Track Rant

V

VBNSX

Experienced Member
Joined
2 July 2003
Messages
1,436
Location
Virginia Beach
So I was the local auto-x today.... and this guy I was talkin to ran in the Honda Challenge. I told him that yeah maybe in awhile I'll probably run in it. Then I clarified that I wouldn't race my nsx in it. I'd probably run a integra or something in it just b/c I like my nsx too much. Then he comes back with.. "Yeah the nsx is a nice car and all but i mean it's heavy and probably wouldn't be too competitive in H1 anyways."

All I could think of in my mind is wtf? I mean cmon.. they limit what we can do to the nsx in the honda challenge anyways. Someone please bring me back to reality.. there can't be any validity to what this guy is sayin right?

-x-
 
I asked a HC competitor about this very topic the other day and he responded by saying the NSX would indeed be competitive (but would toast it's brakes in a long race). IIRC, there's an NSX competing in HC on the west coast. I wish HC would develop a class for NSX owners that want to run more than just a "stock" vehicle.
 
But why should this be a question? I mean I thought our cars were designed with the intention of the track. If not then what's the purpose?

I just thought (for lack of better wording) the nsx would be dominant in comparison. Maybe I haven't been tracking enough but really.... what's goin on here?

-x-
 
What's going on is that eg hatchs and CRX's are having 200+hp engines powering their 1900lb pound cars. So the NSX would be competing with cars that may brake better, handle better, and have a better power to weight ratio. The NSX is a great track car but not certainly not unbeatable.
 
Ponyboy said:
...would toast it's brakes in a long race...
Click to expand...
I recently replaced my brakes (Brembo Indy's). The Pads that came w/ the brake kit were ok. They stopped well, wore ok (3 track days and 50% of pads), didn't make much noise after break-in.

This weekend with a set of replacement pads (Porterfield hot-street) at Hallett, I toasted the pads after only ~160 mins of track time. To top it all off, they didn't grip worth a damn. It seems that the more I drive the faster I eat pads.
 
Ponyboy said:
What's going on is that eg hatchs and CRX's are having 200+hp engines powering their 1900lb pound cars. So the NSX would be competing with cars that may brake better, handle better, and have a better power to weight ratio. The NSX is a great track car but not certainly not unbeatable.
Click to expand...

I guess it's only b/c of the fact that they limit the nsx also. The restrictions on the nsx are rather interesting. Weight, no standalone ems, no valve cutting, ..... whereas hybrids are allowed any weight... full proggies.. etc.. I guess I could see it.... but only b/c they hold us down like that.. :p ;)

-x-
 
Brake Pads

mark:
What track were you at?
The layout of the road course plays an important role in brake wear. Tracks with longer straights create higher speeds which in turn create the need for more braking power.Summit Point is a perfect example. Turn one comes at the end of 3700 foot straight you're braking from 140 mph to 40mph so you can turn into one. If you have new pads no problem, if your pads are worn a bit that turn will accelerate the wear of the remaining material on the pads. Tracks like Watkins Glen with multiple elevation changes will cause less brake wear . Turns 1, 5, 6 and 8 by their very nature cause more pad wear.Turns 7 and 9 cause less pad wear because they are up hill and far less braking is required.
Call Andie Lin at Cobalt he can advise you on the type pad you should be using(877-562-9237).
Remember the faster you go the quicker your consumable are used.
 
MarkB said:
This weekend with a set of replacement pads (Porterfield hot-street) at Hallett, I toasted the pads after only ~160 mins of track time. To top it all off, they didn't grip worth a damn. It seems that the more I drive the faster I eat pads.
Click to expand...
Mark,

Which Porterfield pads were you using? If you were using the R4S pads - the ones I would describe as "hot-street" - they are really inadequate for track use. I have a set where they got hot and the backing plate bent around the piston.

Since you are using your car primarily for track use, I would strongly recommend that you step up to pads that are "track only" - such as the Cobalt Spec VR, the Porterfield R4, etc. Call Andie at Cobalt and he'll fix you up with better pads, that will stand up to your usage.
 
I just ordered a set of Panther+ pads. I will see how they hold up and then maybe try the Cobalt, Hawk,....

Ken, my X is still my daily driver but I need pads that will hold up under track conditions.
 
NO / YES

Porterfield is junk.

Strongly disagree.

Get Carbotech. Not only they are great.....

Strongly agree.

I run Carbotech Panther Plus on the front and Porterfield R4S in the rear. I have been on this combination for three years with my Brembo Lotus brakes - great results.

Oh, and guess who turned me onto this pad mix? Andie Lin, when he used to be with Carbotech.
 
Re: Brake Pads

Peter Mills said:
mark:
Summit Point is a perfect example. Turn one comes at the end of 3700 foot straight you're braking from 140 mph to 40mph so you can turn into one.
Click to expand...

Hot dang... I was only hittin about 125.... of course that was my first time on that track too... guess I still got a good ways to go..

:(

-x-
 
MarkB said:
I just ordered a set of Panther+ pads. I will see how they hold up and then maybe try the Cobalt, Hawk,....

Ken, my X is still my daily driver but I need pads that will hold up under track conditions.
Click to expand...
The Panther Plus pads will hold up on the track, but they will squeal A LOT on the street. I speak from personal experience.

I've been using the Cobalt GT Sport pads lately, as a "street/track pad". They are holding up very well on the track, without a whole lot of squealing on the street.
 
Mark, you made the right choice with the Panther Plus.

The temp range for Panther Plus is higher than Cobalt GT. It is from 150F (contrary to many who claim they need to be heated I have had no problem on initial bite) and up to 1250F with a friction coefficient from 0.54-0.56. The key to their effectiveness and minimizing squeel is proper embedding. And for some, not mixing pads may be important though this is not critical.

Cobalt Frictions may have great products but unfortunately, thus far Andie has not offered a match to the Carbotech Panther Plus. The GT has a temp range from 75F (normal street driving temps) up to 950F but the friction coefficient is only 0.48. Hawk Blue is the closest offering to Panther Plus on Andie's web but needs to be warmed up for initial bite.

Both Carbotech and Coblat Friction have been sponsors of local NSXCA events. Carbotech Eng was a significant sponsor of NSXPO 2003.

HTH
 
Hrant said:
The key to their effectiveness and minimizing squeel is proper embedding.
Click to expand...
Proper bedding is important for any brake pad, not just for effectiveness, but also for avoiding shudder by depositing a uniform layer of pad material on the surface of the rotor. However, I have found from experience that the Panther Plus will still squeal big-time even with proper bedding.

Hrant said:
Cobalt Frictions may have great products but unfortunately, thus far Andie has not offered a match to the Carbotech Panther Plus.
Click to expand...
Not true. Cobalt offers the Spec B brake pad, which has a coefficient of friction of 0.58m and a temperature range of 200-1100F, which makes it similar to the Panther Plus. The Cobalt part number CRB.ITRB.D503 will fit the NSX, even though the NSX isn't listed there.

However, as long as you are going to swap pads for the track, which would be appropriate for any of these aggressive, noisy pads, I would recommend the even grippier Cobalt Spec VR pad, which has a coefficient of friction of 0.64 and a temperature range of 350-1550F.

I am using the Cobalt GT Sport pads because I would prefer not to change pads for the track, and am willing to give up a small amount of grip in exchange for a noise-free ride on the street. If I wanted to switch pads for the track (or use my car for the track only, and trailer it to events), then I would be using the Cobalt Spec VR pad.
 
nsxtasy said:
However, I have found from experience that the Panther Plus will still squeal big-time even with proper bedding.
Click to expand...

it's interesting that you say that. Only b/c i was at the track recently and there were 2 nsx's... both had carbotech panther +'s.... while one squeeked and other didn't..

how's that possible?

-x-
 
VBNSX said:
it's interesting that you say that. Only b/c i was at the track recently and there were 2 nsx's... both had carbotech panther +'s.... while one squeeked and other didn't..

how's that possible?
Click to expand...
Maybe because one was moving and the other one was parked? :D

Seriously, it's more likely due to temperature differences. The Panther Plus squeals more when used on the street (when it's relatively colder) than it does on the track.
 
Just got off the phone with Carbotech and they said that they have NO reason nor understanding of why some squeel and some don't. They've basically given up on trying to find out why.

heh.. go figure.

-x-
 
Re: Re: Brake Pads

VBNSX said:
Hot dang... I was only hittin about 125.... of course that was my first time on that track too... guess I still got a good ways to go..
Click to expand...

Don't put too much stock in how fast someone says they go on the track. Track junkies talking about how fast they go are as bad as fishermen talking about how big the one that got away was. I hear, all the time, people say: blah blah blah and I hit 150 and blah blah blah. :D
 
VBNSX and Donymo: Agreed- the "I hit xxx mph" statement only indicates top speed which is but one way to measure speed on the track. Total lap time (and consistent lap times at that) are truer indicators of speed. BTW- I did about 4 YEARS of lap days before I had my laps timed. There are SO many things to learn in the beginning. ....and lap days (HPDE's) are not a race or timed event. There's a reason for that- concentrating on your lap time only early on can perhaps lead you to do unwise things. It's better to concentrate on technique, smoothness etc.

VBNSX- looking forward to meeting you at Summit Pt. or VIR sometime. Perhaps this fall.
 
I may regret this, but

I used the speed 140 MPH as a reference to the front straight of Summit Point and braking required for entry into turn one at 40 mph and it's effect on brake pads that are partially worn. I did not use that example to impress anyone with my driving ability but as an explaination why different track lay-outs put more wear on brake pads than others so that VBNSX would have a better awareness of his brake's possible limitations.
Unfortunately Newbee's are very impressed with speed not realizing that straight line speed is built from corner exit speed (turn 10 Summit Point), technique and experience.
VBNSX the more you track your car and develope your skills the less you'll be amazed at the speed of others. It's not the gas pedal that brings down lap times...it's the brakes.
VBNSX and Donymo come to NSXPO 2004 at Watkins Glen October 8-12 and then Summit Point with Trackmasters on October 25-26.
 
I'll definitely be at NSXPO and Watkins..... I can't wait. I actually have the track elevation map and track data sheet hanging at my desk right next to my monitor. I think I already have the course memorized... :p

-x-
 

Similar threads

ArloNSX
The trials and tribulations of 0266
Replies
8
Views
421
ArloNSX
ArloNSX
dadoke
92 Formula Red
Replies
5
Views
260
dadoke
dadoke
MotorMouth93
Building a 6-speed from scratch.
Replies
16
Views
865
MotorMouth93
MotorMouth93
TANTO
ALUMINUM POLISHING DIY
Replies
5
Views
183
Honcho
Honcho
Superhatch
*SOLD* 1992 Red/Black Mechanics Special, 192k miles, 5 speed, 35k. JH4NA1157NT000763
Replies
10
Views
2K
my_Jdm
M
Back
Top