Vendor processing suggestion to mitigate risk of customers getting... screwed

[nsxotic911]

I suggest the following simple policy to be enforced by Lud for vendors, especially overseas vendors and/or those does not have a history with the NSXPRIME.

Rather than requiring the full amount for the cost of the product up front, the vendor should only take 10, 20, 25% max from the customer, and then do COD for the product.

This way, the motivations deminishes for the vendor to book it and screw us, increases motivation to complete the product fast so they get the rest of their money, and if the person refuses to pay for the product, the vendor keeps the deposit.

As an additional step, the vendor must specify when the product will be ready, and it should be within x days (such as 30 - 90 days) and if the delays is greater than x% (such as 10%) the vendor should refund the deposit.

The only way to fully enforce this is for Lud to enforce it and additionally an escrow account.... but this is a start.

This is a fair policy to both parties. Everyone wins. The vendor that says "Well, I don't have the money to pay the cost to produce the product and I need complete payment first.. should not be in business imho as the risk is too high for the consumer and the motivation too low not to screw the consumer" When customer are sending thousands and thousands of dollars with no recourse, I think that is ridicoulous. In many places in the world, you'll get your hand cut off just for stealing an apple while some of these guys are laughing all the way to the bank.

For my personal policy, if I deal with anyone overseas.... this is what I will demand, no exception.

 

[UnhuZ]

I agree with you....

and i even add that if someone want to sell something and don't have enough money to produce/buy the product, then something is wrong with the business..

if i ever sell anything to Primers (and i have a few custom projects thought out), by producing parts or sourcing them out elsewhere, i'll only ask for payment if i'll ship it the same day or next day...

just a thought::wink: :wink:
I'm from Portugal...so...i'm overseas from you... but don't forget....every US vendor is overseas from me and if i want something, i have to pay 100% of the cost up front...so a legit question is: why should the rules be different for US and non-US vendors???:wink:

the problem is that if we all were responsable, that we stuck to our word, nothing like this would needed...but...there are always smart-a$$ guys ready to screw the next one.

 

[nsxotic911]

I agree with you....

and i even add that if someone want to sell something and don't have enough money to produce/buy the product, then something is wrong with the business..

Agree

if i ever sell anything to Primers (and i have a few custom projects thought out), by producing parts or sourcing them out elsewhere, i'll only ask for payment if i'll ship it the same day or next day...

Kudos. Do you ship first, then get payment, do COD, or pay first, and then "ship" If you do the latter.. there is no way to enforce that you do ship..
just a thought::wink: :wink:
I'm from Portugal...so...i'm overseas from you... but don't forget....every US vendor is overseas from me and if i want something, i have to pay 100% of the cost up front...so a legit question is: why should the rules be different for US and non-US vendors???:wink:
With US vendors, us bad Americans have a legal recourses, overseas with SOL. As for the policy you have with US Vendors.. it's up to you, but if a US Vendor screws you, you still have more options to get your money back by making a big stint, getting somone to sew them on behalf .. making a complaint via BBB, to the local government etc...
the problem is that if we all were responsable, that we stuck to our word, nothing like this would needed...but...there are always smart-a$$ guys ready to screw the next one.

Ha! In a world that no longer believes in morality...this is a fact of life

 

[Big_D]

I hear what your saying, but Lud will never go for that. This forum wasn't meant to police people from getting fleeced by vendors. It is a means to exchange ideas and information about the NSX.

Vendors would probably just stop advertising on NSXPrime.

Stick with reputable vendors and don't fall for the cheap price by the unknown.

 

[SWIFTVISION]

COD? I would NEVER sell anything COD.

 

[RSO 34]

The only way to fully enforce this is for Lud to enforce it and additionally an escrow account.... but this is a start.

Lud will not, and should not, do this. Prime is more like a "hobby" that he started and it has grown larger than he ever could have anticipated, especially for such a low production vehicle. He does not make money from this site and to impose upon him financial and legal responsibilities is patently unfair.

Although I can empathize with anyone in the community getting ripped off (I, too, was a victim early in my Prime life), the vendors everyone is talking about are infamous and anyone still doing business with them does so at their own risk. The two "prime" (pun intended) offenders are Dali and Tamoske, both of whom have well know reputations that should dissuade any sensible buyer from risking their money.

Why should Lud try to guaranty the monies of people willing to send 100% of the purchase price of a "product" to a Lithuanian "vendor" with no business acumen, no manufacturing facilities, no bank account, no products yet made and against whom there is no legal recourse? Quite honestly, if someone wants to take that risk they should be on their own.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I agree that Lud shouldn't go so far as to get involved in the chain. I do think Lud/Prime should at least restrict or ban repeat offenders, though, as I've just suggested in my main forum post.

Why, when we know a vendor routinely screws people, do we keep seeing them advertising here with no impediment?

 

[DocL]

Why should Lud have any responsibility for the actions of people who wish to buy and sell through this web site. I only order parts from vendors who can communicate with me on a timely basis. Furthermore, my first order with any vendor is usually for an amount that is minimal that won't hurt my wallet. For example, I've bought items from Dali, SOS, Leatherseats.com, and yesterday from Synergy without any complications. I always use a credit card so I have recourse in case the vendor flakes out on me. When I see group buys posted by people from a country with a population less than New York City, there is no way I'm going to paypal them cash. I mean come on folks, have we lost all common sense??

 

[Aiken Drum]

I only order parts from vendors who can communicate with me on a timely basis.

That's great, until a vendor that has previously communicated on a timely basis suddenly starts to ignore you completely.

As you say, it's a good time to contact the credit card company, but on the other hand, there's no reason why people like that should be able to do the same thing over and over without Lud saying boo about it. Sure, he's not obliged, but dang, it'd be much appreciated. I'd sure do it in his place.

 

[DocL]

That's great, until a vendor that has previously communicated on a timely basis suddenly starts to ignore you completely...

If any vendor I deal with in my personal or professional life ever stopped returning my calls, rest assured they'll never get another dollar from me. This also applies to customer service. If I'm treated like dog$hit, I'll never spend my money or refer business to that retailer.

 

[UnhuZ]

Kudos. Do you ship first, then get payment, do COD, or pay first, and then "ship" If you do the latter.. there is no way to enforce that you do ship..

well... you're half right there :biggrin: :biggrin: if i receive money first, i may not ship after (you're right) ... if i ship first, i may not get paid after (i'm right)...it's a 50% odds....it's a risk... :wink:

what i can say is that i expect to be trusted....just because i never ever did, do or will do anything that lead anyone no to trust me....it's good to sleep peacefull at night... the truth and honesty is much more confortable than anything else....no skeletons on my closets...dam...not even a tiny little bone :tongue: :tongue:

With US vendors, us bad Americans have a legal recourses, overseas with SOL. As for the policy you have with US Vendors.. it's up to you, but if a US Vendor screws you, you still have more options to get your money back by making a big stint, getting somone to sew them on behalf .. making a complaint via BBB, to the local government etc...

i know that...i only brought it up as an example. In Portugal there is also a legal way for you americans to take legal action....portuguese FBI equivalent police (named "Policia Judiciaria") is hard and uber efficient.... there are police forces all over the world coming here to learn from them...

Ha! In a world that no longer believes in morality...this is a fact of life

yeap...i know that... but i can't help myself... in a relationship, either business or personal, i start by giving the other side 100% of my trust...and it is up to that other side to keep it at 100%...bad actions make it go down...when things get lower than a certain level...the other side walks and life goes on....

with this i mean...i never give reasons not to trust me...but i also give others plenty of rope...its up to them how they use it..to hang themselfs before me, or use it to keep the relationship strong.

well.... one more utopic portuguese thought of mine :biggrin: :biggrin:

PS - can someone explain to me what are the red acronims above ??? (my english isn't THAT good eaheahae)

 

[DocL]

...PS - can someone explain to me what are the red acronims above ??? (my english isn't THAT good eaheahae)

COD = Cash On Delivery. This is a method of shipping where UPS will not leave the package until they collect the cash when they drop it off. I usually open and inspect the package with the delivery person watching, and if everything checks out okay I hand over the cash.

 

[UnhuZ]

Thanks :wink: :wink:

COD = Cash On Delivery. This is a method of shipping where UPS will not leave the package until they collect the cash when they drop it off. I usually open and inspect the package with the delivery person watching, and if everything checks out okay I hand over the cash.

 

[CKS Papa]

PS - can someone explain to me what are the red acronims above ??? (my english isn't THAT good eaheahae)

SOL = Sh*t Out of Luck.

 

[Ojas]

Why, when we know a vendor routinely screws people, do we keep seeing them advertising here with no impediment?

I truly do feel bad about your deal. However, to me, a more relevant question would be:

Why, when we know a vendor routinely screws people, do we keep sending money to the vendor and act surprised when we eventually get screwed ourselves?

I have never understood why folks continue to support a vendor with a reputation of ripping off fellow NSX enthusiasts*. To <strike>save</strike> <i>possibly save</i> a few bucks?!

Even if one ran the stats and concluded the potential cost savings more than made up for the risk of not receiving items, there's another element here... The list of victims includes folks I personally respect like Ponyboy, SaberX, Russ, MarkB, RSO 34, among others. From my point of view, it's practically an insult to these guys if I were to deal with the vendor who ripped them off. Afterall, it's not like any given vendor has a monopoly on oil filters, springs, or exhausts... There are probably more options out there now than there has ever been. We all choose who we deal with.

Besides, ultimately, there are only two parties here: buyer and seller. NSX Prime is just a communication medium. Excluding the instance where there is a clear violation of the rules, I certainly wouldn't expect NSX Prime to come into play here.





* BTW: Even more boggling to my simple mind is why buyers would continue to support a vendor even after being ripped off themselves!

 

[Azuma]

* BTW: Even more boggling to my simple mind is why buyers would continue to support a vendor even after being ripped off themselves!

Absolutely agree on this. If you are ripped off once, its common sense to stay away especially if people are repeatedly complaining about the service level. I have been reading on NSXPrime all day today. With no personal offense to Tamoske, he got the most repeated word Tamoske on this forum for good or bad. Actually, I read so much about Tamoske that I felt forced to introduce myself and what we do and how far we go for our customers to make them happy. I handle agent services from Japan for yahoo japan auctions, Japanese car auctions and just about every website that has contact info for selling stuff. We mostly handle car parts from your small shift knobs to engines and bumpers.

 

[GlowNSX]

I dont think that Lud should have any responsibility for vendors on thsi site. He simply provides a forum for which we can interact.

Typically with importing the general rule is:

30% down
balance is due (70%) upon receipt of a copy of the bill of lading (which means the shipment has been made).
Once the final payment has been made (paid in full) the original bill of lading should be surrendered to the freight forwarder.

 

[Azuma]

Typically with importing the general rule is:

30% down
balance is due (70%) upon receipt of a copy of the bill of lading (which means the shipment has been made).
Once the final payment has been made (paid in full) the original bill of lading should be surrendered to the freight forwarder.

Your typical USPS, EMS or other post office shipments do not require a BL for clearance. BL is required when you need a shipping/freight company for larger shipments. The beauty of BL clearance is that the recipient cannot clear the items from the customs before he pays the sender. Its very simple and is mostly used by business to business. I dont think an individual buyer for personal consumption would want to go through the customs clearance agents and all the paper work, not to mention that amount of fixed costs involved with smaller shipments. Freight companies are usually not worth the effort and $$ unless you are shipping quite a bit. PLUS freight companies are notorious for over charging. If you dont know the right company, you probably will end up with some surprising freight bills.

 

[nsxotic911]

I dont think that Lud should have any responsibility for vendors on thsi site. He simply provides a forum for which we can interact.

Typically with importing the general rule is:

30% down
balance is due (70%) upon receipt of a copy of the bill of lading (which means the shipment has been made).
Once the final payment has been made (paid in full) the original bill of lading should be surrendered to the freight forwarder.

He doesn't need to bear the responsibility. He just needs to tell (at least) overseas vendors that this is what they must do and if not, take their business/fraud elsewhere.

This process is very lightweight and would work. Lud, can you do this for us?

The typical reply/argument that "this is a public/private forum where people can exchange ideas" and thus I can wipe my hands clean like Pntius Pilate.. does not work...

If I open my living room for anyone to hang out and discuss "XYZ topics", and someone deals drugs, commits fraud, gets rapped or gets shot and I look the other way and say/do nothing, I can guarantee you the police are not going to say "good job for not interfering and respecting people so they can be adults..."

Instead, I would likely be charged with a number of crimes not excluding being an accomplice to a crime....I'm not suggesting that Lud is an accomplice to fraud b/c people have gotten ripped offf.. but there is at least some responsibility that any individual must take when they are an organizer of sorts...

Although Prime vendors might not physically rape members, committing fraud in the thousands of dollars is financial rape... It has happened before/is happening, and will continue to happen unless some real steps are taken to mitigate the chance in the future.

 

[RSO 34]

He doesn't need to bear the responsibility. He just needs to tell (at least) overseas vendors that this is what they must do and if not, take their business/fraud elsewhere.

This process is very lightweight and would work. Lud, can you do this for us?

The typical reply/argument that "this is a public/private forum where people can exchange ideas" and thus I can wipe my hands clean.. does not work...

If I open my living room for anyone to hang out and discuss "XYZ topics", and someone deals drugs, commits fraud, gets rapped or gets shot and I look the other way and say/do nothing, I can guarantee you the police are not going to say "good job for not interfering and respecting people so they can be adults..."

Instead, I would likely be charged with a number of crimes not excluding being an accomplice to a crime....This is some responsibility that an individual must take in any field when they are an organizer.

Although Prime vendors might not physically rape members, committing fraud in the thousands of dollars is financial rape... It has happened before/is happening, and will continue to happen unless some real action is taken care of.

Not even close to being a fair comparison. Look at all of the fraud on Ebay and it has no liability despite charging fees for using that service. The same is true with free sites such as Craigslist where fraud happens all the time and the "owners" of that site have no responsibility for same.

Prime is free to all users and Lud has no legal responsibility for the transactions in which members voluntarily choose to engage. The marketplace should be able to police itself if members would use some common sense before sending money. Nothing would prevent a first time buyer/seller from having a bad transaction but multiple repeat offenders like Dali and Tamoske have very public negative histories and yet people insist upon using them. In addition to Lud having no legal responsibility to protect people from their own stubborn ignorance, he has no moral responsibility simply because he started Prime.

Caveat emptor is the rule.

 

[nsxotic911]

I'm not asking for Prime to take financial responsibility for deals gone bad. I am only suggesting that a policy be set where a vendor can take upto xx% as deposit and payment upon shippging for the rest, for international vendors only. If "it's left up the individuals" to set that kind of arrangement, it won't work, b/c the vendor will say "too bad.. " and take full payment from the other 15 guys that signed up... If it's made a requirement, everyone wins as per my first post...

As far as Ebay, Ebay should take measures, steps and responsibility because they are taking money but that's not something I can influence.

Craiglist is free, and common sense is not to do business with "desperate Nigerians" that want to send you a check.... Local transaction risk management is upto the individual. With Prime, you can't see the person you're dealing with that is in Lithuania, Japan, Romania, Neverland, or Chucke Cheese.

PS: Does Prime collect any payment for vendors posting.....? Probably not.. but just checking.

 

[RSO 34]

I'm not asking for Prime to take financial responsibility for deals gone bad. I am only suggesting that a policy be set where a vendor can take upto xx% as deposit and payment upon shippging for the rest, for international vendors only. If "it's left up the individuals" to set that kind of arrangement, it won't work, b/c the vendor will say "too bad.. " and take full payment from the other 15 guys that signed up... If it's made a requirement, everyone wins as per my first post....

The buyers can set that policy themselves if they insist upon it. A vendor will not be able to do a group buy if the members of the group don't agree to the terms. No one even tried to ask Tamoske if he would accept partial payment up front for products that were not even in production as of the time the group buy was put together. Why should Lud step in to protect buyers who have made no efforts to protect themselves?

As far as Ebay, Ebay should take measures, steps and responsibility because they are taking money but that's not something I can influence..

I agree with respect to Ebay. I would never attempt a car purchase/sale through Ebay because they make a considerable amount of money from that site with no policing other than taking down ads reported to them by others rather than being pro-active in review ads before accepting them. There is no reason Ebay can't flag all of the "buy it now $8000 NSX" auctions rather than wait for the public to complain about them.

Craiglist is free, and common sense is not to do business with "desperate Nigerians" that want to send you a check.... Local transaction risk management is upto the individual. With Prime, you can't see the person you're dealing with that is in Lithuania, Japan, Romania, Neverland, or Chucke Cheese..

What is the difference in the common sense expected of Craigslist members with respect to the Nigerian scams and doing business with Tamoske in Lithuania when he does not accept paypal or credit cards, uses the bank account of someone else for receiving the group buy monies, has no manufacturing plant, hires illegal/untrained/incompetent laborers to fabricate something in a garage and is beyond the jurisdiction of American courts? You cannot shift the responsibility of "enforcing common sense" to a site provider when members choose to enter into transactions blindly with a foreign "vendor", especially when that vendor proved to be problematic with his earlier group buys.

PS: Does Prime collect any payment for vendors posting.....? Probably not.. but just checking.

No, Prime receives no monies other than what members choose to donate and advertisers contribute with banner ads. You may notice that neither Dali nor Tamoske has ever contributed a dime to this site despite using its free services to "do business" here.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

As a tiny vendor myself, I would suggest that if you are buying something from a vendor, ask other regarded Prime members if they know the person. In may case, I have several Prime members that know me personally throughout the midwest. (Elite, Vrooom, NSX30, Ken Sax, Chuck from CGI, John Vasos of AOB, Kip Olson, Shad, etc etc) I go out into the community nationwide, and show my face. I race my personal NSX to make sure parts work, I have show car customers etc as well. I am constantly posting helpfull insight to newbie owners with wheel questions, or racing/performance questions etc.

I guess I would suggest buying from people who have a real passion for the NSX (someone who actually owns one helps!) Also do these people contribute to the community? Do they publicly answer gripes here on Prime, or do they just stay silent, and hidden? Granted, vendors can't always be perfect. Many times products have shipping delays etc. The difference is do the vendors make things right? Or just screw people over and dissappear?

Do some research in the regional forum of the Vendors location. Example. I am in WI. You could post "does anyone know about RP Motorsports?" And you will get a response, Yes I know where he lives! :biggrin:

I would hope that if something is not right that I did to another NSX owner, that my local NSX'rs would smack me aside the head!

Before you buy from a poster here on prime, ask around to make sure they are legit. It also helps if some long-time Prime members actually know where they live/work etc, in case an issue comes up.

Ok mod away!

Tom

 

[docjohn]

Tom we hear ya but at least one vendor (dali) passes 99% of your criterior and has his share of respectable members dazed confused and befudled.:frown: I can't agree with RSO more, the sole responsibility lies with each of us.

 

[RPM217]

Just a casual observation, did anybody besides me notice that most of the people asking Lud for extra police work/protection are registered users and not contributors to Prime. Not that contributing $$$ gives you any more rights than anyone else, but still for a site that you get so much from, it wouldn't hurt you to be a contributor in more than the "written" sense. Many people don't realize the work and expense that Lud puts into this place, and I didn't realize until someone brought it to my attention that I could contribute monetarily to help defray some of the expenses here. Sooooo "Man Up" and stop complaining that you sent money to a bum on the other side of the world who has no product, no workers, no positive history of dealing with others and move on.