The Official 2013 F1 Thread...

I agree Sab, is only good in the current RB chassis, his time with Toro Rosso was not very good (I believe one win in changing conditions). I still say next year with different Engineering challenges with new Engine and Regulations for 2014. The Team that gets a good understanding of these changes will dominate next year, and I don't see RB being that Team.
Sab did hint of this,during his cool down lap when thanking his team.

Bram
 
The Team that gets a good understanding of these changes will dominate next year, and I don't see RB being that Team.
Sab did hint of this,during his cool down lap when thanking his team.

Bram
That was a rather profound little impromptu speech he said there. I wonder if that's because he's already expecting next year to be the end of RB dominance.
 
That was a rather profound little impromptu speech he said there. I wonder if that's because he's already expecting next year to be the end of RB dominance.

4 Consecutive World's Driver and Manufacturer Championships is a dynasty, and at some point the dynasty will end. I'm not sure it is over for RB, unless they lose key players to the team (and I don't mean Mark Weber); even though the formula changes dramatically next year. The new engine could alter or level the field but I, sadly, expect RB to be the team to beat next season. Ferrari fell apart this season, but have been on a slow downward slope since their dynasty ended. I hope they have bottomed out and will start back up. McLaren fell very fast, perhaps they treated this year as a throw away focussing on next year, but they haven't been the same organiztion since Ron Dennis left. Lotus and Mercedes are unknown as they seem to have a lot of churn in their organizations.

Miner
 
I put my money on Adrian. As long as Seb follows him, he'll be a champ again(sad to say). And we will be trying to figure out why the car is so quick on the sideline.
Ferrari needs someone in charge who is not an Italian to be competitive again. Ron Dennis is much more anal than Martin and you would think Ron still has a lot of cloud even though he is retired.:frown:
 
Ferrari needs someone in charge who is not an Italian to be competitive again. Ron Dennis is much more anal than Martin and you would think Ron still has a lot of cloud even though he is retired.:frown:

Perhaps Ferrari can find another short Frenchman to run the team.

Even though Ron Dennis has some influence, I think his day to day management is the missing ingredient.

Miner
 
I agree Sab, is only good in the current RB chassis, his time with Toro Rosso was not very good (I believe one win in changing conditions). I still say next year with different Engineering challenges with new Engine and Regulations for 2014. The Team that gets a good understanding of these changes will dominate next year, and I don't see RB being that Team.
Sab did hint of this,during his cool down lap when thanking his team.

Bram

I am not sure how you can say that. Vettle has proven time and again how quick he is. Look at Torro Rosso the two previous years: In 2006 they finished 9th in constructors points. Luizzi 19th drivers and Speed 20th drivers. In 2007 they finished 7th in constructors points (Vettle provided them the points in the last few races when he replaced Speed) Liuzzi 18th and Speed 21st. In 2008 Vettle raced full time for TR. They placed higher than they ever had in the constructors points (6th) and Vettle utterly destroyed the reigning IndyCar Champion Seb Bourdais in the same car and ended up 8th in the drivers points (1 pole/1 Win) and Bourdais finished 17th. That was the highest of any driver for any form of that team (Minardi/Torro Rosso)

Yes, Vettle has had the best car for a while now but he has also made the best use of it.
 
By last Ross Brown's story possible is that RB loses dominance next year.
Let's believe him and wait for 2014. more interesting.Hope James Allison know what is doing on new car.
 
I am not sure how you can say that. Vettle has proven time and again how quick he is. Look at Torro Rosso the two previous years: In 2006 they finished 9th in constructors points. Luizzi 19th drivers and Speed 20th drivers. In 2007 they finished 7th in constructors points (Vettle provided them the points in the last few races when he replaced Speed) Liuzzi 18th and Speed 21st. In 2008 Vettle raced full time for TR. They placed higher than they ever had in the constructors points (6th) and Vettle utterly destroyed the reigning IndyCar Champion Seb Bourdais in the same car and ended up 8th in the drivers points (1 pole/1 Win) and Bourdais finished 17th. That was the highest of any driver for any form of that team (Minardi/Torro Rosso)
Yes, Vettle has had the best car for a while now but he has also made the best use of it.

I have to agree with this statement. I've been told Vettel has a work ethic like Michael Schumacher. Going over setups, tires, and things, over and over again well into the night. He is the only driver on the current grid who invested time at the Pirelli tire factory and spoke to engineers about compounds etc. to great length. So I'm not surprised he and his car are miles above the rest. The only thing that will shut him down is his own motivation. He's going to dominate again next year.
 
I agree Sab, is only good in the current RB chassis, his time with Toro Rosso was not very good (I believe one win in changing conditions). I still say next year with different Engineering challenges with new Engine and Regulations for 2014. The Team that gets a good understanding of these changes will dominate next year, and I don't see RB being that Team.
Sab did hint of this,during his cool down lap when thanking his team.

Bram

You be-little Vettel. He actually won a race in the Toror Rosso, regardless of the changing conditions. No argument he is in the best car, and even I suspect with better enhancements than Webber runs, but the fact remains, when it needs to be done, on the Sunday, on the track, he delivers consistently and almost flawlessly. Would Alonso or Hamilton do better than Webber? Perhaps, but not to the degree you may think. Hamilton is, like Webber, struggling on the latest Pirelli tyres, so I don't think over a season, he would have done much better than Webber, so that leaves Alonso, and we all know what he was like when he had a competitive driver in the team car! :D Raikenon I don't think would fare as well because he doesn't work on getting the team behind him, which Vettel excels at.

I believe Vettel has already proven he is the equal of Schumacher at least!
 
You be-little Vettel. He actually won a race in the Toror Rosso, regardless of the changing conditions. No argument he is in the best car, and even I suspect with better enhancements than Webber runs, but the fact remains, when it needs to be done, on the Sunday, on the track, he delivers consistently and almost flawlessly. Would Alonso or Hamilton do better than Webber? Perhaps, but not to the degree you may think. Hamilton is, like Webber, struggling on the latest Pirelli tyres, so I don't think over a season, he would have done much better than Webber, so that leaves Alonso, and we all know what he was like when he had a competitive driver in the team car! :D Raikenon I don't think would fare as well because he doesn't work on getting the team behind him, which Vettel excels at.

I believe Vettel has already proven he is the equal of Schumacher at least!

He is good. I don't think he is the equal of Schumacher though, and lets not even mention Senna.
 
Vettel is now better than Schumacher?

C'mon guys, let's just enjoy a team's utter and total dominance while it lasts. Seems every F1 generation says "their" driver is better than the last. Schumacher had better stats than Senna (in most regards) and yet can anyone really say Schumacher is better? Not by a long shot. Can anyone say Senna was better than Fangio? Okay, that's a little closer. But the point remains that they are all in different cars, different generations, different sets of rules.

Vettel's image issue is his own doing. I kinda like his calculated ruthlessness on track but his deceptive "good guy" pretense got old quickly…and the embrace of him as the best ever even quicker. Especially considering how much better the car is than everyone else's.

Meh, I'm just waiting until 2015. I think I'll start the thread right now. ;)
 
A long article from Winding Road on why Vettel is so fast. Maybe we can learn a thing or two by Ross Bentley.

If Sebastian Vettel cares whether he’s considered one of the all-time greats of Formula One, he needs to drive, and win, for another team. One of the things that established Michael Schumacher as a great, and perhaps the greatest, is that he won for two different teams. Even more importantly, Schumacher made these teams winners. Before he joined Benetton and then Ferrari, neither team was World Championship-winning caliber.

Vettel’s reputation is tied to the Red Bull car’s superiority, and much of the credit goes to technical director, Adrian Newey. Would Sebastian Vettel have won four World Championships had he been driving for another team, without Adrian Newey? We don’t know.

We do know that there’s no doubt about Vettel’s speed. He’s currently one of, if not the, fastest driver in F1. And whether he was driving the Red Bull or any other car on the grid, there’s no denying that fact.


So…what makes Vettel so fast?

In the past couple of months, I’ve heard dozens of theories about this. Some of them are solely focused on his car. But some dig into his driving technique, trying to analyze what he specifically does that makes him faster than everyone else.

Obviously, any form of racing, and especially F1, is all about teamwork. The “teamwork” between car and driver is difficult to understand because only one of those two can respond when you ask it questions (even Kimi Raikkonen answers when asked!).


We know that some cars work better for some drivers than they do for others. And vice versa: some drivers work better with a car that handles a certain way than another driver does.

There’s no doubt that Vettel’s Red Bull works well for him, and likely better than for his teammate, Mark Webber.

Let’s look at that for a moment. Webber was at Red Bull before Vettel joined the team. But over time, it’s obvious that the team has rallied around Vettel, and it’s generally accepted that he gets the most attention. And many have said that the Red Bull technical team, led by Adrian Newey, likely builds the cars to suit Vettel’s driving. I’d even suggest that one of Newey’s greatest talents is building cars that best take advantage of his driver’s style.

One could claim that having a car developed to best suit a particular driver’s style is unfair, and many would respond by saying that fairness has no place in F1 – it’s all about doing what it takes to win. I could argue, though, that getting the team to build a car that suits his style is a smart move on Vettel’s part, and kudos to him for motivating a team of people to give him what he needs to win. It’s not like Vettel is bribing the team with cash to give him an edge (well, not directly, anyway, as I’m sure team members receive bonuses when Vettel racks up another World Championship).

Former Jordan, Stewart, and Jaguar F1 technical director, Gary Anderson, shared his thoughts on why the Red Bull may have a technical advantage in an interesting article for the BBC. [FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]Anderson claims that Red Bull uses a flexible “tea tray,” the flat (well, it’s supposed to be flat) plate under the front of the chassis that provides a significant portion of aerodynamic downforce. Based on his observations of some thermal video, he believes Newey has developed a method whereby the tea tray flexes upward, allowing them to run the car lower to the ground.[/FONT]

Does the Red Bull seem to have an advantage over other cars this season (and in the past few seasons)? For sure. Does that take anything away from what Vettel does in the car? Not in my mind. The best cars are rarely developed in a vacuum. They’re developed with a driver who provides great feedback to the engineers, even if this flexible tea tray approach seems like it was developed in the engineering office, wind tunnel and shop (or maybe Newey’s head).

Peter Windsor and Rob [FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]Wilson, two people I have immense respect for, talked about Vettel’s speed in a fascinating [/FONT]blog post and video[FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]. Windsor came across a photo of Vettel and another of Webber in the exact same spot at the Indian GP circuit. Interestingly, while Webber is [/FONT]looking through the right-hander[FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif] that he’s driving in at the instant the photo was taken, Vettel’s head is [/FONT]turned to the left[FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]. It appears he’s already finished looking through the right-hander, and is now looking ahead to the next left-hand turn. The conclusion that Windsor and Wilson come to is that Vettel looks further ahead than Webber—and perhaps other F1 drivers.[/FONT]

Another article, this time by James Allen, claims that Vettel’s speed is a result of his ability to time the way he applies the throttle, resulting in the blown exhaust gases creating increased downforce under the car, and managing wheelspin better. Of course, anyone who reads this opinion must wonder how he does that, and how he learned to do it! My take is that he’s more adaptable.

Which brings me to my theory about Vettel’s speed.

Sebastian Vettel senses what the car needs slightly sooner than other drivers (specifically, Webber, since he’s the only one who can be compared on equal terms), and then adapts his driving to it. But how?

Could it be that Vettel’s relatively younger age is an advantage? I think so. All drivers build mental programming for how they drive. That’s what a driver’s style is—a preferred technique. Fernando Alonso has a different driving style from Vettel, as evidenced by his extremely quick (some would say almost violent) steering movements. The key is that Vettel is not set in his ways. He’s still developing some of his programming.

If you look back through F1 history, it’s rare (but not unheard of) that any one driver has had as consistently a strong car—perhaps even an advantage over others—at such a young age, while he was still developing his style, while he was still so flexible with his driving technique. Most young F1 drivers are in developing teams (Emerson Fittipaldi is an example of the opposite, like Vettel—a young driver with the best car when driving for Lotus and McLaren). So, while their driving style is developing, they’re driving cars that are not as superior as the Red Bull currently is. By the time they find themselves in the best cars, their driving styles have progressed to the point where they’re more set in their ways. And, if the car suits their style, great—they’re off to winning a World Championship. If their style does not suit the car as well, they will not win.

Jenson Button is a good example of this. When he came into F1, at about the same age, experience level, and demonstration of speed that Vettel has been at over the past four years, he drove for teams with cars that were not superior, and perhaps even a step below the best. By the time his style had become more set in concrete, he was in competitive cars. And the one season that he had a strong car which suited his style, he won the World Championship.

Vettel’s situation may be one of those rare combinations of everything converging at the right time: a talented driver whose style is still flexible enough to learn and adapt to changing tire designs/construction and aerodynamic rules; a superior car; and a technical director who has a knack for adapting his cars to suit his driver.

And one more thing: Vettel’s current confidence level is something we’ve not consistently seen since Schumacher’s dominant years, and Ayrton Senna’s before that. While it’s hard to imagine any F1 driver not having incredibly strong belief in themselves, you might be surprised just how fragile their confidence can be—especially when you realize that even one percent doubt can have a huge difference at the pointy end of the grid.

So what makes Vettel so fast?


  • · His ability to inspire and motivate the team to build a car to best suit him.
  • · His car, and specifically, Adrian Newey’s ability to tune the car to suit him.
  • · His ability to sense what the car needs and adapt his style to suit it.
  • · His youth and adaptability—and not being set in his ways.
  • · His confidence level.

Will this convergence of talent, adaptability, youth, confidence and technical superiority come along again in the future? Who knows? But it seems likely. Many would welcome a new combination next year to make F1 more interesting; they don’t want another season of Vettel/Red Bull domination. Perhaps the major changes in technical rules for the 2014 season will be just what’s needed to shake things up.

[FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]But I predict that Vettel will continue to learn and adapt more quickly than others, and his domination will continue. And perhaps Vettel’s style will continue to be one of adapting. Which will be bad news for his competitors—whatever he team he might be driving for in the future.[/FONT]

[FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]WDIK, I believe Vettel's car has no brake [/FONT][FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif]pedal.[/FONT][FONT=HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif] [/FONT]
 
Quick, where is BD to hijack the thread with Senna vs Schumacher stats!

How'd you like the race? Are your ears still ringing?

Miner


The race was amazing, loved it!! The best part was the beginning. As for my ears, they're good. The noise wasn't that bad, but then again I was used to fighter jets launching one after another, especially after 9/11 at MCAS Miramar. F-18's were launching one after another, round the clock for weeks. Can't wait to go back next year, but this time, I think I'm gonna get grand stand tickets.
 
The race was amazing, loved it!! The best part was the beginning. As for my ears, they're good. The noise wasn't that bad, but then again I was used to fighter jets launching one after another, especially after 9/11 at MCAS Miramar. F-18's were launching one after another, round the clock for weeks. Can't wait to go back next year, but this time, I think I'm gonna get grand stand tickets.

Glad you enjoyed it. I hung out around turn 19 most of the time. Saturday had perfect weather but on Sunday it would have been nice to be in the stands. I went GA for last year's F1, Moto GP, but sat in the grand stands during the recent LeMans race at COTA (GA allowed you to sit anywhere since it wasn't too crowded). It's nice having seats when you want them. I definitely prefer Moto GP both watching and at the track because it's much less crowded, but both are fun. LeMans allowed us to hang out in the pits, walk the track, etc. which was a pleasant experience.
 
Glad you enjoyed it. I hung out around turn 19 most of the time. Saturday had perfect weather but on Sunday it would have been nice to be in the stands. I went GA for last year's F1, Moto GP, but sat in the grand stands during the recent LeMans race at COTA (GA allowed you to sit anywhere since it wasn't too crowded). It's nice having seats when you want them. I definitely prefer Moto GP both watching and at the track because it's much less crowded, but both are fun. LeMans allowed us to hang out in the pits, walk the track, etc. which was a pleasant experience.


First half of the race I spent it at Turn 1, second half was split between Turn 3 and Turn 16.
 
A long article from Winding Road on why Vettel is so fast. Maybe we can learn a thing or two by Ross Bentley. If Sebastian Vettel cares .............I believe Vettel's car has no brake

A great post!
I've often wondered why he's so fast.
A lot of it is pure mental skill it seems
 
Vettel is now better than Schumacher?

C'mon guys, let's just enjoy a team's utter and total dominance while it lasts. Seems every F1 generation says "their" driver is better than the last. Schumacher had better stats than Senna (in most regards) and yet can anyone really say Schumacher is better? Not by a long shot. Can anyone say Senna was better than Fangio? Okay, that's a little closer. But the point remains that they are all in different cars, different generations, different sets of rules.

Vettel's image issue is his own doing. I kinda like his calculated ruthlessness on track but his deceptive "good guy" pretense got old quickly…and the embrace of him as the best ever even quicker. Especially considering how much better the car is than everyone else's.

Meh, I'm just waiting until 2015. I think I'll start the thread right now. ;)

Didn't say better, but equal yes. Schumacher had a car advantage in the Benneton [illegal active suspension anyone?], and eventually a huge car advantage in the Ferrari, a car designed around his driving style, and tyres to suit him to boot! So yes, Vettel has a car advantage, but it was so for Senna when he was winning his World Championships. It has always been thus.

I was at Turn 1 for the 2004 F1 Melbourne race, sitting in the stands waiting for opening practice. The cars duly came out to play one by one. Finally Barrichello, in the other Ferrari, went by, noticeably quicker than anyone else had been through that corner up till then. A non motorsport person I was with even commented on why did the Ferrari seem so much quicker than the rest of the field, it was that noticeable. Then finally last out of the pits came M Schumacher, and he was even quicker than Barrichello! Indeed his first flying lap, in 1st Practice, was quicker than the previous year's fastest lap. Don't tell me about unfair car advantage :)

And finally Schumacher was notorious for ensuring his team mates were deprived of seat time during pre-season testing. Indeed I have read [many years ago now] that Eddie Irvine did only a handfull of laps in pre-season testing in deference to Schumacher so that the chassis could be fine tuned to Schumacher's driving style, without any possible input from Irvine.
 
And finally Schumacher was notorious for ensuring his team mates were deprived of seat time during pre-season testing. Indeed I have read [many years ago now] that Eddie Irvine did only a handfull of laps in pre-season testing in deference to Schumacher so that the chassis could be fine tuned to Schumacher's driving style, without any possible input from Irvine.

Some of the best racing I'd ever seen: Schumacher in the Fezza and Hakkinen/Cardboard in the Macca. Better driver in 2nd best car. Best car driven by 2nd best driver (by ever so slim a margin). Loved it.

Agree with everything in your post sans vettel being equal to Schumacher. The fanboi overload makes me want to puke.
 
Some of the best racing I'd ever seen: Schumacher in the Fezza and Hakkinen/Cardboard in the Macca. Better driver in 2nd best car. Best car driven by 2nd best driver (by ever so slim a margin). Loved it.

Agree with everything in your post sans vettel being equal to Schumacher. The fanboi overload makes me want to puke.

Hope the Vettel fanboi reference isn't aimed at me? I'm an Aussie Webber fan!! :D
 
Hope the Vettel fanboi reference isn't aimed at me? I'm an Aussie Webber fan!! :D

Of course it was! ;) You should despise the guy more than the rest of the world combined then.

Webber was and is a class act. The way he handled himself after vittles stole his win was remarkable. He's going to a great racing organization.
 
Of course it was! ;) You should despise the guy more than the rest of the world combined then.

Webber was and is a class act. The way he handled himself after vittles stole his win was remarkable. He's going to a great racing organization.


I'm with Ponyboy. BTW, Senna showed more talent in inferior equipment than Vettel has.

BTW, which MLP is your favorite Pony?
 
Back
Top