Too much suspension, too little knowledge

TURBO2GO

TURBO2GO

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I recently picked up a used set of KW competition coilovers from Detlef from Procar Germany. All I know about this set is that it was used on an NSX-R by Honda Racing in Europe and the car was ran and tuned on the Nurburgring.

Now I have this... thing.... on my hands, I really don't know what to do with. I don't know the spring rates. I am assuming this thing may be REALLY low as it is, and may knock my teeth loose on street driving. I don't know what the settings on it are, nor how to adjust them. All I see is a gold and purple tuning screw, don't know what they do.

The shocks say "VR" and "VL" and "HR" and "HL". I am assuming L is left and R is right, the V and the H are German for front and rear?

How should I go about this now? I usually have my acura serviced at Mechanics Direct, my local NSX shop. Will he know how to install these remote reservoir shocks? Do I need to get them tuned after? Should I have the springs tested first? who does that? Should I have them checked out some place for issues first? Are there longer lines to put the reservoirs some place other than inside the wheel well? Where do these go?

These things cost 10,000 euro now. I am hoping I can get a good tune with them for street/track and have a decent ride. I am assuming they are as good or better than a Mouton or JRZ. They certainly cost more originally. As I understand there is less than 10K Kilometers on these. They are LIGHT!

KW.jpg
 
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Funny thing, on at least one I can take the spring and wiggle it around with my hand. It's not sandwiched that tightly in there, even though it looks like the base thingie under the spring is screwed to near the top of the damper. Are these springs just that short? If I lower the purple ring that the base of the spring sits on, the spring is going to be completely loose? :confused:
 
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Congrats on your purchase of the purple and gold :biggrin: You really bleed Laker colors with your shoes and suspension. ;)

All kidding aside Dave, once you get them installed you do need to get them corner weighted, aligned and balanced with you sitting in the car....or the guy doing the alignment and corner weighting has weights he can put in that is your weight.....ie sand bags or something equal to your weight.....probably best if you just sit in the car while he does it.

Once the car is set to neutral you can go from there in dialing it in.

You will need to get everything re dialed in since that suspension was previously set up for the other car with the other drivers weight in mind and of course whatever particular track they were running.

I am sure Billy can chime in further as far as how many clicks to start off with for street/ sometimes track use.

Your car will feel very planted once you get that suspension put in and dialed....(ie nosedive, bodyroll etc) Just with good suspension, brakes, and a good set of new tires that can shave seconds off your time at the track.

KW competitions are pretty much on the same level as the JRZ, Motons, Penskes, Ohlins etc....all the high end stuff are pretty even....everyone will have their own preference......
 
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First of all I am painting them green now that you mentioned they are Lakers' colors... Good God... now they will probably quit on me halfway around the track.

The right one will probably cheat on its spring and try to do the caliper up the butt... hehe

I don't know where I can get corner balancing and stuff here. I guess I will really have to ask around. How far "off" can it be already? I mean it was on the 2002 NSX-R production prototype.
 
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TURBO2GO said:
First of all I am painting them green now that you mentioned they are Lakers' colors... Good God... now they will probably quit on me halfway around the track.

The right one will probably cheat on its spring and try to push its mounting bolt up the caliper's butt... hehe

I don't know where I can get corner balancing and stuff here. I guess I will really have to ask around. How far "off" can it be already? I mean it was on the 2002 NSX-R production prototype.
Click to expand...

The right guy that will do it in your area will have worked on race cars, track prepped street cars etc. Ask some of your track instructors on where to get the corner weighting and alignment done.

I gave you some info so check your pm.

Also it can be way off since the weight on your car with you in it is much different than a stripped out race car. Example your car weighs 3000lbs plus your weight at 6'2 450lbs? :confused:

Versus a 2500 lbs nsx with a 150 lb euro guy in it. :tongue:

If you repaint the suspension then it will devalue it even more and it might even pop and elbow on the car next to you at the track.....you might get suspended for one track day.

You need to get it re-dialed trust me. :smile:
 
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BALLER!

Those are three way adjustables. The problem is that you don't yet know how to drive, let alone realize how you need to adjust the suspension to fix problem areas. So.... get yourself a base setup, don't screw with it and learn how to drive and then when you are ready you will have the tools (3 way KWs) to fine tune the handling. In the mean time, start reading about suspension tuning - specifically rebound, and high and low speed compression. BUT DON"T SCREW WITH YOUR BASE SETUP. It won't magically make you faster, it will only make a better driver faster.

For example - I have students that tell me their car oversteers like crazy. We get in the car and they lift in the middle of a turn when they realize they are coming in too hot. The problem is not the car's setup, it's the driver's technique. Get my drift? Learn to drive the car well, and also learn the difference between turn entry push, mid-corner, push, track out oversteer ect. Then you will have the knowledge and vocabulary to start to learn how to work with adjusting your suspension.

http://www.racelinecentral.com/RacingSetupGuide.html

http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm
 
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Jim should I just leave it alone and put it in? I mean someone at Honda Racing set this thing up to run on the ring. I don't even know how to get a "base" setup. I know this this way overkill for my driving skills but it was a great deal on a very rare suspension and so I just went for it. I wonder if there is a place I can get some sort of setup manual. Should I call KW? I am sure Billy will chime in soon with some info.

I did enroll in Skip Barber by the way late this year so I am not ignoring my driving skill, I just saw this setup for sale and I was like "how often does this come along". Those are great links thanks!
 
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TURBO2GO said:
I mean someone at Honda Racing set this thing up to run on the ring. I don't even know how to get a "base" setup.
Click to expand...

Cool - If it hasn't been touched since running on the "ring," then the first thing I would do is get a piece of paper and record all the settings...

For each coilover, and each dampening adjustment on it, count all the "clicks" from how you bought it to full clockwise or full counterclockwise. That way you'll always have a base "how you purchased it" to go back to. Even the length of each coilover....

Be careful turning (don't force) the adjustments since you can damage them (it's a simple dashpot design). Especially when you get near full in.

Dave
 
Mac is right. Record the settings. But what they are set at might not be even close to optimum for you or your car. The reason I make the distinction is that your car is way different from the NSX-R they came off of as well, your driving style will be way different than a professional driver. Or for that matter, any different number of drivers. For example - it may be setup for someone who likes to trail brake into turns, or it might be setup for a driver that likes it loose.

So... record the settings and probably talk to Billy since I believe they are running 3-way KWs on the FXMD car now. And even though his setup will be vastly different that yours (their car is a lot lighter, bigger slicks and a hella lot more power) he knows the suspension and can give you a ball park to start with.

ONE WORD OF ADVICE - don't obsess with fiddling with the settings - there is no magic setting. Drive the car and enjoy. :smile:
 
Yeah AFAIK this came off the car in the exact configuration it was running on the ring... which means it's probably stiffer than Tiger Woods at the Pink Elephant. I don't know the spring rates they may be way up there. I guess I try it out and see. I will record settings per your suggestions.
 
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Uhhh,did you contact detlif? he can probably answer 99% of your ?'s. Finding a good race shop with corner balance and track experience is what I would be looking for. Why Dave would you buy a complex 3 way adjustable susp without educating yourself on springrates and shock tuning. At this point I would start googling all these topics and start absorbing.
 
Ask Billy if KW marks their springs - Eibach prints them on the actual coils, and Hypercoil engraves them on the end (flat part) that sits on the perch.

They might be stiff and they might not, depends on the track (Neurburgring isn't the smoothest track in the world) and their setup ideology. I bet you that Honda's NSX-R that lapped the ring was using different springs than the standard 550/450. Where they stiffer or softer? Who knows...

As far as ride harshness, springs are only half the equation. Guarantee that those KWs give a better street ride even if they are running 1000+ than the off the shelf NSX-R suspension. Has to do with the shock dampening. :biggrin:
 
Very cool. Congrats on the purchase.

You might want to have the shocks dyno'd and rebuilt (if necessary) before having them installed, especially if you're paying someone to install them.

BTW, those springs look stiff, really stiff. I bet those tenders are fully compressed when the car is at rest.
 
docjohn said:
Uhhh,did you contact detlif? he can probably answer 99% of your ?'s. Finding a good race shop with corner balance and track experience is what I would be looking for. Why Dave would you buy a complex 3 way adjustable susp without educating yourself on springrates and shock tuning. At this point I would start googling all these topics and start absorbing.
Click to expand...

Detlef doesn't know the spring rates. I asked. He said they were thoroughly checked by KW and are in perfect working order. No need for any work.

The springs do have stamps on them:

Top smaller springs are stamped: KW 20-60-80
Bottom fronts stamped: KW 220-140
Bottom rears stamped: KW 170-140

Why did I buy these?

1) I remember Billy saying it's all in the damper and that you can have a track setup perform very well AND give a great street ride so long as the system is a good one. I don't think they get better than this one.

2) The adjustability is something I will figure out and learn over time. Better to have too much adjustability than not enough. If I can't set it, someone else can.

3) I won't need to ever upgrade these.

4) I can sell them for just as much as I paid later if I don't like them.

5) I like rare really high quality parts.

6) Perry the blue loving fairy said "what are you nuts? I'd grab those in a heartbeat".... of course he was spending my money.
 
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fair enough,maybe will will meet at a track somewhere,if so I would really want to drive your car to feel how this all works.
 
docjohn said:
fair enough,maybe will will meet at a track somewhere,if so I would really want to drive your car to feel how this all works.
Click to expand...

OK but I don't want to catch you painting my wiper blades yellow while I went to the bathroom.
 
Nah not with a silver car....hm....green might be nice on silver..you could call your car the "snot":wink:
 
TURBO2GO said:
2) The adjustability is something I will figure out and learn over time. Better to have too much adjustability than not enough. If I can't set it, someone else can.
Click to expand...

There is also a downside to adjustablity.

- the Zanardi/Type S-zero/Type R/OEM have been sorted out over thousands of hours of development, modeling and actual track time.

- it's going to take you awhile to learn to be able to communicate with who ever is going to set these up. You have to be able to tell them what the car is doing. And that's a hard thing to do as you have to be able to determine what's the suspension faults vs what are your faults. The best thing you can do is have a very experienced driver take some fast laps in it and take notes to give to your suspension engineer so he knows what to try and adjust.

But what do I know - I'm still playing with setup on my JRZs and they are only dual adjustable. :biggrin:
 
Well maybe Billy can drive the car and set them up for me then. And I will grow into them. I could use a few lessons from him anyway.
 
most people already gave you good advices.

I have to add when i look at your picture, where is the spacers at the bottom mount, my custom Koni 2812 are like that too, and you should have some sort of spacers sandwiching the shock between the suspension arm bracket.

I would be incline to just drive the car as-is. Then go backwards (soft) if you feeling it too much understeer or oversteer. I know this is not the common setup procedure, but your suspension set up "supposed" to be already dialed in. Common set up procedure should be at the softest, then stiffen it up as needed.
 

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