track in Vegas and I hope they get a lot of business
Acura is looking into opening up the track experience to non owners, but they will still have to pay to play
I mentioned the guy here who imported a car into Sweden and got no help from Honda in Sweden, and that was no surprise as they would treat the thing as gray market
They do not know the take rate of the steel brakes yet
Based on the numbers above, dealers will be starting to get their 3rd cars
No news on 2018 model changes or start dates
Regarding some mini videos not being up, not all of the videos have been loaded yet and thus some owners did not receive emails informing them of their video
Regarding the number of cars piling up at dealerships, some of these cars have 1000 miles and the dealer has been driving the car and saying you want this one, pay me this much, and other dealers have just been placing them on the floor for eye candy
No expectation of a lease deal coming
They will do some research on cost of an oil change, they will price out the consumables and they have a department that estimates the # of labor hours, then we will have to plug in local shop rates to get an estimate of what some of these maintenance visits will cost
By the end of this week 507 US cars shipped
No cars have had to go back to the factory for crash repairs
The car busted up in Taiwan was supposed to be returned by the folks in Taiwan want to repair it locally
When a car does come back to Ohio for repairs, it will be torn down as needed in a separate room, run by a guy moving from Torrance to Ohio
The repairs will be done on the production line but after hours or on the week ends
Michael B Jordan received his car
He was getting a tour during production of his car
A pipe broke at the PMC the day his visit was scheduled for and flooded the guest area
The sample of the front bumper protective coating has not been received yet
No demo cars planned
The NSX Specialist did note the opportunity to drive on on the track in Vegas and I hope they get a lot of business
Acura is looking into opening up the track experience to non owners, but they will still have to pay to play
I mentioned the guy here who imported a car into Sweden and got no help from Honda in Sweden, and that was no surprise as they would treat the thing as gray market
They do not know the take rate of the steel brakes yet
Based on the numbers above, dealers will be starting to get their 3rd cars
No news on 2018 model changes or start dates
Regarding some mini videos not being up, not all of the videos have been loaded yet and thus some owners did not receive emails informing them of their video
Regarding the number of cars piling up at dealerships, some of these cars have 1000 miles and the dealer has been driving the car and saying you want this one, pay me this much, and other dealers have just been placing them on the floor for eye candy
No expectation of a lease deal coming
They will do some research on cost of an oil change, they will price out the consumables and they have a department that estimates the # of labor hours, then we will have to plug in local shop rates to get an estimate of what some of these maintenance visits will cost
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Unless I hear it should be even longer from American Honda, I'm going with two full hours of labor for an oil change. Given the extra amount of care that must be used just to even get the car lifted, removing the gigantic undertray, draining 5 drain plugs, and getting through the access panel in the trunk for the filter. Oh, and washing it before and after as well. Plus it's about $100 in oil and the filter.
And no coupons either!
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Thanks Master
If it comes in around $500 that would be ok (I can't believe I just said that, oh for the days of my $12 oil change for the S2000)
If it comes in around $500 that would be ok (I can't believe I just said that, oh for the days of my $12 oil change for the S2000)
I've read you mentioning the car wash before but you never, ever want to let the dealer wash your car...
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Want to avoid it? Bring it into the dealer already clean.
If the NSX is dirty at all when it comes in, it has to be washed (by hand of course...no machine), otherwise the rather elaborate fender/bumper protector we drape over the rear of the car will grind the dirt into the paint.
The amount of apologisms, even attacks on OP in here is ridiculous. Really, a dealer shouldn't order the customer's desired color? Can't even allow buyer to sit in the car? Incredible.
All of these problems OP and others mention are typical of buying something unusually high dollar at a very, very, very average dealer. IMO these shortfalls are to be expected but they are still completely valid criticisms. With Nissan you know you're in for the low-end dealer experience, but with Acura it's a shock for those unfamiliar. If you go to Lexus, Audi, BMW, MB, you are far less likely to deal with these sort of gripes. You can still find fault with them, but the Acura dealer experience has a long, long way to go by comparison.
Congrats Esprit on your new R8!
All of these problems OP and others mention are typical of buying something unusually high dollar at a very, very, very average dealer. IMO these shortfalls are to be expected but they are still completely valid criticisms. With Nissan you know you're in for the low-end dealer experience, but with Acura it's a shock for those unfamiliar. If you go to Lexus, Audi, BMW, MB, you are far less likely to deal with these sort of gripes. You can still find fault with them, but the Acura dealer experience has a long, long way to go by comparison.
Congrats Esprit on your new R8!
Totally agree, I was at a dealership that had my $5,000 deposit and they had one on the showroom (and still do after over 7 months). I kindly asked my "NSX Specialist" to unlock the car so my wife could see the interior and he gave us a pretty bad look. Turning the other way he unlocked the car and my wife (not knowing because she wasn't told anything) went to seat in it just to be grabbed by the arm by the "Specialist".
The car is still there, $210k build if I remember correctly and $50k premium.
Do you think Honda or Acura are not aware of this attitude toward actual customers?
Wow!!!
Did this guy know you had a deposit in?
I don't understand that mentality at all. I can understand wanting to keep the delivery miles down, but really are they advertising these things as "only two butts have ever been in the seat?"
On the flipside McLaren will let you plop your ass in a 570, 650 all day, every day. Only time I've seen a car off-limits was a customer-owned car. They actually want to sell you a car I suppose.
We think part of the problem here is "Lack" of inventory to be used as demo models. The dealer mentality is we don't want to risk any scratches, crushed bolsters, crinkled leather for the actual customer who will own the car one day. You can't fault them for thinking this way since this is an expensive car. We've seen many car seats with under 500 miles have scratches from careless people who have sat inside the car. Jeans, jackets, zippers, even purse bags dragged across the leather can damage it. Maybe for dealerships the best solution is to keep the pre-delivery white seat covers on the car?
For experienced car guys, some still are careless in how they get into the car. We always lift and lower ourselves into a car seat so as not to crush the side bolsters but many people do not do this.
When we test drove the McLaren, they don't care so much because they have dedicated "demo" cars. If a car was sold those cars would be LOCKED so it's 100% normal. Lambo also has demo cars. Part of the problem here is a Lambo or other exotic dealer has a general expectation that people who go in there know what they are getting. With the Acura dealership, it's a hit or miss similar to Nissan.
However if you were to compare apples to apples, when Lexus had their LF-A in the showroom, you can bet it was locked and only select people can sit in the car. Same goes for the 918 an other exclusive cars.
Acura does have work to be done in the customer service area. But I think part of the fault comes from the training they receive. It's not them making the rules but the big boss. So you can't fault them for just obeying what they are being taught. It's a fine line between making exceptions and who gets to do what.
For experienced car guys, some still are careless in how they get into the car. We always lift and lower ourselves into a car seat so as not to crush the side bolsters but many people do not do this.
When we test drove the McLaren, they don't care so much because they have dedicated "demo" cars. If a car was sold those cars would be LOCKED so it's 100% normal. Lambo also has demo cars. Part of the problem here is a Lambo or other exotic dealer has a general expectation that people who go in there know what they are getting. With the Acura dealership, it's a hit or miss similar to Nissan.
However if you were to compare apples to apples, when Lexus had their LF-A in the showroom, you can bet it was locked and only select people can sit in the car. Same goes for the 918 an other exclusive cars.
Acura does have work to be done in the customer service area. But I think part of the fault comes from the training they receive. It's not them making the rules but the big boss. So you can't fault them for just obeying what they are being taught. It's a fine line between making exceptions and who gets to do what.
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