The NSX Registry

[lemansnsx]

Lud, If you intend to make this a world-wide registry, can we also have a section for the NSX race cars? I'd like, eventually, to document the history of the LeMans and ADAC series cars.

------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[Lud]

Good suggestion. Are there identifying numbers avaiable for the race cars? Do they maintain some sort of VIN or chassis # that we can find out about? I'm planning to have it identify cars by number.

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by Lud:
Good suggestion. Are there identifying numbers avaiable for the race cars? Do they maintain some sort of VIN or chassis # that we can find out about? I'm planning to have it identify cars by number.

Most (all?) of the cars that I am thinking about were built by TC Prototypes in England and have chassis numbers. FYI - racecars have chassis numbers in part because they have to carry FIA logbooks to document their eligibility/history. I've tried contacting TC Prototypes but only by e-mail and they were un-responsive. I think that with some more effort it should be possible to document a few of these cars and, once the registry is established and publicized, have the missing ones filled in.
I'm afraid that if this information isn't gathered now it may be lost and I'm looking at these cars being important in the future.


------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[NSX2398]

Lud, back in January, there was a post to the Prime Discussion forum that asked about whether a registry existed. There weren't many responses so I started thinking about what would be required to set one up and even did some rudimentary database design.

Today I realized that I'd forgotten to search the forums first and when I did so, I came across this very old thread about some efforts on your part to do so. What is the current status? I guess the other question I'd have is whether or not the NSXCA has such a registry (I'm not a member).

I was thinking that in addition to NSXPrime member volunteer participation, there are also a lot of other sources (which you might call 'sightings') such as eBay, classified ads, CARFAX, etc, which could be included although these would have to me manually added by volunteers 'mining' data on the web.

I think these would be valuable additions but because some of the data might be unreliable (even including information from Prime post-ers), I think we'd have to establish a hierarchy of 'certainty' based on various proof sources.

For example, at NSXpo events, we could capture some info as a byproduct of registration and then some known member of NSXCA could validate it, which would be establish a high level of proof. At a lower level might be CARFAX reports (if submitted by an NSXCA member; followed by CARFAX reports submitted by any Prime member; followed by things like classifieds or eBay sightings.

So far, I've spent most of my time thinking of just the DB format, not how you'd make it available to the NSX community. The intent wouldn't be to replace CARFAX but to provide a superset of that kind of function.

I think we might have to open up a debate about who could access; are there any security issues; should it be fee or free; etc., in addition to mundane technical questions like what db to use; how to make it web accessible; etc. But I'd be happen to contribute.

Even if you don't go ahead, I'm of the mind that I might start collecting it myself anyway since a lot of it is already in the public domain.

...Ian

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- Ian
91 Blk/Blk daily driver; 100K+ miles & still going strong

 

[PFORPAUL]

2398

I have been keeping "sighting"reports on a lot of cars. Currently I just use 3x5 cards.
NOW I just keep track of certain years.
Purpose-my list is more of a "do not buy
THIS car" wrecks/racing/mods etc.

Actually-there are not that many vin numbers
to track for U>S> cars.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSX2398:
I guess the other question I'd have is whether or not the NSXCA has such a registry (I'm not a member).

The NSX Club of America has a database of information supplied by members when they join; information is subsequently verified and updated each year by pre-printing it on the renewal notice and asking for changes and corrections. Information on cars includes year, exterior color, interior color, body style (coupe vs NSX-T), transmission type, and VIN. Completing this information is optional but most members do provide most of the information. As the current treasurer of the NSXCA, I maintain this database, which is kept in Microsoft Access.

All membership information received from members, including addresses, phone numbers, and car information, is considered private. It is available to other members for club purposes only. For example, if a club member in Denver wanted to organize a club dinner, and send out an e-mail announcement to all the club members in Colorado, he would have access to the e-mail addresses.

However, the member/car information - registry, if you will - is not available for private purposes. If, for example, someone approached me and asked for the telephone number of the current owner of NSX VIN JH4NA1151MT012345, I would not release that information, out of concern for the privacy of that owner. However, if there were a legitimate reason for getting in contact with the owner, I might be willing to forward the inquiry to that owner so that he might consider whether or not to respond to the individual, but he would be under no obligation to do so.

Originally posted by PFORPAUL:
my list is more of a "do not buy
THIS car" wrecks/racing/mods etc.

Similar to this list in the FAQ, I would imagine.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 01 March 2003).]

 

[Tom Larkins]

I had wondered why a registry hadn't been done in some fashion b/f I actually joined this forum and was rather suprised that something generic w/o privacy issues wasn't available in the NSXCA that could be supplyied on both sites. Its common knowledge its done w/other cars and very helpful. I think its a great idea that only betters the credibility or the car and helps in the marketplace.

 

[Lud]

After a few false starts I've actually made some good progress with this lately. I hope to have something available for testing and comment fairly soon.

 

[nsxtasy]

Regarding the use of the NSXCA information - if someone would like to put together a proposal describing exactly how it would work, how member privacy would be protected, what would be shown where, and who would do the work to implement it, display it on a website, and maintain it, I would be happy to forward the proposal to the board for its consideration.


[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 01 March 2003).]

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Regarding the use of the NSXCA information - if someone would like to put together a proposal describing exactly how it would work, how member privacy would be protected, what would be shown where, and who would do the work to implement it, display it on a website, and maintain it, I would be happy to forward the proposal to the board for its consideration.


[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 01 March 2003).]

The thing that will determine what proposal should be submitted to the NSXCA is what type of format Lud will use on this site and what type of info is shown and we don't know that yet.

NXSCA info will have to be private as far as email address and other personal info is concerned. I don't know how time consuming it is for the club to email its members to notify them that only info relating to the car itself and/or the member name (current owner)will be shared on the registry. If they wish to share the car history on the registry they can be instructed to do so in NSX Prime by joining the site if Lud provides the space for such.

As far as implementation of the data, again we don't know as of yet what is going to be shown. I would suggest a moderator to start, one that has the ability to imput after receiving it via email. Many here use Carfax, and while its not always reliable its at least a measure of the data if desired, but i'm not quite sure how Carfax works w/costs when its used so that many not be a good idea ? When the moderator gets the info he can post the VIN in the forum and someone always runs it just as a prospective buyer does in this forum now. Also the individual member of prime can input the info they have, except only they and the moderator can change it.

I would be happy to work out a proposal and help w/this. It can be done in a reasonable way that keeps the privacy of the Club members.

Just out of curiosity, how many cars do you think could be registerd between the NSXCA & Prime?

 

[cojones]

just curious, but has anyone approached Honda/Acura about possibly getting them to participate ??

On another car list I follow (similar low-production specialty Italian marque), they had a long-running grassroots international registry, but the manufacturer recently decided to build and host one of their own.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
The thing that will determine what proposal should be submitted to the NSXCA is what type of format Lud will use on this site and what type of info is shown and we don't know that yet.

Yes, it makes sense to wait and see how Lud implements it, and also what use is made of this information.

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
I don't know how time consuming it is for the club to email its members to notify them that only info relating to the car itself and/or the member name (current owner)will be shared on the registry.

I doubt that we would even want to share members' names without obtaining their permission on an individual basis. I suspect that many members would be opposed to any public display of their names or information about their ownership of an NSX.

Again, exactly what is being proposed - and what purposes it would serve - would need to be spelled out in the proposal. Frankly, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why I would want to reveal detailed information about my own NSX. All I have heard here is that some people think it would be "cool", and some people want to use it to keep track of whose NSXs are in poor condition, neither of which holds much appeal to me to participate. And I know for a fact that I am not as concerned over my own privacy as many of our club members are over theirs.

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
Just out of curiosity, how many cars do you think could be registerd between the NSXCA & Prime?

The NSXCA currently has 1039 members, of whom 33 have indicated that they do not own an NSX. Of the other 1006, 830 have provided their VIN. How many of those would be willing to participate? Well, (a) IF a complete proposal were submitted to the club's board, and (b) IF the proposal specified who was going to create a mailing to all club members, and (c) IF the proposal specified who was going to pay for this mailing (e-mail will not reach many club members, so a postal mailing would be needed), and (d) IF the proposal specified who was going to do the database work to implement the registry database and to enter all the information, and (e) IF the proposal specified how the information were to be kept up to date on an ongoing basis and who would be doing the associated work and paying for those costs, and (f) IF the proposal were accepted by a vote of the club's board, and (g) IF the mailing were sent to all 830 members asking their permission to use their car's information in a registry, how many of them would say yes? Your guess is as good as mine. If there is no compelling case made for how this effort would be of any significant benefit to the club, the club's members, or the owners who might participate in the registry, then my guess is, not very many.

Sorry to put a damper on things, but as I see it, if you can't convince me - a die-hard NSX enthusiast - of the value of including my car's information in a registry, I am not sure how you are going to convince a lot of other folks to participate. Perhaps I'm wrong about this. We can use Lud's efforts for NSXprime as a test case. Right now the NSXprime forums have 3542 members. Let's see how many of those decide to provide their NSX information for Lud's registry, and then go from there.

Originally posted by cojones:
(similar low-production specialty Italian marque)

There is no low-production specialty Italian marque which is similar to the NSX.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 02 March 2003).]

 

[NSX2398]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Frankly, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why I would want to reveal detailed information about my own NSX

In spite of the fact that I resurrected this topic, I have to agree with you .. I had not given much thought to the benefits or who would receive them and I'm not sure that the answer is obvious.

I'm certainly not an expert on the topic but I think that most registry's are started with the objective of documenting a car's history for the sole purpose of making valuations and/or subsequent buying decisions more informed. However, I don't deny that the ability to contact owners for any group-oriented purposes (such as local events; special vendor offers; etc) may be a useful thing.

The first of these is clearly one of those times when we contribute individually for the greater good of the community. This is not unlike the intent of NSXPrime itself, I think. Besides, we never know when we might be on the receiving end of this purchasing act either voluntarily or involuntarily (due to accident/theft/etc).

I'm not sure that we need to wait for Lud's offering in order to have the debate about what the value is or what should be public domain information and what should be private domain. In spite of whatever work he has put into it so far, I'm sure he would
not turn down suggestions from the group.

Having said that, it was my view that any current owner information (name, phone#, etc) would likely not be part of any publically available registry. However, NSXPrime id's; eBay id's; and I would suggest that even email id's should be appropriate since we allow email contact through Prime today. A person can chose to respond or ignore it and generally (hacking aside), no other personal information is available. I would also suggest that the owner's city name is likely acceptable (especially for event locale filtering) but not any other address info including phone number.

The topic of who would maintain it is thorny because I think most registry's are maintained by a recognized, formal, neutral organization (which in this case would suggest NSXCA) but it appears to me that the NSXCA only does things which benefit their members and are accessible to their members whereas much of the data in such a registry would be submitted from the larger community which would justifiable want access to it.

So I think the NSXCA would either have to be the collector/caretaker yet make it generally available, or maybe one or more people in the general community could be the collector/caretaker but have NSXCA be the 'validator' of some of it (as I mentioned in my first response) in addition to providing some of it on behalf of their members.

Although Prime could certainly be the point of access, I'm not suggesting that we would want to burden Lud with the task of creating/maintaining the information, although there would certainly have to be some co-ordination if he was to provide the access point.

Getting back to your original point, I'm not sure that any of the registry's provide a strong benefit to the individual owners and some of the information may have been collected without their participation but over time, I would hope that (a) if you have an adequate policy on what's private and what isn't, and (b) you make it easy enough for people to participate voluntarily, then I'd hope most would do it. If costs of contacting the NSXCA membership is an issue, I presume it would be acceptable to just include the request in any membership renewal mail-outs.

...Ian

------------------
- Ian
91 Blk/Blk daily driver; 100K+ miles & still going strong

 

[Tom Larkins]

I'll be the 1st to admit, I don't have knowledge how the nsxca works email to its members. My throught was as simple as a program to do it automatically if available. I wasn't aware how much manual imput would be needed by the club. I assumed that it could be possible to notify members if they wish to participate in the registry or as mentioned in the post above, notified when membership dues are up. Is it an option to provide space for such in the "NSX Driver" mag to atleast let members know the registry exists.

As far as a compelling reason for participation in a registry. I look at it this way. Everyone has heard of a Ferrari, or Porsche, both amoung other makes have a list/registry of some sort. The F & P cars have a established reputation in the market place. It doesn't matter if you like those cars or not, its a fact thats been built up over time and represents a loyalty to the brand and has established a tradition. We all know as owners the NSX is nearly bullet proof in reliability and preformance. The registry is only another tool to promote and establish the credibility of the car to those that don't know about the NSX and it provides something than can be built upon in the future if a 2nd generation model comes out. I wonder where the NSX would be today if Acura would have had such a thing when the car was first produced in terms of marketing. Would perception of the car been different today if the mother company would have asked dealers give info as part of delivery to each new car sold about a registry/NSXCA or even NSX Prime ? Who knows maybe the production levels would have been greater and changes in the car would have been made sooner if people with a interest in a reliable exotic knew what the heck it is. I don't care what other people think about me or my car when I drive it. I didn't buy it for that, but sometimes the comparisons get old. Accountability over time = credibility for the NSX. Its just a start but its worth a try isn't it ?

I'll wait to see what Lud is going to do w/this, maybe what i'm trying to say is pointless if interest is low.

 

[Andymi]

I am a member of the Grandsportregistry.com, a 1996 limited edition corvette site, and some information is public while some remains private to the car owners only.

You may want to look at that site as the guy who runs it has taken a lot of time putting it together.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Andymi:
I am a member of the Grandsportregistry.com, a 1996 limited edition corvette site, and some information is public while some remains private to the car owners only.

You may want to look at that site as the guy who runs it has taken a lot of time putting it together.

Thanks, Andymi! That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for, something that describes how a registry works and what its purpose is.

I should mention that I am already familiar with registries for certain low-production vehicles. These are typically done for vehicles with very low production numbers, where there are "imitation" cars that could potentially be passed off as genuine. The best example is the A/C Cobra (the real ones - the 289 and 427), for which I believe there have been lots more aftermarket kit cars sold than the real thing. There, the purpose of the registry is to provide the ability to distinguish the real ones by tracking their current ownership and provenance. This benefits the participants by providing a kind of certification that their car really is a genuine one. This may also be done for special low-volume versions of production cars, where there is a risk of non-examples having equipment added to make them look like one of the low-volume versions so that they can fetch a premium price on resale. I am not familiar with the Corvette market but it's possible that the Grand Sport registry serves this purpose.

However, the NSX market does not exhibit the characteristics that make a registry necessary to guarantee the genuineness of any example. I have yet to hear of an "imitation" NSX or a "kit" NSX. The production numbers of NSXs are plentiful compared with the dozens, at most hundreds of these low-volume models. And the Zanardi NSX does not sell at a premium sufficient to justify anyone spending money to pass off a non-Zanardi as a Zanardi.

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
Is it an option to provide space for such in the "NSX Driver" mag to at least let members know the registry exists.

Certainly - and that would probably be the easiest way to go about notifying club members of the existence of the registry, if it's up and running on NSXprime, and encouraging them to sign up if they're interested. The NSXCA and NSXprime (Lud) have a good relationship and we sometimes publicize each other's activities and features. Publicizing a registry on NSXprime would not require any kind of proposal or decision by the club's board of directors.

The big obstacle to using the NSXCA membership records is that the individual information that the club has collected from members was never intended to be available to the public or even to other members except for club-related purposes. Requiring participants to enter their information into a separate registry, and thereby make a deliberate decision regarding making information available to the public before entering it, eliminates those privacy issues entirely.

For example, I see on the Grand Sport registry site that they very clearly note who will have access to the information: "Please note: The information you provide below will be made available to other GSR members, except for your *address and *telephone number which is for Grand Sport Registry administrative office use only. This information will never be provided to third parties without your consent!" Thus, their registry information is available to members only, and some of the information is not even generally available to other members.

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
I'll wait to see what Lud is going to do w/this, maybe what i'm trying to say is pointless if interest is low.

And, if interest and participation are high, that can be noted in publicizing it in NSX Driver.

Let's see how it develops on NSXprime.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 03 March 2003).]