Unofficial Thread - How Honda Failed NSX & Vice Versa

[randomharmony]

For me it was being able to see the NSX project as a whole after 2005, understanding their philosophy from the beginning and the utter failure of Honda to give us NSX lovers anything including an HSC on time. Now all we have are vague statements from Honda, no news and front-engined RL-mutants to look forward to.

I had to suffer through countless articles in just about every publication on Earth dogging the NSX as a poser because there it was against all the big boys and constantly failing to measure up. When you keep producing a car you keep getting tested, especially when the debut of your car was a big F-you to every exotic car out there (the most ruthless, aggressive class.) The car world kept expecting a competitive NSX based on it's initial philosophy and didn't get it.

As for me, I'm looking forward to the real NSX replacement. What I'm interested in is Honda's inital philosophy and hope they raise the bar again.

The bottom line is this: Honda raised the bar, yes, but then the bar was raised on them. Many times. By virtue of continuing to produce the NSX instead of limiting it's run it made itself a target. Yes, nealry each year the NSX changed but each change went as an unnoticed band-aid.

Am I proud of the NSXs competitiveness over it's lifespan? You bet. It's nothing short of amazing. We're not talking about how great the NSX was. We all know that. But that doesn't excuse Honda over the last 10 years. All it does is make me marvel at Honda's work from 1986-1991. You're trying to say that the NSX was a limited production that lasted 15 years! I don't buy that from you or Honda.

Graham,

i think we both agree that Honda's pattern is overachieved in developing and launching a new product (nsx, s2000, GSR), but under-performed in refining and updating it.

that being said, it is not to take anything away from us enjoying our nsx.

 

[tcomegna]

eddie that pic is legendary, hopefully i can take a picture of my X beside another high caliber car in which i own as well.
Anyway just thought i would share that.

Tom

 

[NSXGMS]

Graham,

i think we both agree that Honda's pattern is overachieved in developing and launching a new product (nsx, s2000, GSR), but under-performed in refining and updating it.

that being said, it is not to take anything away from us enjoying our nsx.

Yep, that's what it pretty much boils down to. As I said, upgrade properly or don't upgrade at all. That's what Honda did with the S2000 and I respect them for that. I still would like to see a Type-R S2000...:smile:

 

[MoreRPMs]

Yep, that's what it pretty much boils down to. At least Honda is doing away with the S2000 before it starts getting knocked around too much. Honda can hold it's head high and the S2000 will always be looked at favorably. It was it's time.

I must've missed Honda's announcement that the S2000 has/will cease production...

 

[NSXGMS]

I must've missed Honda's announcement that the S2000 has/will cease production...

Don't know what I was thinking... Post edited.

 

[MoreRPMs]

Don't know what I was thinking... Post edited.

Maybe you were wishful-thinking that they'd redesign the car with a 2.8 liter inline 6, keeping the original 9000 redline, lighter curb weight, while coming in under 40 big ones loaded. That's what you were thinking, right? :biggrin:

 

[BD]

:biggrin:

Hey Vance,

Do you still have any body parts left? lol =p

With all the goodies and aftermarket parts for the NSX. The car can still be competitive with Turbos, SC, and for people like Jon Martin and with the assistance of AEM for developing the 3.3L-3.8L stroker motor.....ironic that some NSX/Owner enthusiast had to do what Honda should have done.

Just the OEM red seats Want them? $$$$ is accepted.:biggrin:

 

[NSXGMS]

Maybe you were wishful-thinking that they'd redesign the car with a 2.8 liter inline 6, keeping the original 9000 redline, lighter curb weight, while coming in under 40 big ones loaded. That's what you were thinking, right? :biggrin:

Yes. :wink:

 

[BD]

Yes. :wink:

Something similar... R32 GT-R...:biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

Could one of our east Asian members comment on how the NSX, in recent years, has been viewed in Japan? My *guess* is that the reason NSX-R didn't make it to the U.S. is because the NSX has been viewed as a weak sportscar in the States since the late 90s.

 

[kye]

I lived in Japan for 8 years and owned 2 NSX's while I was there, I can say that the NSX is much loved and revered in Japan. Now that the NSX is discontinued the prices are going sky high (I regret selling mine now before I left). As for the NSX-R I can't really be sure why it was not offered overseas apart from a very brief period when it was officially available in the UK, maybe due to the price ?

Honda Japan also offers other cars that are not available elsewhere such as the new Integra-R (RSX) and also the S2000 with the VGS (I also owned one of these and they are excellent, no idea why the VGS wouldnt be offered outside of Japan). The Integra R is fantastic - it should be for sale everywhere..

Back to the NSX. There are clubs all over Japan for the NSX with regular meets and get togethers as there is here and of course the once a year NSX Fiesta which Honda puts on at mostly Suzuka but sometimes also Motegi (less frequent). Most Japanese owners DO NOT modify engines on their cars, preferring to leave them pretty much stock, they will change the shocks/springs etc but on the whole they leave as god intended.

 

[Ski_Banker]

I lived in Japan for 8 years and owned 2 NSX's while I was there, I can say that the NSX is much loved and revered in Japan. Now that the NSX is discontinued the prices are going sky high (I regret selling mine now before I left). As for the NSX-R I can't really be sure why it was not offered overseas apart from a very brief period when it was officially available in the UK, maybe due to the price ?

Honda Japan also offers other cars that are not available elsewhere such as the new Integra-R (RSX) and also the S2000 with the VGS (I also owned one of these and they are excellent, no idea why the VGS wouldnt be offered outside of Japan). The Integra R is fantastic - it should be for sale everywhere..

Back to the NSX. There are clubs all over Japan for the NSX with regular meets and get togethers as there is here and of course the once a year NSX Fiesta which Honda puts on at mostly Suzuka but sometimes also Motegi (less frequent). Most Japanese owners DO NOT modify engines on their cars, preferring to leave them pretty much stock, they will change the shocks/springs etc but on the whole they leave as god intended.

Interesting...thanks. Maybe the title of the thread should really be:

"How U.S. consumers failed the NSX"

The Japanese must think we're all a bunch of brand-following idiots.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Could one of our east Asian members comment on how the NSX, in recent years, has been viewed in Japan? My *guess* is that the reason NSX-R didn't make it to the U.S. is because the NSX has been viewed as a weak sportscar in the States since the late 90s.

And to add to this point: Introducing the NSX-R here would be (unfairly) mocked in the States, I think, since from a marketing perspective - it's not very different from the basic NSX. Now, if Honda, in '97 and '02 had changed the body a little more and called each version an entirely new vehicle, it would have sold. Stupid consumers and trade mags.

 

[TC]

Interesting...thanks. Maybe the title of the thread should really be:

"How U.S. consumers failed the NSX"

The Japanese must think we're all a bunch of brand-following idiots.

US consumers bought a little bit less than 50% of all NSX's made; Japanese consumers about 40% and the rest of the world (including EU) the remaining 10-12%. By comparison, the US market represents about 40% of Ferrari's annual sales.

Face the facts, the NSX didn't sell well in post 1995 due to Honda's failures to improve the car, not because us dumb Americans didn't recognize a good thing. NSX sales in Japan fell from 3,849 in 1991 to 176 in 1996. Did the Japanese buyers also become "brand-following idiots"?

 

[TC]

And to add to this point: Introducing the NSX-R here would be (unfairly) mocked in the States, I think, since from a marketing perspective - it's not very different from the basic NSX. Now, if Honda, in '97 and '02 had changed the body a little more and called each version an entirely new vehicle, it would have sold. Stupid consumers and trade mags.

People on these forums mock the Z06 for having cheap vinyl; overlooking 500 HP, carbon fiber body panels, 24 piston brake calibers, dry-sump oiling system, hand-assembled engine, etc. Sure, the interior and build quality of the Z06 should be better given its $65k price, that is a fair criticism. The NSX should have more than 280 HP given its $90K price. That is also a fair criticism.

In every other product category, Honda (like every Japanese company, and now most companies around the world) subsrcibe to the notion that "... the best [insert product name here] is yet to be built." I just don't understand why Honda never applied that thinking to the NSX

 

[TC]

Sound applicable?

Sometime next week, the assembly line at a Honda plant near Toguchi will come to a halt, signaling the end of a sports car so revolutionary that its 1991 debut changed forever the way sports cars look, feel and drive.
Say goodbye to the NSX.

After 16 years and sales of nearly 19,000 cars, Honda is giving up on what some call the most influential automobile since Henry Ford's Model T.

To many, the NSX's death was slow and painful as Honda in recent years abandoned the car, focusing instead on high-profit trucks and sport utility vehicles.

"When that thing came out, it was a big deal," said Robert Thompson, professor of popular culture at Syracuse University. "It so much became kind of the template of what a modern exotic car was going to look like."

The NSX, so futuristic that critics called it "the best car ever made," made its debut late in 1990. It was an immediate hit, with buyers snapping up more than 5,000 units in 1991, its first full year on the market.

The car's sales remained strong until it got a makeover in 1996. Although the second version sold well, it never matched the original's numbers.

In the late 1990s, the NSX became symptomatic of Honda's current direction. The company focused on high-profit trucks and sport utility vehicles, leaving the car almost unchanged for 10 years with little advertising support. In the meantime, competitors had copied the NSX and refined their models.

"It didn't keep pace. That's the whole story in four words," said Pitcoff.

"They put no money into that product for the last several years," Telnack said of the NSX. "They just let it wither on the vine. It's criminal. The car had a great reputation, a good name. I don't understand what they were waiting for."

The lack of attention to the NSX has angered workers at the assembly plant in Toguchi, Japan.

Ray Daniels, a 33-year company veteran, blamed Honda for not updating the NSX and keeping the name.

"If they'd kept the name, we'd still be here," he said.

Mark Fields, Honda's president of the Americas, said he, too, can't understand how the company strayed so far from the NSX.

When the lights go out on the last NSX in Toguchi next week, there won't be any ceremony.

"It's not a reason for celebration," said plant manager Dale Wishnousky. "There will certainly be tears shed. There's already been tears shed."

This is a real article - I just changed the words in bold. See the original at:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15338425/

 

[randomharmony]

lol:biggrin: :biggrin:

i am sure Dale is surprised to find out that his tears went to the wrong car, after all these years.:wink:

:biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

People on these forums mock the Z06 for having cheap vinyl; overlooking 500 HP, carbon fiber body panels, 24 piston brake calibers, dry-sump oiling system, hand-assembled engine, etc. Sure, the interior and build quality of the Z06 should be better given its $65k price, that is a fair criticism. The NSX should have more than 280 HP given its $90K price. That is also a fair criticism.

In every other product category, Honda (like every Japanese company, and now most companies around the world) subsrcibe to the notion that "... the best [insert product name here] is yet to be built." I just don't understand why Honda never applied that thinking to the NSX

You make a good point, if percentage-wise, the NSX didn't sell any worse in the U.S than in Japan after 97 or whenever. Much smaller market, but nevertheless... I still think the 02 NSX-R didn't make it to the States because it would have been mocked here, unfairly. I also don't think that any comparison to the latest Z06 is fair, simply because that is a new car and frankly is a heck of a value. Take the 1999 NSX, for example... competitors? F355 for almost 2x the cost. 911 for same cost. The U.S. consumer still failed the NSX in the later years.

 

[TC]

You make a good point, if percentage-wise, the NSX didn't sell any worse in the U.S than in Japan after 97 or whenever. Much smaller market, but nevertheless... I still think the 02 NSX-R didn't make it to the States because it would have been mocked here, unfairly. I also don't think that any comparison to the latest Z06 is fair, simply because that is a new car and frankly is a heck of a value. Take the 1999 NSX, for example... competitors? F355 for almost 2x the cost. 911 for same cost. The U.S. consumer still failed the NSX in the later years.

The year over year sales decline of the NSX is practically equal between the US and Japan, so I don't think you can blame US buyers for failing the car. Ferrari would be toast today if it kept the 348 on the market until 2005. Instead, this is coming to the market next year:

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/11944/spied-2007-ferrari-f430-challenge-stradale.html

As for the NSX-R, I think the lack of sales success with the Zanardi in 1999 was probably the key. It took a year to sell 50 Zanardi's so Honda probably used that as a gauge of likely NSX-R sales - probably an upper bookend at that.

As I pointed out in a previous post, automatic and manumatic transmissions account for 30-50% of sales for Ferrari and Porsche. In the case of 360 & 430, the F1 transmission accounts for 80% of sales. So, Honda basically gave up the entire market for automatic/manumatic transmissions - who would spend $90k for a 4-speed and a detuned 250 hp engine? That's fair game for mockery, IMO. As is 280 hp in a $90k car (and the NSX-R would have likely been more expensive).

 

[NSXGMS]

And to add to this point: Introducing the NSX-R here would be (unfairly) mocked in the States, I think, since from a marketing perspective - it's not very different from the basic NSX. Now, if Honda, in '97 and '02 had changed the body a little more and called each version an entirely new vehicle, it would have sold. Stupid consumers and trade mags.

I agree with that. I'm not sure how much impact changing the name would have had but it would have sold more cars in the US.

I cannot subscribe to the "perfection" argument because you can't have it both ways. One can't be a sales force while keeping a model on life support virtually unchanged. Again, what do you think would happen to the Ford GT sales if it continued for another 7 years unchanged?

As I posted before the 97 updates should have coincided with the T in 1995, the body should have been changed in 97 and the NSX should have been drastically redesigned for 2002 (HSC :wink: )

And yes, HP is a selling point, at least here in the US. The Japanese love their own cars and as such have less influence from cars that broke the 300 HP rule. The NSX stayed competitive longer there with 290 HP.

 

[kye]

I think that the main reason the NSX suffered over the years was more badge snobbery than anything else, in the UK there were many times that TV presenters talked about paying that much for a "Honda". When the new NSX comes out it will coincide with a worldwide launch of the Acura brand I think, this will help sales and also remove some of the snobbery much like Lexus did for Toyota.

BTW, I saw on the web at MACS NSX sales in Tokyo recently a 2004 NSX-R at 15,000,000 yen .... or $127,000 they were 12,500,000 new so I dont think at that price many would have sold at all anywhere outside of Japan where the NSX is king of Japanese cars (still). //Kye

 

[hofffam]

I'm a little late to this thread. I drove an NSX (not mine) for the first time in 1991, shortly after they came out. I was driving an RX-7 at the time. I also had a Honda V4 motorcyle with a 10k redline. The NSX was a mind-expanding experience. The dual personality of docile daily driver + 8000 rpm + unbelievable handling and stability. I've watched the NSX ever since - and I now own one (a 97).

I consider it a shame that Honda didn't do more to keep the car competitive - but it hasn't changed my desire to own one. The great combination of things that Honda built in 1991 hasn't really been matched (comfort, quality, performance, etc.) in my view. Fcars are faster, but 2x the price. Z06 is much faster at less cost, and better built than before, but common. The Cayman is an especially good comparison since it has similar performance and a comparable price.

I think Honda's facelift in 2002 was half hearted. I think the car got uglier and certainly didn't get meaningfully "better." Honda probably said "lets take one more shot at an update to see if we can improve sales before we kill it." It seems like the passion that originally drove development of the car was gone.

I am comfortable though knowing that my NSX is rare, beautiful, very fast (if not the fastest), driveable every day, and likely to be on the road ten years from now.

My prescription for an updated NSX (I would keep the name):

- state of the art 350+ hp motor
- state of the art automatic transmission
- way updated electronics (audio, navigation)
- NO ADDITIONAL weight
- more elegance and style in the interior (wood or carbon fiber, etc.)

I disagree that the NSX looks are dated. Maybe to Fcar or Pcar owners who are used to changes in their brand every 4-5 years. Everyone I know thinks the NSX is a beautiful car (but I don't know any Fcar owners). A few disparage it because it's a Honda but I don't care.